A new tier of rugby in Qld

[Woopsie]

At the risk of that poor horse being flogged any further...I am putting up a thought for your consideration and comment


It is based upon the following;



1. Providing another level of competition above that of Club rugby

2. Providing Qld Super Rugby Players who miss Wallaby selection some meaningful competition to press for end of year tour selection

3. Providing a pathway for next gen elite coaching staff and players

4. Provides a possible future revenue stream with broadcasting


A District Competition



There are a number of Districts in Qld; Cairns, Townsville, Central, Darling Downs, Sunshine Coast, Brisbane and Gold Coast. If you split Brisbane into North and South, you could have a Competition that has 8 District Rep Teams. Brisbane North could be a team chosen from Brothers, GPS, Norths and Wests, whilst South could be chosen from Easts, Souths, Sunnybank and Uni.



So, to begin with; Club teams in every district compete in their normal competitions culminating in their respective Grand Finals. Yes, that would mean pushing the Breakers and the Stingrays back to their local catchment. The District Teams would then selected as a rep team from those competitions. They play in two pools culminating in a District Championship Final. Brisbane North and South would be split into different pools and the pool make-up could be configured in such a way as to minimise travel and cost.



Where would they play games? Put the games up to tender with say a $x bond for club venues to host. It would be a way of minimising cost impact on the state union and would incentivise clubs who do host, to attract crowds to games and therefore giving them the game day profits, or at a local level, clubs could come together for a joint bid and profit share. Especially sound if individual clubs have strong representation in these rep teams but share facilities with Cricket Teams and cannot extend their “seasons” at their home ground.



City/Country Teams are then selected from these district teams for the annual clash at Ballymore, at which stage Super Rugby has been finalised and these games could be viewed as ideal scouting opportunities for future Super Rugby Players. City being made up of the Brisbane Metro Premier Clubs, and Country being made up as a representation of the other 6 District teams.



Would the players be paid? – uncontracted players could be given cost reimbursement for loss of wages etc therefore suffering no financial impact.


The benefit – an enhanced model that provides greater competition at the end of the season in order to extend the Qld Rugby season to fall into line with Sydney. It could actually enhance the possibility of seeing aspirants returning to Qld for the prospect of playing in this District Comp, therefore giving rise to the opportunity of attracting and retaining players for the normal Qld Club Competitions. The drop in “standard” for the Super Rugby players would not be as great and would keep them fine tuned to press for higher selection. It would also give players from all over the state an opportunity to showcase themselves to press for higher honours, and provide a meaningful pathway for Qld Coaches.

 

[en_force_er]

Always an interesting conversation to have but don't you think the fact that Sunshine/Gold Coast don't even always make the finals of the Hospital Cup means that they wouldn't be effective against a side made up of 4 rep sides?

This isn't even considering Cairns, Townsville, "Central", and Darling Downs. I think to be honest Qld Country Rugby is reasonably well structured and if I'm not mistaken there is already occasionally a City-Country clash. The obstacle is the lack of awareness of these events.

 

[Woopsie]

Always an interesting conversation to have but don't you think the fact that Sunshine/Gold Coast don't even always make the finals of the Hospital Cup means that they wouldn't be effective against a side made up of 4 rep sides?

This isn't even considering Cairns, Townsville, "Central", and Darling Downs. I think to be honest Qld Country Rugby is reasonably well structured and if I'm not mistaken there is already occasionally a City-Country clash. The obstacle is the lack of awareness of these events.

There is occasionally a City/Country clash, I think it happens every year. Could the same be said for Rebels and Force? They aren't figuring in finals?

The aim of such a competition is to provide genuine pathways for rugby players/coaches, give them an arena to shine and to ultimately strengthen the game all the way through to our National side. Other benefits may include keeping some players in Australia rather than losing them to NPC, France, UK, etc etc

1. The best players from each club play other clubs. (eg - Brothers v Uni, Eastwood v Randwick)
2. The best players from each club get chosen for their district to play other districts. (eg. Brisbane North v Central Qld, South Harbour v Far Nth Coast)
3. The best players from each district get chosen for their region to play other regions. (eg. City v Country, Sydney v NSW Country)
4. The best players from each region can be chosen to a professional "franchise" to play other "franchises" (eg. Reds v Waratahs)
5. The best players from each professional "franchise" gets chosen for their country to play other countries

Okay, so Central Qld gets towelled by Brisbane North? - Those "elite" players from 'Central Qld' now know what they need to do to compete at that next level. They in turn go back to their club and helps improve the quality, so next year 'Central Qld' may have a larger pool to choose from, and the quality gap closes, or 'Brisbane North' grows in quality through better competition?

Who loses here?

 

[tigerland12]

I'm going to say one thing "Logistical Nightmare"

 

[Woopsie]

so, because it isn't going to be easy should stop something from happening? QRU is enjoying good success at the moment and it is time to build some future protection to ensure that success is not prone to volatility

 

[tigerland12]

Just because the QRU has had success through the Reds, doesn't mean their financial resources are exactly booming. Yes they are in a better position then 2 years ago, but there is still not enough to be put towards funding risky investments like this.

 

[Woopsie]

to invest or not to invest, either option carries risk - it just comes down to the risk/return trade-off.

the reds are in a better position now, but players and coaches will go over time, and it comes down to whether you have invested in your future as to potect yourself against volatility. If you invest in a secure pipeline when you have the resources to do so, then I believe it is a prudent decision to make.

Qld Schools are winning consistently - where to next? Dion Tuimata has only just come back to Qld after being with Easts for a season or two, why did he leave Qld?

What is the risk? - is the risk that we will uncover gems of talent from around the state that could potentially progress through to put pressure on professional elite rugby players? Or is it simply how much it will cost now? The administrators at the QRU and the ARU are simply custodians of the game, it is their responsibility to continually benefit the members, protect our game and continual product improvement. The return comes from revenue driven from World Cups, Super Rugby titles and broadcasting. Engage the public in every corner, give their local heroes an opportunity to compete at the heighest level and they will support.

 

[Jets]

The major issue I see is that you are getting rid of one of the strengths of Club rugby and that is the loyalty of the fans. Better for Darling Downs and Townsville to enter Premier Rugby than start a new comp.

Plus this will cost a lot of money and Premier Rugby can't find a sponsor as it is.

I do like the concept of a Q Cup type comp for rugby though.

Also it could be done without paying the players. If teams fly out on Friday evening and back on Sunday not many would miss out on work.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

Q-cup competition style is probably the best we can expect over the next 5 years.

However i have known lads who have been offered to play borth premier colts & Colts Q-Cup and even though they enjoyed rugby more had to wrestle with the decision of turning down $150 a win playing the latter

 

[Woopsie]

Hi Jets

In my head, I saw this as a competition that started after club rugby season had ended;

• 2 pools of 4 teams - play each other pool member once
• pool winners face on in final
• followed by a city/country clash

so 5-7 week duration following club rugby season

Aiming not to weaken a clubs support structure, simply to provide an extension thereof if possible.

With regards to paying players, again, in my head, I saw them being provided with flights, accommodation, their kit, training resources, improved coaching, medical support, and maybe some $$ for incidentals.

Premier Rugby cannot find a sponsor - that is a whole new discussion!!

 

[strapping]

I personally would like to see a post season competition perhaps a round robin with best two teams playing for Aust club champions something like top 2-3 teams sydney top 2-3 teams Brisbane and top Canberra Team. this would allow a high level of competition for the top end of the premiership teams and a further incentive to making top 3 of clubs perspective competitions.

 

[Woopsie]

I personally would like to see a post season competition perhaps a round robin with best two teams playing for Aust club champions something like top 2-3 teams sydney top 2-3 teams Brisbane and top Canberra Team. this would allow a high level of competition for the top end of the premiership teams and a further incentive to making top 3 of clubs perspective competitions.

I had thought about that but without wanting to offend you or the players that could be involved;

• i think the structure you suggest could lead to cheque book recruiting tactics by metro clubs, therefore weakening clubs outside metro
• i don't think that it necessarily has a natural flow through of talent or higher levels of competition as some first graders will only ever be first graders whereas a "rep" fixture will see players all of similar talent standards coming together pushing one another to higher levels of performance
• I think it would lead to players leaving their local club prematurely to chase their rugby dream by "forcing" them to move to the city, and the possible ramifications of shattered dreams if they do not succeed

 

[Dave Beat]

Interesting topic this one - are we all jealous of what NZ has with the NCP, and RSA has with the Currie cup?
I am. If they can do it why can't we, it doesnt have to be impossible, they've proved it can be done.

QLD, & NSW, have a strong premier comp steeped in history and core rugby values / ethos'

There was a failed attempt with the ARC - I believe this occured primarily because no attention was paid to the values of rugby, and the clubs that have provided those foundations for years.

Problem 1 - Funding. - Does it have to be, can this be solved by building on the premier club foundations already in place?
3 x NSW teams (Nth harbour, Sth harbour, NSW Country)
4 x QLD teams (QLD Country - not sure of georgaphic structure)
1 x Canberra Kooka's
8 rep team comp (Grade, and Colts) set up in the eastern states.

Game day would be;
Club Rugby x 4 grades then Rep game as above.
The venue of the rep game must have club involvement, and must be shared around.

With the Super players coming back, the drain on club rugby stock wouldn't be that great, and the clubs would benifit through quality rugby. Please note these Super players are currently returning to their clubs as is, so any additional endorsement would be greater than what they are currently receiving.

Structure and Timing - lets face it, it aint going to happen this year. But planning may provide a future comp.

FYI based on this year;
The round games of the Super Rugby finish on the 15th Jul
Only for Reference NRL GF is the 30 Sep
There is 11 weeks there.

 

[ripper868]

Why it works in NZ and SA:

They have the player base.

Why it doesnt here:
Because of the x amount of sports participants in Australia:
X play Union
XX Play League
XXX Play AFL
XXX Play Touch
XXX Play Golf
XXXX Sit in the stands and get fat.

I honestly think the creation of an extra tier 'above' club rugby would only weaken and devalue the competitions we already have. Go and ask the players who have just played 21 rounds of Premier Rugby if they want to play another 8 for "Northern Metro Brisbane" or somesuch. They don't.

The pathways are there for the country guys to play country and run from there. If they are serious about being a professional they will move to where the professional centres are. The key to strengthening rugby is through building on waht we have, not creating some new comp/tier as ARC showed. Beleive it or not the Beales/Fainggaa/Daleys/Pococks and others featured in the ARC ad would have come through anyway through the existing pathways.

Sure some guys don't get the shot they deserve and very few make it to the top...that's sport. I and many others could probaly think of 10 players who never got their shot at the elite level due to injury or work commitments/whatever Its just life.

Bottom line is another tier just isn't sustainable. It costs a fuckload of money for one, and that's something none of the clubs/regions/zones/states have.

 

[Dave Beat]

Ripper,
Congrats on the sheild last year, won by a true club team built from the bottom up.


I honestly think the creation of an extra tier 'above' club rugby would only weaken and devalue the competitions we already have. Go and ask the players who have just played 21 rounds of Premier Rugby if they want to play another 8 for "Northern Metro Brisbane" or somesuch. They don't. ??? The players currently coming back to club rugby obviously want to play, I mean why are they returning.

The pathways are there for the country guys to play country and run from there. If they are serious about being a professional they will move to where the professional centres are. The key to strengthening rugby is through building on waht we have, not creating some new comp/tier as ARC showed. Beleive it or not the Beales/Fainggaa/Daleys/Pococks and others featured in the ARC ad would have come through anyway through the existing pathways. I do agree, I also see merit in having the old Nth / Sth Hbr set up down here. Not sure yet on the new shute sheild model. Last year as a whole there was the Woodies, Uni, Manly ironically finished in that order, then a distant second - Uni debate has been going on for years so wont touch that - i do believe both Manly & the Wodies are what "club" rugby is all about.

Sure some guys don't get the shot they deserve and very few make it to the top...that's sport. I and many others could probaly think of 10 players who never got their shot at the elite level due to injury or work commitments/whatever Its just life.
Yeah, maybe, maybe not. Last year Eastwood beat a Super 15 team that played together as well for most of the year - so whose better the "team", or a bunch of players already at the next level. What would be frustrating is the player drain on some of the club teams - and that would be a shame for the Shute Sheild


Bottom line is another tier just isn't sustainable. It costs a fuckload of money for one, and that's something none of the clubs/regions/zones/states have.[/quote] Agreed,

 

[ripper868]

Dave,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Ripper,
Congrats on the sheild last year, won by a true club team built from the bottom up.
The congratulations goes entirely to the club. My minimal Sydney Club Rugby experiences were around Eastwood as a kid, mostly because of Matt Burke. I've never actually played or been affiliated with the club, just a fanboy in a way (grew up out west - past the mountains)

??? The players currently coming back to club rugby obviously want to play, I mean why are they returning.
I meant the idea of an additional competition between the 'elite' parts of each competition on top of the regular season after Grand Finals - which would be mainly composed of the mostly amateur blokes who do it for love each week. Strongly believe that if a player isn't playing Super Rugby, he should be back playing Shute/Premier/John Dent - these competitions are our "next tier" in my eyes.

I do agree, I also see merit in having the old Nth / Sth Hbr set up down here. Not sure yet on the new shute sheild model. Last year as a whole there was the Woodies, Uni, Manly ironically finished in that order, then a distant second - Uni debate has been going on for years so wont touch that - i do believe both Manly & the Wodies are what "club" rugby is all about.
As I mentioned above my expereince in Sydney rugby is pretty minimal (have been in QLD near 15 years now)

Yeah, maybe, maybe not. Last year Eastwood beat a Super 15 team that played together as well for most of the year - so whose better the "team", or a bunch of players already at the next level. What would be frustrating is the player drain on some of the club teams - and that would be a shame for the Shute Sheild

Player drain is why I see the Sute/Prem/John Dent as the next tiers - There is really nothing better than being able to roll down to the local club and see Super Rugby/Wallaby level players running around. (McDulings, Anaes, Murphys in Brisbane Prem for example)

Bottom line is another tier just isn't sustainable. It costs a fuckload of money for one, and that's something none of the clubs/regions/zones/states have.Agreed,

 

[Rugrat]

No thanks. I like that reds and fringe reds players getting a chance to come back and represent their respective clubs and play with their mates. That's what rugby is all about.Playing for some mixed teams with no history, supporters or volunteer support and questionable suitable coaches will not improve Rugby.The quality of games played in the last few rounds of Premier and the finals last year was great and most Importantly comparable to shute shield. let's focus on reality. We have a national team rated number 2 in the world ( better than Sth Africa so their goes argument re curry cup value) nz domestic comp is financially crippled. Otago rugby just went into bankruptcy . We have a very strong under 20 national side, very competitive schools rep teams. Quality premier comp in Qld with ample opportunity for players to developed, think Liam Gill, Jake Schatz, Dallan Murphy etc etc in fact so many of the current reds all played junior rugby in Qld and developed in Premier and Premier colts. And we won the Super 15 so something must be working. We have a good comp and good players. Let's focus on working what we have, fund it further and get everyone out their supporting it. A quality player that can make it at the elite level will rise to it if they have the ability, determination, good club support and coaches and luck re no injuries. The word to focus on is elite. There are limited opportunities that's the nature of being Elite.

 

[tigerland12]

Player drain is why I see the Sute/Prem/John Dent as the next tiers - There is really nothing better than being able to roll down to the local club and see Super Rugby/Wallaby level players running around. (McDulings, Anaes, Murphys in Brisbane Prem for example)

Bottom line is another tier just isn't sustainable. It costs a fuckload of money for one, and that's something none of the clubs/regions/zones/states have.Agreed,

THIS. Love being able to see Reds players down at the local club.

 

[Rugby Central]

to invest or not to invest, either option carries risk - it just comes down to the risk/return trade-off.

The trade-off is they don't have to bother. The academy system means that for every player that leaves, they just go to the academy sales floor and pick out what they need. No cost of development, no investment at the community level, no care for the average rugby fan and no loyalty to supporters. Of course the academy system means you're left with kids running on to the park with little actual game experience and then having their bodies, minds and egos shattered because they're not up to it. Not everyone can be O'Connor.

Why invest in club rugby when you can destroy it through neglect.

 

[Woopsie]

The trade-off is they don't have to bother. The academy system means that for every player that leaves, they just go to the academy sales floor and pick out what they need. No cost of development, no investment at the community level, no care for the average rugby fan and no loyalty to supporters. Of course the academy system means you're left with kids running on to the park with little actual game experience and then having their bodies, minds and egos shattered because they're not up to it. Not everyone can be O'Connor.

Why invest in club rugby when you can destroy it through neglect.

But at least they have had the benefit of some media training!?!?!

Academy systems are a great low cost option - identify some kids with promise, isolate them and have them as "lowly paid apprentices" within a controlled environment learning the trade of a modern day professional rugby player. Strength and conditioning programs, video sessions, media training, drills, scenario game play, a few light hearted games to execute your learnings. They give you a pass to miss your club's pre-season, and will sign off on you retunring for club training for a Thursday night as well as game day. So, these are the battle hardened, emotionally balanced and resilient, strong willed and experienced players to step onto the field when something goes awry?!?

Nick Frisby acquitted himself well on Saturday when he came on (at a difficult time) and I think he can really play, and I am not singling him out (I still think it doesn't matter your age, if you are good enough, then you are simply good enough, whether you be 17 or 37) but Bismark DuPlesis must have been salivating at the prospect at running with the ball at him. He has only had one season in grade playing against men, and it was a shortened one due to injury apparently.

Yes, as you say, there is a production line that the unions don't need to pay for, but it could just be the boulevard of broken bodies and dreams. The academy is not strengthening the foundation of our game; to do that would need some decisions made, some investment made, and I am not convinced that anyone wants to acknowledge that or do anything about it.