ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships

[Rugrat]

Bottom line is, someone needs to tell ALL these boys, that when the 'GLORY DAYS" are over, ie: First XV RUGBY, JUNIOR GOLD CUP, QLD SCHOOLBOYS, AUSTRALIAN SCHOOL BOYS ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC, they just don't go straight in to Wallaby Camp, they actually have to go and do the hard grind in Club Rugby, we will then see who the Super Stars are, they will just be another number, and I can assure you the Coaches out in the real Rugby world (club land) won't give too hoots how many tries any of these boys scored on the Gold Coast in 2017, if some of them even play Rugby ever again.

The hard grind of club rugby is not exactly tough compared to the training schedule many of these lads will be undertaking In their senior years at Gps school rugby. Al least 4 field sessions a week plus minimum 2 gym sessions plus video analysis is about standard. Under 16 to open As train far more than clubland seniors and colts and do it over a 3 term period. Add in an additional sport in the spare term for general fitness and fun and the work is getting done, in facilities far superior to the average club land set up. The issue is football jobs/ contracts after school. In rugby in Australia there is now only four professional teams with very limited spots for new talent coming out of school. League has far more opportunities and thats why they go there. It's not just the cash it's actually the opportunity. Union just doesn't provide it. Many lads on scholarships at Gps schools play league as well as union because the schools provide a provisional development program that helps them develop and get a league contract. Not many come back because there isn't a job to come back to. It's not about which sport is Better it's just about getting paid! You can identify and have as many carnivals dressed up as elite competitions as you like it means diddly squat if you can't get a contract.

 

[Come on ref]

EG : I believe Waverley and Knox are 1 and 2 in the U15 CAS and Kings and Joey's 1 and 2 in the U15 AAGPS

There was very few private school boys in this team
I would say there would be nearly 10 boys that are signed to NRL squads already in that team. They are a much better players then that game has them look
Flying up in the morning and sitting around doing absolutly nothing for the rest of the day in the heat , then expected to play at there best at 5pm.

 

[Garry Owens]

Come on Ref !

The QLD boys had just played 4 games of Rugby in 6 days - the last 2 games in mid 30's heat.

Sorry bud .....can't buy the excuse

The Sydney Rays were significantly outclassed and not to piss in your cheerios but the Rays would have been round housed by both other QLD Teams

The 10 on NRL contracts and picked on their size and what / who they are and their value in league .....sort of underscores the earlier issues I outlined

 

[Garry Owens]

And let's call Junior NRL contracts for what they are ......

Bullshit

Yet we automatically give them value to those that have them in that also means they automatically have a better Rugby pot to piss in .

All they are in the absence of a draft system are Clubs stockpiling and shelving in a big game of numbers. They don't guarantee anyone anything ....except the Clubs that own your rights and have control over what you may or may not do, and with whom , for its duration

Yet Rugby doesn't control its own story that smartly , or its posture , against league. We concede all this happy horseshit that there is greater chances of jobs and getting paid in league and we'll get them back someday ( in the majority of cases the fish that John West have rejected ) all the while leaving the ass up in the air to be poked as we try and compete on a similar platform

Why we are trying to piss in the taller weeds with a bigger dog is beyond me

League is easy to attack if you have the gumption to do it and create your selling proposition more smartly - and which might be in line with what the central tenets of Rugby were always about - and which it seems Rugby has forgotten about or abandoned in trying to be all things to all people who don't really give a square root

 

[Kenny Powers]

Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...rugby-world-cup-campaign-20171008-gywuv0.html

"To this day, I simply do not understand the thinking behind the fast-tracking of a player from international rugby league to international rugby union when so many of the things that had made him wildly successful in the 13-man game were of questionable relevance in the 15-man version."

Reading between the lines 1. don't crap all over those loyal to your team or sport by parachuting in and 2. league and union are different!

 

[Show and go]

Bottom line is, someone needs to tell ALL these boys, that when the 'GLORY DAYS" are over, ie: First XV RUGBY, JUNIOR GOLD CUP, QLD SCHOOLBOYS, AUSTRALIAN SCHOOL BOYS ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC, they just don't go straight in to Wallaby Camp, they actually have to go and do the hard grind in Club Rugby, we will then see who the Super Stars are, they will just be another number, and I can assure you the Coaches out in the real Rugby world (club land) won't give too hoots how many tries any of these boys scored on the Gold Coast in 2017, if some of them even play Rugby ever again.

Why would any talented schoolboy want to play in club land after school,train part time , not get paid , run the chance of injury , then tell current employer got injured playing club rugby at weekend meanwhile hoping to get a phone call to go to next level , while more schoolboys enter clubland from the following year. Any schoolboy wanting to make it as a professional player in either code needs to go straight into a fulltime rugby/league contract to keep improving there skills ,this is were the problem lies.

 

[Blanco]

Come on Ref !

The QLD boys had just played 4 games of Rugby in 6 days - the last 2 games in mid 30's heat.

Sorry bud ...can't buy the excuse

The Sydney Rays were significantly outclassed and not to piss in your cheerios but the Rays would have been round housed by both other QLD Teams

The 10 on NRL contracts and picked on their size and what / who they are and their value in league ...sort of underscores the earlier issues I outlined

Very well said! Queensland Reds were deserving winners, the Sydney Rays would have come 5th or 6th if they were in the Northern Comp.

 

[Come on ref]

Come on Ref !

The QLD boys had just played 4 games of Rugby in 6 days - the last 2 games in mid 30's heat.

Sorry bud ...can't buy the excuse

The Sydney Rays were significantly outclassed and not to piss in your cheerios but the Rays would have been round housed by both other QLD Teams

The 10 on NRL contracts and picked on their size and what / who they are and their value in league ...sort of underscores the earlier issues I outlined

I didn't See the game played. But I did get to see both team that day
The qld boys looked comfortable and relaxed. They looked like a team that was enjoying a week long rugby Carnival and were about to play the final
NSW boys looked drained. They seemed fidgety and uncomfortable as they watched the 16's game

My son wasn't involved in the junior gold this year. But he has played with most of the Rays team in one team or another , they are certainly much better rugby players then was seen in that game. I did watch the replay
I agree that on that day all 3 of the qld teams would of beat the Rays.
I also believe if the qld teams fly down to Sydney tomorrow and play ,they will find it a much harder game.

 

[Jets]

I think the Qld Red team would beat a best of the rest team from across the country played anywhere. They are a special bunch of kids who hopefully mature into future stars.


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[Prince Henry]

The score in the first 20 minutes after half time of the final was something like 7-5 so it was not all one way traffic for Red v Rays. Well done Rays for showing some character.

Red when they clicked were unstoppable. They put over 60 on Blue on Day 1 (without two of their prominent backline players) and then easily accounted for White by 5 tries to 2 in their worst performance of the week. Errant kicking and dropped ball bombed another five or six opportunities.

Blue beat White in a close one showing these teams were very close in standard. Blue probably gelled more as a team on the day and White knew they were already in the northern conference final.

So would White and Blue have beaten the Rays? Probably but it would have been closer than what others might think.

I'd be more worried about the standard of ACT, VIC and WA.

 

[Realist]

Wow that is pretty scary at least the Queensland teams seem to have their selections right or are doing something right within their junior program maybe they could show the Aust schoolboys selectors how its done. I get what you are saying about the pathways and development in Oz rugby right now to many influential people within the Union ranks look at taking the short route and have a narrow view - we either commit to winning or commit to developing the development choice gives us a big picture view, I mean I understand that in Qld the Queensland Academy of Sport had their 15 year old Rugby league camp for the Queensland elite rugby league players in the same week as the training camp for this Junior Gold cup I have heard the the QRU allowed the League boys to miss the majority of the Junior Gold Cup training sessions so they could attend the Rugby league camp and then return to their teams on the Match day 1 and be given starting jumpers and run on berths in place of a dedicated Union boy the #15 and #17 are two of the boys that were mentioned that will never go to union as they are league boys through and through If true then that's disappointing for the boys that are loyal to our game QRU need to stand by the boys that are loyal to our game and develop them or they will end up losing these boys as well.

If this is what has happen it is total BS. Just goes to show that selectors/coaches are more concerned about the here and now and enhancing there own C V's instead of doing there job and developing for the future which is what this tournament is suppose to be all about. Think about how many kids would have given their left nut to involved in this tournament.

 

[Jets]

Surely providing a great environment where players push themselves to another level is what the coaches are required to do. The Qld Red team definitely did that, best 15’s team in the country. I’m sure all the players left as better players than they were at the start.
Having a desire to play doesn’t mean you should be given a spot just because you haven’t ever played league. These spots mean more when the best players are there. As I mentioned before all of these kids are currently playing Rugby Union.




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[Realist]

The hard grind of club rugby is not exactly tough compared to the training schedule many of these lads will be undertaking In their senior years at Gps school rugby. Al least 4 field sessions a week plus minimum 2 gym sessions plus video analysis is about standard. Under 16 to open As train far more than clubland seniors and colts and do it over a 3 term period. Add in an additional sport in the spare term for general fitness and fun and the work is getting done, in facilities far superior to the average club land set up. The issue is football jobs/ contracts after school. In rugby in Australia there is now only four professional teams with very limited spots for new talent coming out of school. League has far more opportunities and thats why they go there. It's not just the cash it's actually the opportunity. Union just doesn't provide it. Many lads on scholarships at Gps schools play league as well as union because the schools provide a provisional development program that helps them develop and get a league contract. Not many come back because there isn't a job to come back to. It's not about which sport is Better it's just about getting paid! You can identify and have as many carnivals dressed up as elite competitions as you like it means diddly squat if you can't get a contract.

And here possibly lies part of the problem we are cultivating a generation of kids that feel they are entitled to be paid to play.

 

[Prince Henry]

Fact was one of the boys was given #13 for the week, lost it after the last Ballymore game and had to wear #17 in the final. But that's beside the point. He wasn't given a starting spot in the first game and neither was #15 - he didn't even play.

Mr 13/17 was used sparingly across the week and taken off at HT in the final.

I thought it was a good balanced use of a year 9 kid who probably has some big decisions ahead of him. To call them league boys through and through could be premature. Mr 13 played club and school rugby in 2017.

Mr 15 was brilliant and did everything with a smile on his face. Looked like he really enjoyed his rugby.

The GPS school they attend are quite happy to play these fellas in their A team. Why shouldn't they play rep rugby as well? They are under 15! Are they denying school mates a spot in the A's?

Early days to call which direction they might end up. Plenty of each way bets happening across QLD and good luck to these boys who can successfully play both codes. Many cannot.

 

[Realist]

Surely providing a great environment where players push themselves to another level is what the coaches are required to do. The Qld Red team definitely did that, best 15’s team in the country. I’m sure all the players left as better players than they were at the start.
Having a desire to play doesn’t mean you should be given a spot just because you haven’t ever played league. These spots mean more when the best players are there. As I mentioned before all of these kids are currently playing Rugby Union.




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I would have no problem agreeing with you had those league boys committed to the pre tournament training program instead of been allowed to go off and do a league training camp instead, but still guaranteeing them a spot. What sort of message does this give out give out to 15 year old boys for those that have to stay and train and for those that are allowed to go and do something else a pretty poor one I would have thought. And if you or whoever think doing this type of thing is OK maybe you need to have a close look at were the game is heading in this country because after watching the Aussie schoolboys on the weekend it was less then inspiring and I don't blame the kids.

 

[Jets]

The boys who went were locked into the league camp before the squads were announced. They were pretty open about the clash of dates and didn’t expect to walk into the teams.

And maybe the Aussie schoolboys would be a better team if they picked the best schoolboy rugby players and didn’t exclude kids who play rugby at school but have signed to play league the following year.


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[Realist]

The boys who went were locked into the league camp before the squads were announced. They were pretty open about the clash of dates and didn’t expect to walk into the teams.

And maybe the Aussie schoolboys would be a better team if they picked the best schoolboy rugby players and didn’t exclude kids who play rugby at school but have signed to play league the following year.


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On your first point, thanks for clearing the air on that and why it happened. In reply I thought the idea of the tournament was for player development at the elite level. If these boys could not commit to the full program wouldn't their spots been better off taken by boys that could have committed. It is not as if the league boys where going to miss out on some sort of development training, I thought it would have made better use of what I am hearing are limited resources. OK I know you said that the aim was to put the best players out there, I get that, But wean't there a number of players that were selected not available so others were called up. Did it damage the performance of the Qld. teams? I think not. Point been selection is a very subjective process and is purely the opinion of those doing the selecting. Ask 10 different selectors to make their choices and you will have 10 different results, none of them are right or wrong. As for the league boys if they are that good and want to play rugby for the right reasons they will be there in 4 or 5 years time putting their hand up. As for your second point just cant quite work out the reasoning behind that one. If boys are committed to another sport why should they take the place of those that are. It would have made no difference anyway the talent is not the problem it is how the talent is been molded.

 

[Garry Owens]

Surely providing a great environment where players push themselves to another level is what the coaches are required to do. The Qld Red team definitely did that, best 15’s team in the country. I’m sure all the players left as better players than they were at the start.
Having a desire to play doesn’t mean you should be given a spot just because you haven’t ever played league. These spots mean more when the best players are there. As I mentioned before all of these kids are currently playing Rugby Union.




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1. Agree . The Coaches did an outstanding job with so little time and well done to the boys for responding as well as they did in such a short timeframe

2. Agree having a desire to play doesn't mean you should just because you don't play league. But let's leave the league thing alone for the moment and direct attention to new , excitable claims as to the specialness of these boys and how they are the best U15 team in the Country. A bit much isn't it ?

After all you did say on the prior page that this was about quantity and not quality in representation ? Suggesting that it was / is important to do so for grant money . To that end , there were a number of those with strong desire who have proven themselves as key players in Premiership winning teams at Club and School , GPS and AIC , that were overlooked . Anyone following closely could easily rattle off at least half a dozen names that wouldn't been out of place on Red , White or Blue.

The interchangeability of best half of White with their counterpart , and again with Blue , without skipping a beat?

And what about the 7 or 8 names you also could easily rattle off from the top 3 GPS teams that were unavailable and dominated their match ups all season long and consistently over time ?

The lack of representation from the best of the Sydney School Rugby Schools that has been established ?

It may sound like this is a campaign to diminish the achievements of Red . And it's not . They played an entertaining brand of Rugby and it was clearly evident their Coach did a fabulous job with them through the week - as did the selectors , who assembled the team despite all of the above constraints and limitations

But let's keep it a bit real and get the right context without OTT proclamations

What we should be celebrating and acknowledging is the depth of real talent across a lot of participatory " hot beds" and at least it can be said with a reasonable amount of confidence - that the future of QLD Rugby , purely in terms of availability of talent , is in good shape

 

[Garry Owens]

And yes , it is important to acknowledge a developing player ( and person's ) achievements and to provide positive re-inforcement

Just got to watch out for that fine line though so that unrealistic expectations and an inadvertant fuelling of faux star culture doesn't ensue

Someone brought up the Aus / NZ Schoolboys game on the weekend .

Best on Ground for Aus was widely agreed to be No 20 Tom Kibble.

Didn't play junior rep year on year through all the tick the list offerings , and in fact , wasn't even on the radar in any meaningful way with his Coaching Staff heading into the start of his school season - but very quickly through the trial season made a name for himself through his actions as abrasive and uncompromising with high engine work rate

Made one of the GPS Teams and ultimately one of the Queensland Schoolboy teams ( 2 I think )

And down at Nationals when QLD teams were initially underperforming .......he stood out more , because , he played tough , uncompromising , fundamental Rugby.

He wasnt swanning around looking for his carry out of game context , over Carry and lose his links , looking for his next pod and leaving the attack ball exposed etc . He played what was in front of him.

Gets selected to Barbarians and out works everyone internally in this year's class of Schoolboys to gain selection to bench on Sat v NZ schools - and then gets his chance 18m into the match after an injury to Kohan Herbert.

Best on Ground for Australian Schools

Now there is a young man with desire who wasn't fawned over and never preened and postured for gushy gooey advancer types in the junior pathways

This is exactly the prototype of player and bloke our game should be about

 

[redblack]

And yes , it is important to acknowledge a developing player ( and person's ) achievements and to provide positive re-inforcement

Just got to watch out for that fine line though so that unrealistic expectations and an inadvertant fuelling of faux star culture doesn't ensue

Someone brought up the Aus / NZ Schoolboys game on the weekend .

Best on Ground for Aus was widely agreed to be No 20 Tom Kibble.

Didn't play junior rep year on year through all the tick the list offerings , and in fact , wasn't even on the radar in any meaningful way with his Coaching Staff heading into the start of his school season - but very quickly through the trial season made a name for himself through his actions as abrasive and uncompromising with high engine work rate

Made one of the GPS Teams and ultimately one of the Queensland Schoolboy teams ( 2 I think )

And down at Nationals when QLD teams were initially underperforming ...he stood out more , because , he played tough , uncompromising , fundamental Rugby.

He wasnt swanning around looking for his carry out of game context , over Carry and lose his links , looking for his next pod and leaving the attack ball exposed etc . He played what was in front of him.

Gets selected to Barbarians and out works everyone internally in this year's class of Schoolboys to gain selection to bench on Sat v NZ schools - and then gets his chance 18m into the match after an injury to Kohan Herbert.

Best on Ground for Australian Schools

Now there is a young man with desire who wasn't fawned over and never preened and postured for gushy gooey advancer types in the junior pathways

This is exactly the prototype of player and bloke our game should be about

Great post GO !!!!!! Could not agree more with young Kibble. My question is how do we re-educate schools rep coaches to give these type of players a go when all they seem to do is put the players on who want to be superstars with the ball. More workers in a team the better....you will find they will end up with a lot more possesion in the end. Case in point in the same game there was a tight 5 player who has recieved plenty of plaudits had 3 ball carries (2 ineffective) and made 4 first up tackles. No wonder young kibble was seen everywhere