A new tier of rugby in Qld

[Woopsie]

I honestly think the creation of an extra tier 'above' club rugby would only weaken and devalue the competitions we already have. What makes you say that? The proposal was to run a "district" competition of maybe 5 or so extra games following the completion of the Club rugby season. So the academy games don't do this already? The players involved haven't yet been seen at club training, they may not play at all for their club.

Go and ask the players who have just played 21 rounds of Premier Rugby if they want to play another 8 for "Northern Metro Brisbane" or somesuch. They don't. I am around these players for roughly 36-40 weeks of the year, and some of them who hold aspirations of being "spotted" for the next level up have all liked the idea saying it would represent something similar to a NFL style "combine" whereby they are surrounded by other aspirants all of similar standard and intentions, all auditioning for the chance to live their dream.

The pathways are there for the country guys to play country and run from there. If they are serious about being a professional they will move to where the professional centres are. A hope and a prayer that takes them out of their community, weakening that very same rugby community without any real basis of experience as to whether they have a realistic chance. The key to strengthening rugby is through building on waht we have, not creating some new comp/tier as ARC showed. The idea was building on what has already been built, it is a natural progression of that ideal, not to be run prior to club rugby season, not to be run concurrently, but run after the season of both Club and Super rugby.

Bottom line is another tier just isn't sustainable. It costs a fuckload of money for one, and that's something none of the clubs/regions/zones/states have. Really?!? Unsustainable?, the cost? it is good to see that you never ever exaggerate!! Are you basing these thoughts on your intimate knowledge of the ARC experiment? The ARU lost $4m with that? I read the paper that day too.

 

[Woopsie]

THIS. Love being able to see Reds players down at the local club.

And so do I.

The Super Rugby Season started 25 February and runs through to July sometime.

Currently the Brisbane comp starts 28 April going through to sometime in September.

By dropping Stingrays and Breakers back to their districts (let's face it, they only supply Prem Grade and Colts teams, so they are more annoying to the other clubs than anything else), and bring the start of the season back a couple of weeks, you still get to see your reds and fringe players with your club.

Then after the club season, you get a chance to see the best players from around the state combining in front of the likes of Reds Management. These players have proven themselves over the season whether in the Reds system, academy and/or club system as to players of ability and potential, who have also shown that their bodies and minds are up to a long schedule. And lets say that long schedule may mean they have played up to about 25 games.

I know I am blinkered because it is something that I have put up for inspection, but I see it as satisfying everyone's desire to;

a. not detract or devalue the club system
b. opens up an arena for players who for whatever reason weren't spotted earlier
c. could be cost effective as it is state based rather than nationally based
d. provides a commonsense pathway that allows the cream to continually rise
e. also provides a pathway for coaches

and could potentially aid in player retention at a club, state and national basis

Who loses here?

 

[tigerland12]

By dropping Stingrays and Breakers back to their districts (let's face it, they only supply Prem Grade and Colts teams, so they are more annoying to the other clubs than anything else), and bring the start of the season back a couple of weeks, you still get to see your reds and fringe players with your club.

Uhhh Gold Coast have been very competitive up untill recent years and Sunny Coast made the finals two seasons back, so not sure why you think they're not worth having?

 

[Woopsie]

Uhhh Gold Coast have been very competitive up untill recent years and Sunny Coast made the finals two seasons back, so not sure why you think they're not worth having?

Not worth having is probably a little harsher than what I would have said.

When playing either team at Sunny Coast or Goldie, clubs are travelling with only a Prems Grade and Colts + benches. This ultimately weakens the teams below them and they travel to Logan or Redlands. When at home it is a different story, but when at home, neither Breakers or Stingrays actually pull in a crowd, because there is no deeply inground rivalry towards them and their supporters don't travel too well because they are a "district" team. I would hazard a guess that no Brisbane club would have Ladies Day pencilled in for either Breakers or Stingrays.

To me it just made sense to do so in order to preserve Club Rugby in Brisbane and the ideals of it.

 

[Rugby Central]

The irony is it would be cheaper and far more effective to reinstitute a decent representative program than the stupid academies. As the cream floats to the top you only have to invest time and money into proven performers. It makes talent identification much easier and State Unions spend nothing on finding real talent. If people wish to disagree just look at some of our greatest Wallabies. Many picked from obscurity of Club rugby after achieving nothing at schoolboy level. With 2 most glaring examples of Farr-Jones and Kearns.

The narrow mindedness and arrogance of the current rugby establishment would never have considered a bunch of upstarts from Matraville High for an academy spot. And thank our lucky stars. Incessent training without game time would have crushed the spirit, style and talent exhibited by the Ellas.

Instead, talented players walk away from the game because they don't make it into the academy. The State Unions too proud and stupid to admit they cocked up, hold onto and pour money into a player who will never be capable of wearing a Gold Jersey.

ACADEMIES HAVE DIMINISHED AUSTRALIAN RUGBY UNION. THEY ARE THE MOST INEFFECTIVE, INEFFICIENT AND RETARDED FORM OF PLAYER IDENTIFICATION AND DEVELOPMENT EVER CONCEIVED

 

[ripper868]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an extra tier to rival the NPC. I would.

I'm sadly a realist.

 

[Woopsie]

Ripper

Then let's not think of it as another tier; as Rugby Central said..."reinstitute a decent representative program", perhaps we could look at my proposal simply as a state based representative program that is run at the conclusion of the club rugby program that incorporates the 8 major districts of Qld and is open to participation of reds players who missed wallaby selection, is open to academy players but is primarily used as a talent identification program, exposing players from around the state to the rigours of travel, heightened performance levels, expectations and accountability. This would surely be a good litmus test for the likes of Reds Management as to whether someone can handle the step from Club to Super rugby? And surely that seems to have a logical progression flow through?

Or we could just be happy with where the status quo currently sits, Rugrat seems quite happy being number 2 in the world citing that the Currie Cup adds no value because we sit above Sth Africa on World Rankings, he also seems happy with where our u/20's sit too, but I cannot remember the last time we beat NZ at that level.

Or, we could simply kick the dirt accepting that nothing changes without action and it is all too hard because the ARU lost $4m a few years back on a poorly executed operation and I am simply a supporter of the game. We like our world as it is, we don't really want to see anything change...because that might be a whole new paradigm. Remember, without us, the likes of Reds Management, the ARU Management do NOT get paid, we are the shareholders and it is the shareholders that have the power.

Or, we could as members of clubs, as stakeholders to this game all continue to call for action, to push for change to be open to new ideas so we as people and as a community all sharing a passion for a common thing, being the game itself, can evolve before we have to change.

If we are not moving forward Ripper, we are moving backwards. And that to me is simply unacceptable

 

[Dave Beat]

With 2 most glaring examples of Farr-Jones and Kearns.. . . . . . Marty Roebuck, Tim Gavin, who was the half back from around the Hunter, it could be a very long list if researched. There is some awesom country talent that goes unsighted becuase of rural commitments, and their enjoyment with the social side of rugby.
Up above some one refers to new entity with no history (ARC's error) - in NSW there use to be Nth V Sth harbour and if proposed tier / leve was built with club support it may work.
NSW Country has always been around, and ACT Kookaburra's also has history.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Biggest stumbling block is that you are looking at merging brisbane teams which have up to 7 grades each I believe. Much larger drawing base for the 2 Brisbane teams.
From there Gold Coast has the next biggest base, but nowhere near enough to really compete. That's 4 currently superior prems teams merging to face one team with an 8 team local comp below it, arguably (being a former player I wish I could say it was better though) lower than Brisbane reserve grade.
From here you've got this substandard Gold Coast team playing against the other Country regions who they toweled up year in, year out for something like the last 5 years of the country championship.
Good concept, however too big a gap in skill levels based on what you propose.

 

[happyjack]

The myth of tradition will always yield to the commercial reality. Competitions cost money and quality competitions cost lots of money. Rugby Aus Inc. has limited funds and the majority of its affiliate base rely on central funding being doled out.
The only real option for a new competition of quality is to maximize the existing assets and attract new investment.
There are probably 4 or 5 clubs who could fund their participation in a competition that involves travel and accommodation (Sydney Uni, QLD Uni, Sunnybank, maybe one other in Sydney). In asking these clubs to have equity in a competition we change the status quo and will automatically see these clubs attract the better and aspiring players. Result is club Rugby becomes recreational and returns to many of the values it held during the 1970s.
Super franchises in Melbourne and Perth have a need to have a feeder team as their club competitions do not meet their needs. They currently spend money which would yield more value if it was a quality competition.
The current High Performance expenditures on Premier Rugby and National Academies could be repackaged and rationalized, either freeing money for other initiatives or putting 2 x Under 20 teams in the competition to boost our performances at this level.
These teams could also compete in a couple of National 7s events to boost this strategy.
None of this will ever happen because our game is not populated by people who promote or handle change well so rest easy.
Creating more rep teams achieves nothing except boosting the sales of Kooga as we buy more jerseys, pools and track suits. This is the sad disease of Junior Rugby where every child makes a rep team eventually, and when they cease to they stop playing.
One aside though is that regional Australia does deserve cross border competition. The ARU should reinstate the Australian Rugby Shield. It is a small price to pay for the support of our game in regional NSW & QLD and areas such as NT and SA.

 

[suckerforred]

Biggest stumbling block is that you are looking at merging brisbane teams which have up to 7 grades each I believe. Much larger drawing base for the 2 Brisbane teams.
From there Gold Coast has the next biggest base, but nowhere near enough to really compete. That's 4 currently superior prems teams merging to face one team with an 8 team local comp below it, arguably (being a former player I wish I could say it was better though) lower than Brisbane reserve grade.
From here you've got this substandard Gold Coast team playing against the other Country regions who they toweled up year in, year out for something like the last 5 years of the country championship.
Good concept, however too big a gap in skill levels based on what you propose.

Not sure if I have the right end of the point you are trying to make... If we follow through to the logical conclusion.... Are you saying that player from the Rebs and Force have no chance of being selected for the Wallabies because the teams have not shown they can 'compete' with the big boys? Not sure this is really correct.

I am thinking that a return to representative fixtures would be good. Yes, from a QLD perspective, Brisbane area will be strong because of the numbers of players and because that is where players who feel they have a chance to play in the higher levels have moved. However, there is talent out there that does not get the chance because for whatever reason they do not move, and a system like this can only provide a decent oportunity for all, not just those lucky enough to go to the right school / uni / city / club. Traditions are great, but if we stuck to traditions, I would not be able to vote, women would not play rugby and the Super Rugby comp would not exist.

 

[Woopsie]

Not sure if I have the right end of the point you are trying to make... If we follow through to the logical conclusion.... Are you saying that player from the Rebs and Force have no chance of being selected for the Wallabies because the teams have not shown they can 'compete' with the big boys? Not sure this is really correct.

I am thinking that a return to representative fixtures would be good. Yes, from a QLD perspective, Brisbane area will be strong because of the numbers of players and because that is where players who feel they have a chance to play in the higher levels have moved. However, there is talent out there that does not get the chance because for whatever reason they do not move, and a system like this can only provide a decent oportunity for all, not just those lucky enough to go to the right school / uni / city / club. Traditions are great, but if we stuck to traditions, I would not be able to vote, women would not play rugby and the Super Rugby comp would not exist.

I don't disagree with either of you, but suckerforred does have a very good point.

We could simply wait until these "weaker" districts/regions/widgets become good enough to compete at this level before they enter, assuming osmosis may come into play here...or we throw them in and they learn through increased competition, and that may mean getting towelled week in week out. But every year they will get stronger as their experience foundation grows, so long as the support continues. Yes they will suffer from losing players along the way who get selected to go up another level, they may even have players poached, they may even see some players within their own ranks feel that by moving somewhere else, that they will see more opportunities.

I can however, guarantee you that if that "weaker" districts/regions/call it what you will, sees that one player that started with that district/region goes on to represent at a high level, they will know that this structure would be worthwhile. The results they experience would pale into insignificance. The structure had been built to allow for the natural progression of talent to rise continually, the process would have worked for all stakeholders and it would be a source of satisfaction and pride for all concerned.

 

[Jets]

I think there is also an issue in regards to the changing social make up of these regions. Many people in rural and regional areas have a hard time finding work that would allow them to train and play to the level required to be competitive at this sort of level. I think that someone would have to do quite a bit of research into the viability of the competition. Is there a demand for this in the areas that the teams will be drawn from?

 

[Woopsie]

I think it was Bruce Ross who said "...they need guidance and opportunity".

Each of the areas have district co-ordinators employed by the QRU, couple of phone calls from each of them, butta bim, butta boom!

But I am sure that a full feasability study could be organised at a very reasonable consultancy rate with some Roy Morgan surveys thrown in.

Seriously, I haven't lived in a country town for quite a while, and things are tough everywhere, but country people are very resilient and most certainly look for good entertainment whenever an opportunity arises.

I don't see how their work situation would be any different or the players would be any different to someone metro trying to find a sympathetic employer to allow them to train. Unless of course you are referring to a possibility of someone needing to travel 200km to get to training.

Give them the opportunity, and then they have a choice whether to grasp that opportunity. Don't give them the opportunity, then they don't have a choice.

 

[suckerforred]

I think there is also an issue in regards to the changing social make up of these regions. Many people in rural and regional areas have a hard time finding work that would allow them to train and play to the level required to be competitive at this sort of level. I think that someone would have to do quite a bit of research into the viability of the competition. Is there a demand for this in the areas that the teams will be drawn from?

I think that you would be suprised Jets at the level of involvement that the employers would take. From the years that I spent in regional areas, anyone who got the oportunity to represent districts / states / nationals were positively encouraged and supported by their employers in those areas. Why - they wanted to keep them as employees as a start and therefore knew if they stood in their way they would be out the door anyway, and also because this brought interest and promotion to the town and therefore improved the prospects of said town. Yes logistics would need to be worked out, but it would not be the first time that someone from Mt Isa went to Townsville every weekend for intensive training with a rep side and then used their annual leave to attend said tournmant.

And as to the demand, again I would say yes. Because it would mean that the oportunities are there for the players, they will get to prove their worth on a larger stage, and if games are held in the district represented it will provide a social and fund raising opportunity for the local community.

 

[tigerland12]

To be honest I'm perfectly happy with the format that is in place now. The only expansion I would consider is:
• Consider expanding to include a Darling Downs side and/or another developing club such as Logan or Redlands. I also think it's worth persisting with the Sunshine Coast, they have their up and downs but it makes the competition more even (hey Norths and Wests have to have a chance of winning atleast once! )
• Secondly, introduce a knock-out style of tournment that is in place through the season. I mentioned this in the thread on developing Australian club rugby, but I do like the FA cup format, it adds a bit more then the two other trophies on offer. It would start with regional/country sides playing off with eachother, then against the lower clubs such as Logan and Redlands, and progressivley versing the Premier Grade sides. Could be played mid-week, and sides might use it as an option to blood a few younger players ect.

Just a thought though, for my first proposition the financials of those clubs and the willingness for the Darling Downs players to travel is a big issue.

 

[Woopsie]

To be honest I'm perfectly happy with the format that is in place now. The only expansion I would consider is:
• Consider expanding to include a Darling Downs side and/or another developing club such as Logan or Redlands. I also think it's worth persisting with the Sunshine Coast, they have their up and downs but it makes the competition more even (hey Norths and Wests have to have a chance of winning atleast once! )
• Secondly, introduce a knock-out style of tournment that is in place through the season. I mentioned this in the thread on developing Australian club rugby, but I do like the FA cup format, it adds a bit more then the two other trophies on offer. It would start with regional/country sides playing off with eachother, then against the lower clubs such as Logan and Redlands, and progressivley versing the Premier Grade sides. Could be played mid-week, and sides might use it as an option to blood a few younger players ect.

Just a thought though, for my first proposition the financials of those clubs and the willingness for the Darling Downs players to travel is a big issue.

Darling Downs side in Premier Grade - Yes, could could be an option. It certainly involves minimal investment on the part of QRU because the cost of travel would be borne by the players themselves. at least 9 games played away at an average of 240km roundtrip per away game. It does strengthen the players picked to make up that side, but also weakens their local competition for the entire year by having them out from their local competition. It also takes away local competition sponsorship availability as most companies would choose to be involved with the DD Premier Team. Brisbane based clubs would also need another "junior" club to fill the breach so that their lower grades were not having byes throughout the season. I personally don't see this as a workable solution without increased grants from the QRU to subsidise clubs who host DD, especially if there was only a Prem Grade and Prem Colts team playing.

An FA Cup style competition - Could be played mid-week? We are talking mainly amateur players here, this would disrupt local teams and their established training routines, time off from work for players and management, lighting needs to be addressed as most clubs do not have lighting sufficient for playing night games, it condenses workload on players and therefore would lead to increased injury rates and therefore insurance claims leading to increased insurance rates paid by the players themselves. This option could involve little investment on the part of the state union, or it could be a cost drain if they picked up the tab for travel. Hosting clubs in my opinion would probably not open their bar due to licensing costs, they may sell a few sausages, but to how many spectators? In reality, there are circa 120 Senior Clubs throughout Qld, so that really equates to 7 games before a winner is crowned, however my concerns still prevail. I am unclear as to what are the real advantages, aside from "Wests and Norths winning" more often than current experience.

I am still convinced that my suggestion holds water

1. push Stingrays and Breakers back to their local competition
2. reduce Brisbane Premier Grade to 10 clubs
3. everyone plays in their local competition as per normal until Grand Final with co-ordinated finish times
4. Each district in Qld (8 including Bris Nth, Bris Sth), then chooses a rep team from their local comp
5. play a 5 week tournament in two pools
6. city/country or two select teams are chosen to face off

Means that the best 200 players from across the state are involved in the district rep comp and culminates in the best 50 players from across the state are involved in the city/country or two select teams clash.

It is at the end of the local comp, well after Super season finish, it hasn't devalued the local comps (it provides long term quality enhancement), reds players still get the opportunity to play for their club with their mates and Reds Management pretty well have an armchair view of the best of the next possible players with proven ability to continually play at a higher level.

I am biased, I know that, but to me that sounds like a good solution for all concerned.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

I think te problem with a darling downs team is that the darling downs is a far bigger geographical area than that of the gold and sunshine coast regions. People in the darling downs come from as far away from as Goondiwindi and Nanango do you expect these lads to travel twice a week to Toowoomba and then most weekend to brisbane,gold coast,north coast. In that sense it would fail......

However i do feel that district teams could be instated as maybe a better system of picking the queensland rep team thats picked each year. As i feel that alot of players get overlooked as they do not play for your uni or sunnybank-esque club. I could be wrong but i dont think Carlos Gavidi or Angus Cottrell where chosen in the team and those two where star performers of the competition in teams that didnt do to well.

 

[League Legend]

I think this subject is a pointless exercise - i am unsure of what it is trying to achieve. Rugby is divided into 2 parts at the moment, professional rugby and ameature rugby. At the moment the pointy end of Australian rugby is in a great position. The wallabies are a strong force in world rugby with several young world class players. We now have five fully professional teams in the best provincial competition in the world with our very own queensland reds as champoins. Our current pathways (mainly brisbane and sydney schools) identify the talent and bring them through into these super 15 set ups. However it does seem apparent, and judging by this thread commonly agreed, that the accademy programs are a load of crap. Were young players are told early how good they are and isolated from mainstream rugby before they have even played open rugby against men. However i think that this point is often overlooked- When Super rugby started Australia had only 3 teams playing against 5 from new zealand and four from South Africa. Now we are at parity with our SANZAR partners. So what im trying to say is that there is certainly enough opportunity for our young players to get a run.

Now on the ameature side of the game. Club rugby in Brisbane is in a very strong position i believe. It is a good product. Head down to any suburban ground on any given saturday and i can guarentee you an enjoyable afternoon. the players love playing premier rugby. Most of them are just normal blokes who love to have a crack and enjoy their rugby. The others that want to play higher honours can standout and will be given futhur opportunities- e.g Angus Cotterell and Dave Harvey from sydney. The traditon and history in club rugby should be looked after and protected to ensure this important ethps pf rugby are maintained.

 

[tigerland12]

Now on the ameature side of the game. Club rugby in Brisbane is in a very strong position i believe. It is a good product. Head down to any suburban ground on any given saturday and i can guarentee you an enjoyable afternoon. the players love playing premier rugby. Most of them are just normal blokes who love to have a crack and enjoy their rugby. The others that want to play higher honours can standout and will be given futhur opportunities- e.g Angus Cotterell and Dave Harvey from sydney. The traditon and history in club rugby should be looked after and protected to ensure this important ethps pf rugby are maintained.

I definatly agree with this. Having that club pride and passion is a good thing. If the sides ended up being put into regional rep sides it just becomes a bit bland. Players do not need changes to have a crack at Super Rugby. Many players have got trials with S15 clubs in the past two years, and a few have gained professional contracts. The likes of Nigel Ah Wong (Sunnybank) and Luke Beauchamp (Brothers) got their chances to trial with Melbourne through their Premier Rugby form, not playing for any representitive side. It also allows for Academy players to show they have the goods playing with the experienced older players in the competition, as most of these players are between 18 and 22.

I really don't think any change is needed, of course there could be some minor tweaks, but there is 100% no need to make any rapid/large changes. But I'm sure 'Whoopsie" will disagree and then go on about how his ideas are right, considering he has done it after everyone elses posts.