2020 Super Rugby Round 1 (REDUX): Reds v Waratahs

[TSR]

I actually saw that post by McDuling on the Twitter. I agree with him entirely. When it's a 5-10m scrum like that it should be a penalty try, that will be enough of an incentive to make sure props are up to it, but they also have to play to get experience. In other parts of the field maybe march the offending team 10m for a full arm penalty with no option for a scrum.

I’d argue there’s a false equivalence in McDuling’s post though. The attack has a chance to expose a wingers lack of
Pace or a centre’s defence and convert it directly to field position or points. But a prop can successfully (intentionally or not) stop the progress of an attacking scrum by collapsing. We do see scrums that are under pressure but hold their shape enough to not concede a penalty.

I do get why people object to the carding, but I think the logic is actually sound.

 

[KOB1987]

I think the ref needs to make a judgement whether the player is intentionally bringing the scrum down or whether he just getting monstered by his opposite, who ironically is actually intentionally making him take the scrum down. It was clearly the latter in this instance and the ref should adjudicate accordingly.

 

[TSR]

Haha - I hope you are not suggesting that the ref should penalise the dominant prop in that example KOB. I can’t agree with you at all if you are.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Paper saying crowd of 5590 yet I thought could have 10k - I don’t understand that as would have thought all tickets would be taken up

 

[Brumbieman]

 

[KOB1987]

Haha - I hope you are not suggesting that the ref should penalise the dominant prop in that example KOB. I can’t agree with you at all if you are.

No not at all, just don't send the weaker unit off.

 

[Hawko]

No not at all, just don't send the weaker unit off.

My question is "Why did Penney keep him on when Ainsley did a much better job of holding it up while he was on?" That, I thought, was poor coaching.

I confidently predict that Bell by the time he reaches 25 will be very, very good. He is just too young and inexperienced to be starting in the front row.

 

[Drew]

Agreed, he has been put in far too early, would be better served coming off the bench and building his game time, skill and confidence. It’s a giant step to be packing down against Tupou less than a year after dismantling the Randwick colts pack in last years grand final. You look at James O’Connor or Leroy Houston on the opposite side of the spectrum, they were lost to Australian rugby for some of their prime years (Or totally in the case of Houston) due to early expectations and how they affect a young mans head and over/under confidence.

 

[fatprop]

I’m a bit torn on the yellow card, it feels wrong for a young front-rower in a domestic comp where the skill differentials are reasonably high but I know if Tupou was doing that in a Wallaby jersey I’d have been very happily calling for the opposition to be binned.

I tend to agree, but I think we need a better solution

 

[fatprop]

My question is "Why did Penney keep him on when Ainsley did a much better job of holding it up while he was on?" That, I thought, was poor coaching.

I confidently predict that Bell by the time he reaches 25 will be very, very good. He is just too young and inexperienced to be starting in the front row.

Getting you head driven out your arse is how a prop learns the reality of his work, days on the training field doesn't do it

 

[Pass it to Dunning!]

Even though Kearns is a notoriously poor commentator I was surprised he questioned the yellow card. Carding props who are getting done over has been around for a while now. Everyone knows the onus is on the prop to be up to it. Whatever else was happening behind him Bell was getting worked over. That’s the trade off a coach has to allow for when he picks a guy like Bell who is fantastic around the field but not quite there at scrum time.

He’ll be better for it though.

People were feeling for Angus Bell because he's 19, brand new and was totally outmatched. And you could see the despair on his face.

 

[Hawko]

In the cold light of day that was both encouraging and depressing. It was men against boys except that the men didn't know how to play and the boys just kept going at it. Depressing, because neither team had the necessary skills or strategy to cope with what the five Kiwi teams would have brought to the game, encouraging because some of those on show held out the promise that one day they could be competitive.

The Waratahs:

1. Mark Bell was outclassed in the scrum and in retrospect should have been the bench prop, not starting against a good scrum like that. It was worrying that Penney had him return after his ten minutes rather than let Ainsley stay on - but Bell is a keeper, he just needs a few years to mature. Likewise HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), though he was good in the loose. While ever Simmons is around Hanigan should be on the bench. They are both too similar in strengths and weaknesses and leave the pack unbalanced. If Tafa is not up to it, and it looks like Penney thinks he isn't, then our poor recruiting of the last five years will have to be reversed by spending big bucks on a proper tight-head lock. Except of course we don't have any big bucks!

Just noticed I have called Faulkner as Ainsley in several posts. My BAD! Old timers syndrome.

 

[Quick Hands]

Enjoyed the game. Great to see talented young Aussie rugby players ripping in.

Domestic pro league is the way to go. Bring it on.

I am just going outside and may be some time.

 

[TSR]

People were feeling for Angus Bell because he's 19, brand new and was totally outmatched. And you could see the despair on his face.

I get that - although to be honest I don’t feel ‘sorry’ for him as such. Not do I think Penney necessarily did the wrong thing by him.

No doubt Bell was frustrated and disappointed in himself. He’s a pro rugby player and a bloody good one who, from my long distant view, seems to love the challenge. But what happened to him was inevitable and it will happen again as it happened to guys like Slipper, Greg Holmes, Tupou, Baxter etc

Some of those guys got through it and became dominant scrummagers. Some, not so much. As Fat Prop said above these guys have to learn on the job and part of that learning is taking your beatings (and hopefully learning from them).

Despite his scrum issues I thought Bell actually had a pretty decent game, and my instinct is that he will become a good scrummager over time. In the meantime he’ll have bad days and better days.

None of this explains why Kearns, an experienced rugby commentator, was expressing surprise that the ref yellow carded a prop for repeat infringements - a practice that has been common place for at least 10 years now.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

I am just going outside and may be some time.

 

[Froggy]

Well, I thoroughly enjoyed the game, and some of you should just watch Kiwi rugby, because you will simply never be happy. I mean, here were two very young, inexperienced sides in their first game back after a four month lay-off, of course there were mistakes.

I can't believe how well the Tahs defence stepped up, after the pathetic start to the year. Swinton had his best game so far at this level, long may it continue, Harrison continues to improve, Maddocks was really at home at 15 and Ramm, while he made some mistakes, looks the goods. I'm not too worried about Bell, 19 is a toddler in prop years, two years ago we were worrying about Tupou's scrummaging! The growth in strength and guile in a prop between 19 and 22 is significant. Ned was pretty indifferent, but I'll cut him a bit of slack, as it's his first run since 2019, having missed the start of the season with concussion issues. The only guy I think really out of his depth is Mark N (Nawaqanitawase), needs a season off the bench to mature to this level.

To me the only real disappointment was the discipline. If they keep giving up penalties like they did last night, they are playing with one arm tied behind their back.

The Reds were also pretty exciting I thought, Wright is the real deal. For me, Wright at 6 and Hooper at 7 would look very smart in Gold, with Isi at 8. Also very impressed with McDermott, quick, clever and a real thinker. People are saying he should have the reserve scrum half job, but if he keeps playing like that I've got him starting.

 

[The Nomad]

Yep , big improvement defensively by the Tahs .

Defence always a good indicator to where a team is at , and last night’s effort shows the young Tahs team are up to it.

Maybe also a little golf clap to Jason Gilmore , players still have to make the tackles , but rate him as a coach .

Also have to agree that Mark N (Nawaqanitawase) needs time to develop defensively away from Super Rugby. Have no idea whether he can tackle or not , but he rarely puts himself in position to make one .

 

[The torpedo]

TBH I'm sort of not surprised the reds were so shit. I had a feeling this game was gnna turn out like that. Not to metion qld v nsw and they would have been revved up to play. Not to mention losing key players and running out for a match for the first time in ages. (obviously the need to improve ASAP).

That said, Phil Kearns was a disgrace. Actually ruined the match for me. Legit started telling him to shut up.

Wouldn't have minded if Timmy Horan told him to shut the fuck up live on air.

 

[The torpedo]

had to google this.

wft

that's not a mullet. Where I'm from that's just a very classy distinguished hairdo. Like a CEO or some shit.

That'll need a LOT of MS-Paint sculpting to enter mullet territory

Living up to his nickname of helmet