ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[Delphy]

Top Cat, I am sorry to hear that not all centres have had a positive experience.

I was an accompanying parent on the WA tour of QLD and made a point of talking with as many parents as possible on opposing teams. The overwhelming sentiment in Pool D seemed to be that JGC was a positive development. The ARU should certainly not "gloss over" any problems or experiences from centres where that sentiment was not shared.

As to participation by 16's Nats players, my count was that slightly more than 50% of the Sydney Juniors, NSW schools and the 2 QLD players appeared in the initial team lists for JGC teams. I don't know whether those numbers were maintained.

In addition the Brisbane squad (later divided into 4 teams) had a substantial number of boys who participated in the state champs. I don't know who made up the balance of the Sydney teams.

My impression of Pool D was that there was no shortage of talent in the u17 Bris teams or in Gold Coast for that matter. WA's preparation was perhaps better, with the boys coming out of u16's Nats and then training 4 times a week over summer.

As to the regional teams, I can't comment on Central Queensland because I missed that game. North Coast were a real surprise though. Without any rep depth they were surprisingly competative. WA had a comfortable win but it was no walk over!

JGC seems to be a terrific tool for the development of a wide cross section of players, a "development" pathway.

I am still disappointed to lose 16 Nationals though. To have the broad based JGC 15 feeding into elite 16 Nats, then broadening out to JGC 17 and finally elite 18 Nats (in place of schoolboys) would be fantastic. The chances of identifying and developing talent for Wobs, Super, NRC and grade would be immeasurably better with that progression.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

HJ I think that is spot on. The ARU to my knowledge have never classified the JGC as elite. The NGS , now rebadged as NSW / qld etc under 18's is what they would see as elite, but they don't promote it that way, in fact they are very big on ensuring those boys lucky enough to be there see it a great opportunity, nothing else, and they work very hard. JGC is a development pathway that has expanded the chance for so many boys to get a higher level experience. The age groups obviously go a year under the loig h mats, and a year between that and sg ball to give those boys an option to play rugby. I agree it's sad to see the 16's go, but seriously resources and cash are scarce so something had to give. The current JGC pathway adds considerably more to the boys rugby experience than the old JGS skills sessions.

Higher level than what?
On what I have seen the Sydney teams are not higher level than state champs u15 and 16 sides. Hunter is better than hunter u 15s state champ, I think, but there would not be much in it. Northern inland would be village club level.
If all it's intended to do is give more people a game it's an incredibly costly and cumbersome way of doing so.
They've created a hybrid, to put it politely, if you are right about it not being elite. There were better skills on show in JGS but perhaps it's catchment was too narrow. The answer to that is not to create a broad based national comps for u15s and u17s - what other code has ever tried to do that? That's a semi pro level concept: see NRC.
They've used a sledge hammer to crack a pistachio.
Build the base and when you have one worry about the levels above.
The 16s are not going. They will run without ARU involvement - kind of suggests there's demand there, don't you think?
I think you missed the sarcasm in HJs observation that Sydney and Brisbane GPS is the elite pathway. I hope he was bring sarcastic,anyway. Perhaps ironic.

 

[Oldschool]

The majority of these posts are of a Sydney slant. So to give a Brizzy point of view for the u15s, the majority of players if not all have come from the state championships. At least two thirds would be GPS players and the balance AIC. It appears to me that Queensland RU has promoted it better within the clubs and has got the buy in of the players and parents. Different with the u17s though, where the number of GPS players is less (but they don't play club at this age.) hence the regions doing really well, but I think the u17s will get stronger over time when the schools and players realize with the GPS comp being in the third term and the JGC in the first that it's a good for their development with minimal injury risk for the GPS comp. The JGC is definitely a step in the right direction IMO

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The majority of these posts are of a Sydney slant. So to give a Brizzy point of view for the u15s, the majority of players if not all have come from the state championships. At least two thirds would be GPS players and the balance AIC. It appears to me that Queensland RU has promoted it better within the clubs and has got the buy in of the players and parents. Different with the u17s though, where the number of GPS players is less (but they don't play club at this age.) hence the regions doing really well, but I think the u17s will get stronger over time when the schools and players realize with the GPS comp being in the third term and the JGC in the first that it's a good for their development with minimal injury risk for the GPS comp. The JGC is definitely a step in the right direction IMO

And to my understanding the summer sports are 1st term based in brissy whereas here they are 4th and 1st.
Some real talent did not play because of rowing commitments - in particular NSW u16 half back from 2013.

 

[Brainstrust]

Higher level than what?
On what I have seen the Sydney teams are not higher level than state champs u15 and 16 sides. Hunter is better than hunter u 15s state champ, I think, but there would not be much in it. Northern inland would be village club level.
If all it's intended to do is give more people a game it's an incredibly costly and cumbersome way of doing so.
They've created a hybrid, to put it politely, if you are right about it not being elite. There were better skills on show in JGS but perhaps it's catchment was too narrow. The answer to that is not to create a broad based national comps for u15s and u17s - what other code has ever tried to do that? That's a semi pro level concept: see NRC.
They've used a sledge hammer to crack a pistachio.
Build the base and when you have one worry about the levels above.
The 16s are not going. They will run without ARU involvement - kind of suggests there's demand there, don't you think?
I think you missed the sarcasm in HJs observation that Sydney and Brisbane GPS is the elite pathway. I hope he was bring sarcastic,anyway. Perhaps ironic.

I've seen plenty of state championships as well, and let me assure you the difference between the top 2 or 3 sides to the rest is quantum, so similar outcomes to what is happening in some JGC games. The higher level reference is to the overall quality of coaching compared to club. There are grade and high level colts coaches working with these boys, that's a great extension to their overall knowledge of the game. Whether or not HJ was being sarcastic, the fact is that the opens programs in most of the rugby focussed schools is equal to or better than the majority of Shute shield clubs.
Fully fitted gyms, 3 field sessions a week, video analysis of team and opposition, on site pools for recovery... And in a number of cases external coaches, or school coaches working in conjunction with ARU coaching support / education. So I think those lucky enough to be in that system could consider those programs as elite. It sounds from old schools post that their club 17's in Brisbane are in a similar situation as Sydney's. The reason for my original post here was to give some support to a seemingly more positive post. The constant wining and bitching on these threads is a complete joke. The ARU don't do enough.. Oh no they are doing the wrong thing... The big bad schools are destroying rugby..... The sooner we get the idea that club, school, and the ARU can actually work for the betterment of the entire game the sooner everyone can enjoy the game. I think the JGC actually allows the 17's boys to get some decent rugby if they aren't going to as some one put it, a flash school...they can then shift to colts rugby from there. So while it's not perfect, there is actually now an opportunity for a lot more boys from all over the country to be playing the game, whether it's club up to the 15/16's , JGC 17's , colts or school.. You can get some rugby.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Getting rugby as an object at 15 and 17 should not involve days of travel and $600.
Merely playing should involve a manageable commitment of time and money.
That's why this fall between 2 stools.
You might need to actually check on the quality of personnel involved, according to my sources.

 

[Hugie]

The ARU has got it about 70% right at its first pass. I think this is a good result for the first year. I hope they can move that to 85% next year etc.

Brainstrust you're right, can you imagine having to send you're child to an expensive private school to get good tennis, swimming, athletics etc coaching?

The next step has to be the Districts/zones stepping up to the plate and providing good coaching and competition following the JGC. Real games not gala weekend a la state champ and Country champs. Then we'll have a good alternative to the private schools.

 

[I like to watch]

Getting rugby as an object at 15 and 17 should not involve days of travel and $600.
Merely playing should involve a manageable commitment of time and money.
That's why this fall between 2 stools.
You might need to actually check on the quality of personnel involved, according to my sources.

I agree $600 is too much.
I know a few participants who rave about their experience.
Obviously,there needs to be a review of each centre,to ensure each area provides minimum standards.
I did read earlier that over 600 kids trialled in one centre,that's got to demonstrate there is a healthy demand for this type of thing.
No one gets it right first time around,it might take a few years to get the right format,but that's to be expected.

 

[Gary Owen III]

Hugh, unfortunately in one center there are many parents and players who would disagree and they can't wait for the ARU to ask for feedback.

No doubt their concerns will be glossed over and the tournament considered a success and in many ways it is ways it is. But a development pathway it is not.

When you have a team where the players call a 'secret players meeting' where they agree to have a call named 'mutiny', then you know you have issues.

The players won't forget, and not for the reasons that you think. Many will never go through it again and will follow the lead of the 'smart ones' that pulled out at the beginning.

TC - If you can say what has been the issue? Is it the ARU and lack of info / logistics etc or more specific to coaches and game time etc?

Is this affecting both ages or just one?

 

[Azzuri]

I agree $600 is too much.
I know a few participants who rave about their experience.
Obviously,there needs to be a review of each centre,to ensure each area provides minimum standards.
I did read earlier that over 600 kids trialled in one centre,that's got to demonstrate there is a healthy demand for this type of thing.
No one gets it right first time around,it might take a few years to get the right format,but that's to be expected.

For $660 the lads in our region were given the equivalent of $150 worth of gear and an overnight trip to Dubbo (bus trip, dinner and one nights dormitory accommodation) all other pool games were on our doorstep so no additional cost. By my reckoning then about $200 per player (minimum) in our region was pooled by the ARU to support the involvement of others. Despite that it's clear the lads benefited greatly from some excellent level 3 coaching and the experience of playing in a national comp.

 

[Top Cat]

Top Cat, I am sorry to hear that not all centres have had a positive experience.

I was an accompanying parent on the WA tour of QLD and made a point of talking with as many parents as possible on opposing teams. The overwhelming sentiment in Pool D seemed to be that JGC was a positive development. The ARU should certainly not "gloss over" any problems or experiences from centres where that sentiment was not shared.

Delphy, Congratulations to the WA teams and no doubt with the travel and whirlwind tour the boys would of had a great time. Glad to hear that they enjoyed themselves

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The next step has to be the Districts/zones stepping up to the plate and providing good coaching and competition following the JGC. Real games not gala weekend a la state champ and Country champs. Then we'll have a good alternative to the private schools.

No.
That should have been the first thing they did. They should have leveraged off that.
At the moment we need bodies playing the game. What happens and should happen above the bodies will be clearer if we feed the grass roots.
The trials are on every week of winter: pick the coaches and get them and their helpers out there scouting for 2015.

 

[Top Cat]

TC - If you can say what has been the issue? Is it the ARU and lack of info / logistics etc or more specific to coaches and game time etc?

Is this affecting both ages or just one?

Hi Gary, I just typed a long winded reply but then lost it as I went to post the reply. More than happy for you to PM me as some issues will no doubt be very sensitive.

 

[S'UP]

I have watched a number of the JGC games and have two boys involved (both have enjoyed the experience) and the thing that always amazes me is when you hear of the ARU talking to a boys (and having it confirmed) about joining the elite squad of boys. But all they do is stand on the side line and pick the kid who does one or two very impressive things but does bugger all for the rest of the game. Then you go home and watch the video you see boys who work their arses off to make that kids look good when he chooses his moment to get involved in the game. Very frustrating, maybe if they are going to call the kids elite they should video the games and watch them with open eyes.
I've also watched the so called elite kids run round and to be honest they are good rugby players but are they elite or significantly better than everyone else, i'd say no. I agree there are a couple of standouts but thats it. For the record i don't see my boys as elite.

 

[Top Cat]

I have watched a number of the JGC games and have two boys involved (both have enjoyed the experience) and the thing that always amazes me is when you hear of the ARU talking to a boys (and having it confirmed) about joining the elite squad of boys. But all they do is stand on the side line and pick the kid who does one or two very impressive things but does bugger all for the rest of the game. Then you go home and watch the video you see boys who work their arses off to make that kids look good when he chooses his moment to get involved in the game. Very frustrating, maybe if they are going to call the kids elite they should video the games and watch them with open eyes.
I've also watched the so called elite kids run round and to be honest they are good rugby players but are they elite or significantly better than everyone else, i'd say no. I agree there are a couple of standouts but thats it. For the record i don't see my boys as elite.

It is a shame that I can only post a 'like' for this post and not the 'ten stars' it deserves.

 

[the mexican]

It is a shame that I can only post a 'like' for this post and not the 'ten stars' it deserves.

********** there's ten stars plus another ten for good luck **********, I couldn't agree more enough said !

 

[Sideshow Dad]

For $660 the lads in our region were given the equivalent of $150 worth of gear and an overnight trip to Dubbo (bus trip, dinner and one nights dormitory accommodation) all other pool games were on our doorstep so no additional cost. By my reckoning then about $200 per player (minimum) in our region was pooled by the ARU to support the involvement of others. Despite that it's clear the lads benefited greatly from some excellent level 3 coaching and the experience of playing in a national comp.

Not sure what side of the register the $150 estimate is based on, but my bloke loves the gear, 3x t's, 3x shorts, singlet, polo, cargo pants, wet weather jacket & a big backpack = plenty of spares to swap with opposition teams - and his overnighter provided much bonding across the team demographic - not to mention I agree, the quality of coaching received - well worth it I think! I appreciate the ARU may have used a $ float across team bases, however what is more of a concern is that not all Super15 franchises tipped in . and those that did, did directly to their state teams.

 

[Dark Shark]

Finally able to get to some games on the weekend (in Brisbane). First for me for the season.

Saw mostly u15 Brisbane Purple v Darling Downs, but also u15 Brisbane Orange v Gold Coast and then the u17 versions of the same match ups.

I just have to say WOW with regards to the standard of the u15 Brisbane Purple team. While off to a wobbly start with some dropped ball from just being a little too eager with their passing, the skills shown across the park at this age and at this stage of the season were extraordinary. Darling Downs were no slouches, particularly in defence but the Purple team just created time, space and width.

Next week at Ballymore the u15 game with Brisbane Purple against the highly fancied Brisbane Pink team will be a cracker.

Also heard some feedback first and second hand from parents and players about the programme. From this team it was of very high praise. However, in other teams the focus has said to be only around a couple of players and some boys have ended up walking away from the programme. (there is always another side to the story, but that is what I have heard).

I think the strength of the programme will vary from team to team as it sounds as though its delivery is dependent upon the quality of coaching staff assigned to the team.

 

[Top Cat]

So was everyone happy with the amount of game time that was allocated to players?

With 30 players in a squad that equates to 2 1/2 games or 150 minutes on the field on an equal basis for the initial qualifying rounds. So was everyone here happy with the time that their son or other players were allocated?

I know of one single mum that paid out the $660 for her son to have a total of 40 minutes on the field and the kit. He did not have the added benefit of being provided with any accommodation. She was told it wasn't about time on the field but the whole JGC experience.

Is there any player, who without injury for the whole of the tournament, had less than 40 minutes on the field?

 

[Shane Smeltz]

So was everyone happy with the amount of game time that was allocated to players?

With 30 players in a squad that equates to 2 1/2 games or 150 minutes on the field on an equal basis for the initial qualifying rounds. So was everyone here happy with the time that their son or other players were allocated?

I know of one single mum that paid out the $660 for her son to have a total of 40 minutes on the field and the kit. He did not have the added benefit of being provided with any accommodation. She was told it wasn't about time on the field but the whole JGC experience.

Is there any player, who without injury for the whole of the tournament, had less than 40 minutes on the field?

In addition to that, there are several boys throughout who joined their team, in their age group, late as replacements for injured boys, or boys who pulled out. Yes boys pulled out, 17s and 15s.
The late joiners were asked to pay a staggered fee depending on when they started. These boys got NO kit, the kit was allocated for the original 30 boys in each pod only. Boys who were injured or pulled out did not give up their kit to the boy replacing them.
Some of these replacement boys have had to play their games in non-JGC gear as there was none. Yes these boys have had plenty of game time - because they were replacing an injured boy or a vacant position.

So there you go - more game time, but less kit, and less money.
It's just the way it works out sometimes.