ARU Junior Gold Cup - National Junior Championships
- Thread starter George Smith
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Tashara
Larry Dwyer (12)
They are the BBC 15A Outside Centre and Full Back.
Congrats to Qld Red well deserved,I agree #17, #15 ran riot but you could probably add in the other 23 numbers in reality the whole RED team ran riot. The decider was so one sided it was riddiculous, do they not teach juniors how to tackle in NSW or do they simply not take this pathway too seriously? The Northern conference looks way more competitive and the conference final between White and Red in the highlights looks to be a far more competitive final. Either way its all well and good throwing accolades to certain boys and tag them as destined for greatness is good but really what about the quality of the opposition? it was not up to standard. Well done RED!!
Garry Owens
Alan Cameron (40)
The scary thing is you could put together another " Red" team with the best half a dozen to a dozen out of White and Blue combined with the best 10 or so that chose not to participate in the tournament and a few key notable oversights and they would scorch anyone in their path with same or bigger margins
A lot of the strength in the U13 to 16 age groups in QLD is a nod , perhaps , to when the Senior Reds were relevant and won half a dozen years ago when a lot of these boys had their imaginations captured as 7 to 11 year olds
Strong Seniors = Strong Juniors
Weak Juniors = Weak Seniors
Allow 5 to 10 years in that nexus
A lot of the strength in the U13 to 16 age groups in QLD is a nod , perhaps , to when the Senior Reds were relevant and won half a dozen years ago when a lot of these boys had their imaginations captured as 7 to 11 year olds
Strong Seniors = Strong Juniors
Weak Juniors = Weak Seniors
Allow 5 to 10 years in that nexus
Garry Owens
Alan Cameron (40)
It also makes you wonder what the player club -schools composition was in the Sydney Rays
EG : I believe Waverley and Knox are 1 and 2 in the U15 CAS and Kings and Joey's 1 and 2 in the U15 AAGPS
I wonder if many of these boys were participating
Quite frankly ....the league centric pre-occupation with physical type and profile is getting in the way ( in Priority of thought and value ) of what our game is also about .......smarts and thinking on the go, work rate and endurance in possession control, selflessness........and a deeper layer of skill
All of which are significantly overlooked in the Priority of Values in Rugby pathway management in Australia currently
I guess that's what happens though when you "league ize" your value systems and ignore the fundamentals of your own game
EG : I believe Waverley and Knox are 1 and 2 in the U15 CAS and Kings and Joey's 1 and 2 in the U15 AAGPS
I wonder if many of these boys were participating
Quite frankly ....the league centric pre-occupation with physical type and profile is getting in the way ( in Priority of thought and value ) of what our game is also about .......smarts and thinking on the go, work rate and endurance in possession control, selflessness........and a deeper layer of skill
All of which are significantly overlooked in the Priority of Values in Rugby pathway management in Australia currently
I guess that's what happens though when you "league ize" your value systems and ignore the fundamentals of your own game
Kenny Powers
Ron Walden (29)
Your post sums up the junior pathways perfectly! There is an obsession with picking earlier developers those boys who go thru puberty earlier than others so you can win whatever competition / trophy you are competing for. They are not picking players that can be developed. They need to look at some of the base athleticism such as they do with the NFL combined. http://www.nfl.com/combine/workouts The other obsession which afflicts the junior pathways is players are picked on their attacking ability and their performance or lack of it in defence / off the \ball work is ignored. Too much of drinking 'running rugby' cool aid! Watching the Australian Schoolboys, the missed tackle statistic showed at half time was horrific. Some of the attempts made in these missed tackles were very poor to the extent I can only conclude selectors don't look at or give significant weighting to a players defensive ability. Quade and Beale were schoolboy prodigies, imagine if they had been told their defence wasn't up to scratch when they were schoolboys, they wouldn't be hiding out on the wing in the Wallabies!
Wow that is pretty scary at least the Queensland teams seem to have their selections right or are doing something right within their junior program maybe they could show the Aust schoolboys selectors how its done. I get what you are saying about the pathways and development in Oz rugby right now to many influential people within the Union ranks look at taking the short route and have a narrow view - we either commit to winning or commit to developing the development choice gives us a big picture view, I mean I understand that in Qld the Queensland Academy of Sport had their 15 year old Rugby league camp for the Queensland elite rugby league players in the same week as the training camp for this Junior Gold cup I have heard the the QRU allowed the League boys to miss the majority of the Junior Gold Cup training sessions so they could attend the Rugby league camp and then return to their teams on the Match day 1 and be given starting jumpers and run on berths in place of a dedicated Union boy the #15 and #17 are two of the boys that were mentioned that will never go to union as they are league boys through and through If true then that's disappointing for the boys that are loyal to our game QRU need to stand by the boys that are loyal to our game and develop them or they will end up losing these boys as well.
Garry Owens
Alan Cameron (40)
Your mail is correct Pinetree
If Rugby , either accidentally or purposefully , is happy playing 2nd fiddle to league in the hope " we might get them back one day" well therein lies a major issue
League development people don't give two shits about being as accommodating. If you blow off opportunity .....see you later . Next !
Rugby has to be more insistent especially when financial resources are as stretched as they are , and ensure , as much as they can that by U15's players are where they are because they are committed to the game
Control and traction over the two bob each way bets isn't in balance
I would suggest over 95% of the two bob each way bets are taking the piss and and already have heart and mind committed to league - as evidenced by their choices in the first signs of scheduling conflicts
And the problem with this , for Rugby , is that most of them are and remain ( comparatively ) underdeveloped and poorer quality Rugby players despite their athletic gifts because of the indifference that they never get called on and so very rarely leaves them
If Rugby , either accidentally or purposefully , is happy playing 2nd fiddle to league in the hope " we might get them back one day" well therein lies a major issue
League development people don't give two shits about being as accommodating. If you blow off opportunity .....see you later . Next !
Rugby has to be more insistent especially when financial resources are as stretched as they are , and ensure , as much as they can that by U15's players are where they are because they are committed to the game
Control and traction over the two bob each way bets isn't in balance
I would suggest over 95% of the two bob each way bets are taking the piss and and already have heart and mind committed to league - as evidenced by their choices in the first signs of scheduling conflicts
And the problem with this , for Rugby , is that most of them are and remain ( comparatively ) underdeveloped and poorer quality Rugby players despite their athletic gifts because of the indifference that they never get called on and so very rarely leaves them
Another WOW from me I find it completely unacceptable that the QRU have allowed that to happen it really devalues the game and the JGC competition from what was in my mind a development pathway, the QRU have basically said to loyal union boys and families that your boy can make up the numbers in training and on match day as our elite league boys are returning, now if I know that this has happened then I guarantee the boys will know and parents will know. The REDS D.Os need to do their job run more and regular coaching clinics more academies cast the net wide, in reality it seems like they are scouting talent however they are not scouting within our game, just taking the short route Look after our grass roots what do these development offcer's do? Here's a suggestion look for that "Gold" it may not be within the GPS system talent and potential cold be found in the state schools or even AIC at the moment the attitude is if a boy is any good he would be in the GPS system I don't believe this #8 for oz schools this year and last from AIC
Kenny Powers
Ron Walden (29)
Gee have some respect for yourself QRU!
Have some respect for kids that prioritise Rugby Union!
Don't ever ever ever disrespect the sport like that again!
PS - it's also not like it's unique to the QRU!
Have some respect for kids that prioritise Rugby Union!
Don't ever ever ever disrespect the sport like that again!
PS - it's also not like it's unique to the QRU!
Yeah apologies for the rant but its impacting all levels of our game here and it just doesn't look like getting better soon. Don't like seeing us continually lose the schools fixtures, U20s, super the list goes on, just a little frustrating rant over
Kenny Powers
Ron Walden (29)
No need for apologies, it is outrageous what is going on. Whilst it may cause short term pain it is in the long term benefit of Rugby Union to invest the limited money available in the kids who commit to Rugby Union. If you have an NRL contract whilst a teenager, good luck to you but you have made your choice. No everyone wants to pay league, and how many league players can play in the forwards or have played in the forwards? The only players who move between league and union are backs. Whats the old saying forwards win you the game the backs just determine by how much! Will not be a popular opinion with all, but how many kids with a NRL contract have we seen end up in rugby union?
Ok guys I'm going to completely disagree with all of you. Australian rugby has little to no money. If a kid plays both Rugby and League I'd be encouraging them to play both. If a kid plays rugby and volleyball I'd encourage them to play both. Most of the research around teenagers who play one sport compared to those who play multiple sports shows that the one who participate in many will be better athletes. There are very few contracted spots in Australian rugby so if my son said he was offered a contract in league I would say take it, you can always return to rugby in a few years time with experience in a professional environment. Old school thinking like yours is driving kids away from the sport. If you are the best player in your position and don't get picked for Aust schoolboys because you have signed a low level league contract I think it is a travesty. Be open to these young men and show them how great rugby can be, don't push them away.
On another point the Reds no longer employ DO's. the have participation managers and officers who are responsible for getting as many kids involved in Rookies to Reds as possible. They are not after quality they want quantity as that is what looks good on a grant application. Paul and Tyrone from the Reds did an outstanding job selecting the 85+ players who were selected for the Junior Gold program. They picked kids from all schools and offered them places. Schools like Downlands, Malaney SHS and St Pats Emerald supplied some rough diamonds who should be nurtured in our game. The program in Qld was run exceptionally well in my view.
I think those kids who were selected in the QIS league camp showed a lot of commitment to the Qld teams and were also some of the better performers over the northern conference.
I'm happy to bag the QRU but I don't think it is justified in this case.
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On another point the Reds no longer employ DO's. the have participation managers and officers who are responsible for getting as many kids involved in Rookies to Reds as possible. They are not after quality they want quantity as that is what looks good on a grant application. Paul and Tyrone from the Reds did an outstanding job selecting the 85+ players who were selected for the Junior Gold program. They picked kids from all schools and offered them places. Schools like Downlands, Malaney SHS and St Pats Emerald supplied some rough diamonds who should be nurtured in our game. The program in Qld was run exceptionally well in my view.
I think those kids who were selected in the QIS league camp showed a lot of commitment to the Qld teams and were also some of the better performers over the northern conference.
I'm happy to bag the QRU but I don't think it is justified in this case.
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Thanks Jets agree that playing two sports is a good thing for teen agers I am all for that. I am talking more about when schedules clash for the two codes at representative level where all participants are required to pay a fee then I believe a decision has to be made by either the boy or by the code so that other participants do not feel disadvantaged, but tha'ts just my opinion Sounds like you are more familiar with the QRU set up than I am or maybe you were even a part of it, no offence intended
Kenny Powers
Ron Walden (29)
Also agree teenagers should play different sports, however I would have a concern about the number of games a boy would play if they did both league and union, not sure that would be good for long term health and chronic injuries. Anyway there are plenty of boys who have played Aust schoolboys who have gone to league, not sure of any who then made their way back to union. Maybe a bit of old school thinking is what we need at the moment in Australian Rugby, those that play for love not money or at least not as much as is on offer in league or European Rugby. We sure don't have much money in Australian Rugby and maybe playing rugby and possibly being Wallaby is about something more than money. Just as it is for the All Blacks.
Rocky Elsom, Wycliffe Palu, Nehe Milner-Scutter, Will Chambers and Henry Taefu all went and played league after school and then returned to rugby. I'm sure there are plenty more. Then there are the league guys who make the switch. I feel that if rugby was more welcoming more guys would do the same thing.
It should also be noted that all the players in the Junior Gold program were picked from school rugby and School state champs. I would agree it would be an issue if the boys didn't play any rugby and were selected and then went on the league camp.
And yes I was involved in the program.
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It should also be noted that all the players in the Junior Gold program were picked from school rugby and School state champs. I would agree it would be an issue if the boys didn't play any rugby and were selected and then went on the league camp.
And yes I was involved in the program.
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Garry Owens
Alan Cameron (40)
There are fair and valid points on both sides of the fence - but the more critical element had nothing to do with how well the overall Queensland operation was conducted this year.
It is impossible to please everybody and you never will. But when you consider the limited resources and trying to get a fair balance right between talent and inclusivity ( as Jets gave a nod to before ) and then take into account the quality of the Coaches and Team Management to pull together what they did in a small period of time - everyone should take a bow
Mine , was a broader philosophic point , that seems to have sat at a higher level and has now , I fear , become endemic in losing parts of what our game is about
And I blame Darth John O'Neill for that for what happened 20 years ago which has delivered a lot of the legacy issues we struggle with today
The game needs stars and identities . I get that.
But it seems Rugby is turning its back , more and more, on its core fundamentals in what is valued as it purposefully or accidentally homongenises these prioritised values with league
At an U15 Rep level boys that have now been playing Rugby for a few years but priortise League still don't know the rules , still leave the attack ball exposed if they are the support player that needs to take it , still stop running off the ball if the immediate play doesnt involve them running it , and still overplay their run which leaves them isolated on the majority of their possessions
And this isn't just Rugby / League boys .
Unfortunately this early blow smoke up the ass star system has had a carry over to Rugby only players too
And the common denominator is early growth / early athletic advantage where a lot of the reduction in value is about running the ball and prototyping
And fundamentals and development of in these players ( isn't their fault ) is being lost
Try asking a lot of these boys what they think gets them noticed and puts them on the radar at this age / stage of their development
Therein lies the truth
So that's a leadership challenge for Rugby in how it manages its grassroots / pathways to redress that thinking of what is valued
It is impossible to please everybody and you never will. But when you consider the limited resources and trying to get a fair balance right between talent and inclusivity ( as Jets gave a nod to before ) and then take into account the quality of the Coaches and Team Management to pull together what they did in a small period of time - everyone should take a bow
Mine , was a broader philosophic point , that seems to have sat at a higher level and has now , I fear , become endemic in losing parts of what our game is about
And I blame Darth John O'Neill for that for what happened 20 years ago which has delivered a lot of the legacy issues we struggle with today
The game needs stars and identities . I get that.
But it seems Rugby is turning its back , more and more, on its core fundamentals in what is valued as it purposefully or accidentally homongenises these prioritised values with league
At an U15 Rep level boys that have now been playing Rugby for a few years but priortise League still don't know the rules , still leave the attack ball exposed if they are the support player that needs to take it , still stop running off the ball if the immediate play doesnt involve them running it , and still overplay their run which leaves them isolated on the majority of their possessions
And this isn't just Rugby / League boys .
Unfortunately this early blow smoke up the ass star system has had a carry over to Rugby only players too
And the common denominator is early growth / early athletic advantage where a lot of the reduction in value is about running the ball and prototyping
And fundamentals and development of in these players ( isn't their fault ) is being lost
Try asking a lot of these boys what they think gets them noticed and puts them on the radar at this age / stage of their development
Therein lies the truth
So that's a leadership challenge for Rugby in how it manages its grassroots / pathways to redress that thinking of what is valued
Bottom line is, someone needs to tell ALL these boys, that when the 'GLORY DAYS" are over, ie: First XV RUGBY, JUNIOR GOLD CUP, QLD SCHOOLBOYS, AUSTRALIAN SCHOOL BOYS ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC, they just don't go straight in to Wallaby Camp, they actually have to go and do the hard grind in Club Rugby, we will then see who the Super Stars are, they will just be another number, and I can assure you the Coaches out in the real Rugby world (club land) won't give too hoots how many tries any of these boys scored on the Gold Coast in 2017, if some of them even play Rugby ever again.
Alex Saunders
Frank Row (1)
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