Andy Friend Sacked!

[Richard D. James]

I've always been of the opinion that it's the average to solid players who make the best coaches. They had to study the tactics and strategy of the game in order to improve as players whereas the naturally gifted "superstars" don't need that deeper understanding as their instincts are in control.

Bit of a generalisation, but I think it has merit.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Every current AFL coach played first grade (games ranging from 50 to 255) - why is their game so different to union - is it a smarter game?

I was talking about guys who were superstar players and successful coaches. The list isn't big, but I'll add Kevin Sheedy and Malcolm Blight to it.

 

[lincoln]

Could also be that professional rugby is not old enough yet for players of quality to come through. Guys like Nick FJ and Andy Kirk probably would have been decent coaches but went onto to the corporate world but agree with RDJ above on issue of what type of player probably has a better understanding of what's happening and why.

 

[stoff]

Could also be that professional rugby is not old enough yet for players of quality to come through. Guys like Nick FJ and Andy Kirk probably would have been decent coaches but went onto to the corporate world but agree with RDJ above on issue of what type of player probably has a better understanding of what's happening and why.

I think thats a factor when comparing to AFL. There is alot of money to be earned in the lower tiers of coaching (and playing) in Aussie Rules. I think this helps encourage former players who have the desire to coach to move into the system knowing there are plenty of jobs around that you can make a decent living by taking - ie AFL assistant, VFL, WAFL, SANFL, AIS, AFL development, etc, etc and probably even some of the bigger clubs in the bush and around Melbourne. I know of a captain/coach at one surf coast club who was making over $70k, and that was training three nights a week with a game on the weekend. I also agree with RDJ's comment.

 

[daz]

It is considered highly unlikely that Larkham, who is only six weeks into his new career as an assistant rugby coach after finishing his playing commitments in Japan, will come into the reckoning to coach the Brumbies next year.

So in other words Larkham is a certain starter next year.

 

[Bradley]

I'll never forget what my dad told me once about coaching ability: particularly regarding blokes from distinguished careers. He said they must be able to impart their knowledge otherwise no one would get it.

 

[Hawko]

I think thats a factor when comparing to AFL. There is alot of money to be earned in the lower tiers of coaching (and playing) in Aussie Rules. I think this helps encourage former players who have the desire to coach to move into the system knowing there are plenty of jobs around that you can make a decent living by taking - ie AFL assistant, VFL, WAFL, SANFL, AIS, AFL development, etc, etc and probably even some of the bigger clubs in the bush and around Melbourne. I know of a captain/coach at one surf coast club who was making over $70k, and that was training three nights a week with a game on the weekend. I also agree with RDJ's comment.

Also rugby is littered with players who went on to have high level professional careers, who could have been successful coaches. For AFL, where less players have Uni courses on the go and fewer post game options, coaching is an easy way in to life after playing.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

To an extent, Hawko, yes. However, I'll note that two great Carlton players/coaches, the team that I support, have done alright in the professional/academic stakes outside of footy. Mike Fitzpatrick was a Rhodes Scholar and gave up footy for a while to pursue his studies. His coach, David Parkin (also a distinguished player at Hawthorn), is a university lecturer and I believe was doing it for most of his coaching career.

I'll grant you that the AFL hasn't really been littered with professionals, however.

 

[Cutter]

Follow up question:

How many outstanding backline players have gone on to be outstanding coaches?

And how many have been duds?

Bruce you really have it in for Larkham don't you? Why?

If you remove your Australian myopia, you might find some more names.

Players will, increasingly in my opinion, move into coaching in the professional era. Larkham has spent the last 15 years studying full time how to break down defences. Although he was a natural rugby player, be isn't instinctive in the same way Carlos, QC (Quade Cooper) and KB (Kurtley Beale) are. He played a lot of clever set piece moves and understands how to disrupt defensive lines.

 

[RugbyFuture]

I think its simple, and agreeable, that Bruce's opinion as that backs are otherwise incredibly lacking in Talent....completely true, can't deny it...:fishing

 

[Bruce Ross]

Follow up question:

How many outstanding backline players have gone on to be outstanding coaches?

And how many have been duds?

What worries me is trying to think of any really gifted intuitive players who have been able to successfully impart knowledge to other players after they have retired.

Bruce you really have it in for Larkham don't you? Why?

If you remove your Australian myopia, you might find some more names.

Cutter, on what basis do my two posts above lead you to conclude that I "have it in for Larkham"?

When I asked those two questions I was thinking particularly of two players, Mark Ella and David Campese. I regard Ella as the most creative player I have ever seen and Campese was an attacking genius. Neither, in my opinion, went on to be an "outstanding coach".

Nobody has yet provided an example of an "outstanding backline player" who went on to be an "outstanding coach". Sir Clive Woodward was mentioned. Despite his 23 caps I wouldn't regard him as having been an outstanding player in the sense that Larkham, for example, was.

As to my "Australian myopia", what are you on about? I know much more about Australian rugby than I do about our sport in other countries, which is probably not surprising but so what? Can you find in any of my posts any example of me being critical of other countries or dismissive of their rugby? For that matter you would be hard pressed to find examples of me being critical of any players, including of course Stephen Larkham. I try to avoid doing so. Coaches on the other hand I regard as fair game. But after only two games as an assistant coach, I have no basis on which to form an opinion of Larkham as a coach.

 

[Scotty]

What is your criteria for 'outstanding backline player'. Because if we are limiting it to the likes of Ella and Campese, we haven't got a large range to choose from.

Eg If someone like Wilkinson goes on to become a great coach, would he be considered an 'outstanding backline player'.

 

[lincoln]

Bruce, whoa - someone's been around your place with the angry stick this morning - I know a good GP who can help with some chill pills - only one more sleep till Uni takes the field in a trial against the Woollahra lovelies. I suppose we are interested as to who rates as an "outstanding backline player" in your book - would Michael Hawker for instance?

 

[Bruce Ross]

What is your criteria for 'outstanding backline player'. Because if we are limiting it to the likes of Ella and Campese, we haven't got a large range to choose from.

Eg If someone like Wilkinson goes on to become a great coach, would he be considered an 'outstanding backline player'.

Scotty, I do not have any set criteria for "outstanding backline player", or for anything else for that matter. Of course I wouldn't limit the category to players as remarkable as Ella and Campese. Clearly Wilkinson would fit as would Larkham. However, I do not really remember any of Woodward's games, so he would not necessarily be the type of player I had in mind.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce, whoa - someone's been around your place with the angry stick this morning - I know a good GP who can help with some chill pills - only one more sleep till Uni takes the field in a trial against the Woollahra lovelies. I suppose we are interested as to who rates as an "outstanding backline player" in your book - would Michael Hawker for instance?

Of course, lincoln.

 

[Cutter]

Cutter, on what basis do my two posts above lead you to conclude that I "have it in for Larkham"?

When I asked those two questions I was thinking particularly of two players, Mark Ella and David Campese. I regard Ella as the most creative player I have ever seen and Campese was an attacking genius. Neither, in my opinion, went on to be an "outstanding coach".

Nobody has yet provided an example of an "outstanding backline player" who went on to be an "outstanding coach". Sir Clive Woodward was mentioned. Despite his 23 caps I wouldn't regard him as having been an outstanding player in the sense that Larkham, for example, was.

As to my "Australian myopia", what are you on about? I know much more about Australian rugby than I do about our sport in other countries, which is probably not surprising but so what? Can you find in any of my posts any example of me being critical of other countries or dismissive of their rugby? For that matter you would be hard pressed to find examples of me being critical of any players, including of course Stephen Larkham. I try to avoid doing so. Coaches on the other hand I regard as fair game. But after only two games as an assistant coach, I have no basis on which to form an opinion of Larkham as a coach.

It was in another thread you first suggested Larkham was behind a push to destabilise Friend. I can find your quote if you like. And, why would you ask this question:

Follow up question:

How many outstanding backline players have gone on to be outstanding coaches?

And how many have been duds?

In a thread about Andy Friend's dismissal if not with reference to Larkham?

In terms of top level backs who have gone on to be successful coaches: Phillippe Saint-Andre is a pretty hand coach. Shaun Edwards, though not a rugby player, is doing alright for himself, Pat Howard was well regarded in the UK, Brian Smith at London Irish and England, Bryan Redpath, Pierre Berbizier, Emile Ntmack...

There are plenty of coaching duds. Backs, forwards, players and non players alike.

Your posts lack balance on this topic which makes me curious as to your motivations.

 

[The Mayor of Perth]

Whether Friend was a good coach will be debated, but he deserved better. He is a man of dignity. What will not be forgotten was his strong leadership when the Brumbies were devastated by the death of their player, Shawn Mackay, in 2009.

Growden making sense...

 

[naza]

Coaching is a completely different animal to playing and it's probably no surprise that many of the successful top level rugby coaches we've seen weren't superstar genii as players. Of our most successful bunch (MacQueen, Jones, Dwyer), none of them played top level footy.

WRONG !!!!!! What the hell ? Macqueen & Jones (famously leapfrogged by Randwick 2nds hooker Phil Kearns) both played for NSW and were fairly unlucky not to play test rugby.

Dwyer only played 347 club games for Randwick. Hardly unremarkable.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I meant Alan, not Eddie, Naza. AJ was a considerably more successful coach than Eddie. So that's two out of three who didn't play top level footy. According to the info I have here on MacQueen, he played Sydney first grade (173 games) for Warringah and Eastwood and played *some* games for a Sydney rep team and the Australian Barbarians.

So no, our top coaches never played top level footy. I stand by my statement.

 

[floater]

Pretty easy.

Sort of touched on with Nick FJ, the backs are normally to clever and go onto decent livings, while the bricks just stick with the jackets and patches.

That, and CEOs are to scared to say no to them.

After tonights loss the only thing that will give Rea any cred is to step down and let Bernie in. At least they scored 4 tries tonight!