ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[Azzuri]

So was everyone happy with the amount of game time that was allocated to players?

With 30 players in a squad that equates to 2 1/2 games or 150 minutes on the field on an equal basis for the initial qualifying rounds. So was everyone here happy with the time that their son or other players were allocated?

I know of one single mum that paid out the $660 for her son to have a total of 40 minutes on the field and the kit. He did not have the added benefit of being provided with any accommodation. She was told it wasn't about time on the field but the whole JGC experience.

Is there any player, who without injury for the whole of the tournament, had less than 40 minutes on the field?

to quote from George Orwell in Animal farm......."All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others...

its just the way it is.......and always has been

 

[Wood Rat]

There was no pro rata refund for withdrawal for genuine reasons

 

[Inside Shoulder]

to quote from George Orwell in Animal farm..."All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.

its just the way it is...and always has been

I made inquiries about game time and was told it is totally at the discretion of the coach.
Teams were permitted 12 rolling subs during a game.
The demands on the boys are such that not giving them guaranteed game time is a bit rough. Particularly if, as others assert, this is about getting kids playing the game rather Han a rep pathway.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

No refunds for genuine withdrawals.

Payments taken but no gear received because it ran out.

Not many kids staying in Village clubland after the programme.

No guaranteed game time (at the coaches discretion). Must be all about winning not development and exposure to higher levels of the game. Part of me says harden up, you may have not had equal game time, but did you put in equally over the summer to earn equal game time and you had the opportunity to learn the drills, disciplines, dietary, S&C and lifeskills tips, and enjoy the comaraderie over the summer. Is that not enough reward?

Some cracks appearing in the JCG model. Hope they repair the cracks pretty promptly otherwise more and more people will get disillusioned with the model and how it is implemented, and all the effort and promise of the programme will come to naught.

The JGC deserves to have a couple of goes to get it right before it gets binned, but ARU have got to demonstrate that they have learned from the mistakes made this time round.

 

[Top Cat]

Hugh, I agree it deserves a couple of goes to get it right.

Maybe the first step is to be honest with the players at the beginning and tell them that the top 15 will get all the game time and the other 15 can fight it out for the bench warming and a few minutes on the field. After all it is about winning the JGC isn't it .

Or maybe as part of the 'development' of players they can allocate all players a minimum time of say 135 minutes and no player having a maximum of say 165 minutes. Allowances could be made for genuine injuries. It would also make the coaches work harder in regard to team selection and if they have a player that hasn't put in at training etc. Well tough! Maybe he shouldn't have been selected in the first place, but if he has been, then the challenge is to develop him.

Maybe many of the posters on here have kids at the top of the pecking order and don't really care. Until something happens to their own that is. Just in case anyone is wondering, my boys certainly aren't at the bottom of the pecking order either but it doesn't stop me from not wanting to see players being 'developed' as bench warmers.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

my boys certainly aren't at the bottom of the pecking order either but it doesn't stop me from not wanting to see players being 'developed' as bench warmers.

We saw this ago with the Tahs where blokes were in the academy for so many years that they played hardly any footy.
Because the injuries are hard to predict and you don't want too big a squad running the JGC straight off the back of the Village Comps gives you a chance to have a depth sheet from which the next kids get the nod in a given position when injury calls.

 

[Boof]

So was everyone happy with the amount of game time that was allocated to players?

With 30 players in a squad that equates to 2 1/2 games or 150 minutes on the field on an equal basis for the initial qualifying rounds. So was everyone here happy with the time that their son or other players were allocated?

I know of one single mum that paid out the $660 for her son to have a total of 40 minutes on the field and the kit. He did not have the added benefit of being provided with any accommodation. She was told it wasn't about time on the field but the whole JGC experience.

Is there any player, who without injury for the whole of the tournament, had less than 40 minutes on the field?

TC, the player you speak of was not cleared medically to play in the first 2 games after returning from surgery, leaving him 3 games to play and share that game time with the other 4 -5 wingers in the squad. Therefor leaving the coach with a selection head ache. They would have had the option to pull out of games ( and only pay the $60 for shirt and shorts) but remain training with the squad, I believe this option was given to another player. My son is also involved in this centre where I have witnessed the boys enjoying themselves ( after all that is what it is about, the kids) and embracing the challenge of playing the big city and state teams. I have found the game time reasonable but you have to remember with a squad of 30 and to cover all positions it would be near impossible to be completely fair, a team of 23 with shadows may be more appropriate.
Yes our experience with training is that it did become monotonous at times and the coaching style might not be everyone's cup of tea, but as a player,student or employee you need to learn to adapt and deal with different personalities otherwise life is going to be hard.
The boys played well winning 4 from 5 games and are unlucky not to be in the finals, not bad for a country based team. Yes there are holes in their game as you have said after watching videos but they are 16 years old and I am sure every JGC team would have holes and all of us arm chair experts would have an opinion on how to fix it.
The JGC is a fantastic opportunity for any player wishing to committ and contribute to the team and at the end of the day your selection or non selection is generally only one mans opinion. Be thankful your boys were considered for this program long before the trials as you have previously stated.
This region has a long,proud and very successful history that the vast majority of participants and supporters have enjoyed.

 

[I like to watch]

So out of a squad of 30 they picked 5 or 6 kids who could only possibly play on the wing?
And then they couldn't work out a way to give those kids 3 halves of footy each?

 

[Top Cat]

TC, the player you speak of was not cleared medically to play in the first 2 games after returning from surgery, leaving him 3 games to play and share that game time with the other 4 -5 wingers in the squad. Therefor leaving the coach with a selection head ache. They would have had the option to pull out of games ( and only pay the $60 for shirt and shorts) but remain training with the squad, I believe this option was given to another player. My son is also involved in this centre where I have witnessed the boys enjoying themselves ( after all that is what it is about, the kids) and embracing the challenge of playing the big city and state teams. I have found the game time reasonable but you have to remember with a squad of 30 and to cover all positions it would be near impossible to be completely fair, a team of 23 with shadows may be more appropriate.
Yes our experience with training is that it did become monotonous at times and the coaching style might not be everyone's cup of tea, but as a player,student or employee you need to learn to adapt and deal with different personalities otherwise life is going to be hard.
The boys played well winning 4 from 5 games and are unlucky not to be in the finals, not bad for a country based team. Yes there are holes in their game as you have said after watching videos but they are 16 years old and I am sure every JGC team would have holes and all of us arm chair experts would have an opinion on how to fix it.
The JGC is a fantastic opportunity for any player wishing to committ and contribute to the team and at the end of the day your selection or non selection is generally only one mans opinion. Be thankful your boys were considered for this program long before the trials as you have previously stated.
This region has a long,proud and very successful history that the vast majority of participants and supporters have enjoyed.

Boof I am fully aware of the circumstances surrounding the player.

Have you spoken to his mother directly and do you know all that was said to her?

She was not given an option to withdraw at a cost of $60 for the kit. I will not post what was said to her though.

He was fit for the 3rd game but wasn't selected. Played 40 mins in the 4th game and scored 3 tries. Then dropped from the 5th game. Again I will not post what was said to her.

There was ample opportunity to give the player game time in the 3rd and 5th games seeing as the other wingers would had game time in the first two matches.

I could waffle on in reply to the remainder of what you have posted but I will refrain.

I think you are forgetting that much of what I have posted is not just my view. You really need to talk to a few more players, parents and parents who are coaches, or maybe ask for some anonymous feedback.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

With the recent revised scrum sequence of CBS, and the U19 rule variation that only allows a push of of 1.5 metres, I'm interested in how this has been passed on to the JGC kids. As a coach previously, I have always found it difficult to allocate time to cover scrummaging properly and safely, while keeping the back row interested, and whilst giving the princesses something meaningful and productive to do.

I haven't managed to get to the JGC games. How have they adjusted to the new scrummaging rules and do the coaches prefer live scrums or scrum machines to practice and develop scrummaging? In the games, have they become the timewasting penalty lotteries that we are seeing at professional level?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Re: Playing time. I have seen some kids go to NSW State Champs and not get any playing time all weekend. It is all about winning, and stuff the 11 year old who is a proud as punch to represent their district.

Not my boy, but the lad above is well known to the Jarse family. Last laugh to the boy in question though when he was selected for NSW I at a recent Schools Championship and the "best" that others from his squad that rep weekend made it to was two in GPS II, one lad in ISA I and one in CAS II.

It is hard at time at times to move beyond the pettiness and apparent mean spirited behaviour of some of those Coaches and Managers who seem to make these kids games win at all cost affairs that are all about themselves.

 

[Delphy]

TC, it would be interesting to know whether the coaches had some instruction about such things as playing time.

I was told by one of the Bris coaches that he was trying to give players some kind of balance, including giving all players an opportunity to be in the run on team. This meant he was managing team lists with an eye to the strength of upcoming opponents.

I got the impression that this was a policy directive from either from the ARU or perhaps the QRU.

It is a bit shitty if the boys commit and work so hard and then don't get a fair go.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

TC, it would be interesting to know whether the coaches had some instruction about such things as playing time.

I was told by one of the Bris coaches that he was trying to give players some kind of balance, including giving all players an opportunity to be in the run on team. This meant he was managing team lists with an eye to the strength of upcoming opponents.

I got the impression that this was a policy directive from either from the ARU or perhaps the QRU.

It is a bit shitty if the boys commit and work so hard and then don't get a fair go.

See post #643 above.
I think most coaches tried to be fair but I was told some not so.

 

[Boof]

Boof I am fully aware of the circumstances surrounding the player.

Have you spoken to his mother directly and do you know all that was said to her?

She was not given an option to withdraw at a cost of $60 for the kit. I will not post what was said to her though.

He was fit for the 3rd game but wasn't selected. Played 40 mins in the 4th game and scored 3 tries. Then dropped from the 5th game. Again I will not post what was said to her.

There was ample opportunity to give the player game time in the 3rd and 5th games seeing as the other wingers would had game time in the first two matches.

I could waffle on in reply to the remainder of what you have posted but I will refrain.

I think you are forgetting that much of what I have posted is not just my view. You really need to talk to a few more players, parents and parents who are coaches, or maybe ask for some anonymous feedback.

Yes I do know the player and his mother personally, regardless of his personal experience it dose not reflect the whole team experience. My point is if the problem is so great speak with the coach,manager,centre coordinator or the ARU directly. ( I know she has spoken to the coach without success ) . Everyone was given the opportunity to withdraw pre Christmas if you could not committ to ALL games, this was in writing via email. Don't get me wrong I feel for the boy he was superb in game 4 and his replacement in game 5 not so. I just don't think it should be a reflection of the entire program.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yes I do know the player and his mother personally, regardless of his personal experience it dose not reflect the whole team experience. My point is if the problem is so great speak with the coach,manager,centre coordinator or the ARU directly. ( I know she has spoken to the coach without success ) . Everyone was given the opportunity to withdraw pre Christmas if you could not committ to ALL games, this was in writing via email. Don't get me wrong I feel for the boy he was superb in game 4 and his replacement in game 5 not so. I just don't think it should be a reflection of the entire program.

I reckon that's why you need to decide whether this is a pathway or a means of getting more boys in.
If its a pathway i have much more sympathy for the idea that you take your lumps but if its the latter then the goal is that no boy should leave with a less positive view of the game than they came in with - this requires sympathetic tailored responses to individual concerns.
I'm not sure you can walk the high wire of a hybrid between the two.

 

[I like to watch]

Even the Wallabies make sure everyone in the squad gets game time on a 5 week tour.
If you run a program that starts pre Xmas,and only the best kids get good game time.How long before kids start questioning whether their commitment is warranted.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect kids to train in a squad over summer,and expect them to be happy to just be a spectator come game time.

 

[Boof]

I reckon that's why you need to decide whether this is a pathway or a means of getting more boys in.
If its a pathway i have much more sympathy for the idea that you take your lumps but if its the latter then the goal is that no boy should leave with a less positive view of the game than they came in with - this requires sympathetic tailored responses to individual concerns.
I'm not sure you can walk the high wire of a hybrid between the two.[/quote)







Agreed they need to decide and advise participants of the purpose, either a pathway or true development. The game component is great but by making it a competition where teams compete for a place in the final they kind of force the coaches hand to need to win therefor have (in his opinion ) his best players on the park to be competitive and give his squad the best shot at success in the competition component of the program. Maybe the answer lies in the structure of the competition, gala day style games where teams and boys can come together and compete on a friendly basis while still challenging themselves against quality opposition. No points, no titles,trophies or crowns just reward for their training with a chance to display their wares, make new friends and connections. This would give coaches no excuses or reasons to not give all players equality.

 

[Boof]

Agreed they need to decide and advise participants of the purpose, either a pathway or true development. The game component is great but by making it a competition where teams compete for a place in the final they kind of force the coaches hand to need to win therefor have (in his opinion ) his best players on the park to be competitive and give his squad the best shot at success in the competition component of the program. Maybe the answer lies in the structure of the competition, gala day style games where teams and boys can come together and compete on a friendly basis while still challenging themselves against quality opposition. No points, no titles,trophies or crowns just reward for their training with a chance to display their wares, make new friends and connections. This would give coaches no excuses or reasons to not give all players equality.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Agreed they need to decide and advise participants of the purpose, either a pathway or true development. The game component is great but by making it a competition where teams compete for a place in the final they kind of force the coaches hand to need to win therefor have (in his opinion ) his best players on the park to be competitive and give his squad the best shot at success in the competition component of the program. Maybe the answer lies in the structure of the competition, gala day style games where teams and boys can come together and compete on a friendly basis while still challenging themselves against quality opposition. No points, no titles,trophies or crowns just reward for their training with a chance to display their wares, make new friends and connections. This would give coaches no excuses or reasons to not give all players equality.

Sounds like state champs

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Even the Wallabies make sure everyone in the squad gets game time on a 5 week tour.
If you run a program that starts pre Xmas,and only the best kids get good game time.How long before kids start questioning whether their commitment is warranted.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect kids to train in a squad over summer,and expect them to be happy to just be a spectator come game time.

Yeah but to achieve that game time quota balance, the Wobs need to arrange late night drinking sessions.

Not sure we want to teach the JGC U15's those particular tricks of the trade, just yet anyway.