2017 Under-20 Competitions including Oceania & World U20s

[Silverado]

Just watched England v Wales, and while England were more comfortable winners than us, it's not all doom in gloom. Wales pack dominated so we should more than match England there. The English backs are impressive in attack but some flaws defensively. I don't know if it's a coaching directive, but we need to stop piffing the ball out wide with no angle/hole running which is so predictable. If I was betting I'd have my hard earned on England, but I'm not ruling us out. We very nearly did it last year. I suspect the Wales starting lineup will take the field, but some tweaking in reserves. Any thoughts?


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[TOCC]

I really don't understand this comment?????

Why would we need a new comp (obviously sarcastically)? i was merely pointing out it's new and will gradually build. Our u20s opportunities are considerably better than it was 2years ago.

unless its going to build into a longer season then i think the current U20s setup is completely wrong, players simply aren't playing enough rugby.

Hamish Stewart for example, i actually think he is an incredibly talented athlete, has a big boot, a good pass and a quite good running game. However, he is a an average rugby union player, he doesn't read the game that well, he plays to a coaching script rather then what the the opposition defensive alignment is doing. He is a byproduct of not playing enough rugby in the past 12 months and its going to hurt him in future seasons.

Through the colts and U20s age bracket, players should be playing maximum amount of rugby, but Stewart was sitting on the bench of the Reds, which is beneficial, but he still needs to be playing rugby.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Now where have I heard the one about a Lock who is ineffective around the ground but is a whiz at running a lineout? Seems familiar.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

unless its going to build into a longer season then i think the current U20s setup is completely wrong, players simply aren't playing enough rugby.

Hamish Stewart for example, i actually think he is an incredibly talented athlete, has a big boot, a good pass and a quite good running game. However, he is a an average rugby union player, he doesn't read the game that well, he plays to a coaching script rather then what the the opposition defensive alignment is doing. He is a byproduct of not playing enough rugby in the past 12 months and its going to hurt him in future seasons.

Through the colts and U20s age bracket, players should be playing maximum amount of rugby, but Stewart was sitting on the bench of the Reds, which is beneficial, but he still needs to be playing rugby.

Stewart was on the reds bench because of past failings in talent identification.
As you say, he needs game time but because the planning is so woeful there is no one between Quade cooper and him. So he loses game time because the reds (and this only an example - its common place) didn't identify a suitable 10 somewhere in the 7 or so years between QC (Quade Cooper) and Stewart.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Just watched England v Wales, and while England were more comfortable winners than us, it's not all doom in gloom. Wales pack dominated so we should more than match England there. The English backs are impressive in attack but some flaws defensively. I don't know if it's a coaching directive, but we need to stop piffing the ball out wide with no angle/hole running which is so predictable. If I was betting I'd have my hard earned on England, but I'm not ruling us out. We very nearly did it last year. I suspect the Wales starting lineup will take the field, but some tweaking in reserves. Any thoughts?


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Is this a plan?
Surely Cron's not planning to unleash an angles and dummy runner game v England? You'd expect them to want to try it under game pressure before then.
Didn't see any of Oceania - was this the mode of attack used then?
Samoa played the same.
Do they fancy the chances of ball retention with outside backs at the first breakdown?
It's a bit like baseline rallying in tennis. Is that the rationale?
Don't try to create opportunities let them come to you.
As you can see: I'm intrigued.

 

[RugbyReg]

Now where have I heard the one about a Lock who is ineffective around the ground but is a whiz at running a lineout? Seems familiar.

He's captaining the Brumbies well though.

 

[Rebels3]

He's captaining the Brumbies well though.

I thought he was out with a shoulder injury up in QLD? Or am i getting confused with the guy down in NSW.

At least ino Brumby Runner isn't dissing the Rebels, he did mention whiz at running a lineout.

 

[amirite]

unless its going to build into a longer season then i think the current U20s setup is completely wrong, players simply aren't playing enough rugby.

Hamish Stewart for example, i actually think he is an incredibly talented athlete, has a big boot, a good pass and a quite good running game. However, he is a an average rugby union player, he doesn't read the game that well, he plays to a coaching script rather then what the the opposition defensive alignment is doing. He is a byproduct of not playing enough rugby in the past 12 months and its going to hurt him in future seasons.

Through the colts and U20s age bracket, players should be playing maximum amount of rugby, but Stewart was sitting on the bench of the Reds, which is beneficial, but he still needs to be playing rugby.

An Aus U20s player in a year (if uninjured) plays 4-5 Super 20s games, 2-3 warm-up test matches or the equivalent in Super games, 3-5 U20 WC games, 3-6 Super or club 1st XV games, and then 7-9 NRC games in a year.

They play plenty of good football.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Stewart was on the reds bench because of past failings in talent identification.
As you say, he needs game time but because the planning is so woeful there is no one between Quade cooper and him. So he loses game time because the reds (and this only an example - its common place) didn't identify a suitable 10 somewhere in the 7 or so years between QC (Quade Cooper) and Stewart.

But the Reds had McIntyre and Mason as the U20s No 10s in intervening years and the hype was that both of them were the best in the country and would in short time be rusted on Wallabies. Neither has yet shown that they can grow into the adult game, and I suspect Stewart will be in the same boat.

It is not just a Reds' thing. The U20s coaching staff also had the same opinion of the three players. There is a problem across the board in Aus rugby where they are entranced by No 10s who look pretty in their play but who really don't have the skills to go on from there to be successful at Super Rugby level. There must be a better system for identifying good No 10 prospects. The current system simply isn't working.

 

[Braveheart81]

It is not just a Reds' thing. The U20s coaching staff also had the same opinion of the three players. There is a problem across the board in Aus rugby where they are entranced by No 10s who look pretty in their play but who really don't have the skills to go on from there to be successful at Super Rugby level. There must be a better system for identifying good No 10 prospects. The current system simply isn't working.

I don't think there are a stack of better 10s missing out though.

They've pretty clearly been the best of an average bunch.

 

[The sage]

O'k fellas nice banter, but we have a game to get to.

I think Silverado's post above is a fair view on the game. Of course we can win it and I agree that the starting line-up for Wales, (with one or two exceptions) will be on the park against England.

So if we look at the stats against Wales (I have somewhat discounted England's game against Samoa) England had more offloads than us (12 to 7), Conceded more turnovers (14 to 11) and and didn't win more turnovers (5 to 11). So we can have them at the break-downs (if we continue to work hard there). We do have to watch their offloads and they did score a least two tries from fairly good offloads; so the tackles must either smother or "stick".

In the set piece we look a little better. In the scrum we should be able to hold them and hopefully put a little pressure on them. I don't think there will be considerable advantage here and given the niggles in the front row (from both teams, but I am hearing that England have more) am willing to call this an even game, with the Aussies having a slight advantage.

In the line-outs is where we have an advantage. They have a a 76% win rate (ours is 85% and 83%) so we may have an advantage there; maybe we need to put pressure on them at the line-out a few rolling mauls (because I'm sure they will do that to us), pick n drives. If we think we are better in the forwards then this is our avenue for success, so lets use it. The other point here is that forward play is energy sapping and hopefully that will work in our favour.

England kick a lot (27 to our 22) and field position is going to critical, particularly in the first 40 mins; also means it may be a little boring (but where here to win a game, right!). Stewart will be prominent here.

For our backs we need to a play it simple and for god's sake hold the ball! (Focus on the pass and watch it clearly into your hands, then worry about the s**t that going to go down!); And no dodgy half break passes at the beginning of the game. A ball dropped is a ball lost, if you fall to the ground then you have a better than even chance to retain possession. Can't win a game without the ball.

I think since the backs have had limited time together, we can't be as fancy at the start of the game and therefore simple draw and pass is the answer; running at the line maybe the answer with backs closer to each other and not as much lateral movement (such in 7's rugby). To date we have got away with it, but with better teams you risk being pushed behind the gain line.

Lastly discipline again has again been an issue. It was good against Wales (6 penalties conceded, but 1 Yellow), however against Samoa 12 penalties and 1 yellow, is not good enough! The yellows are from tip-tackles and obviously a tackle that in my day would have been raved about is not acceptable today. DON'T DO IT GUYS! In the last game there was an interpretation problem at the break-down; captain needs to talk to the referee about the interpretation after the 2nd penalty conceded and get a clean ruling; give away 12 penalties against England you will lose!

Aussies by 6 points!

 

[amirite]

Lastly discipline again has again been an issue. It was good against Wales (6 penalties conceded, but 1 Yellow), however against Samoa 12 penalties and 1 yellow, is not good enough! The yellows are from tip-tackles and obviously a tackle that in my day would have been raved about is not acceptable today. DON'T DO IT GUYS! In the last game there was an interpretation problem at the break-down; captain needs to talk the the referee about the interpretation after the 2nd penalty conceded and get a clean ruling; give away 12 penalties against England you will lose!

Aussies by 6 points!

Refs target roughly 12 penalties a team as their base line. This is commonly discussed in their private meetings. 12 isn't a big deal.

The Yellows are though.

 

[The sage]

Ok my team

1 Cody Walker - Scrummages well, good in general play; solid. Let's hope he lasts for at least 35 mins. and then come on for more later.

2 Jordan Uelese - has proven to be the best #2. Nice line-out throws good general play. Whole game from him.

3 Shambeckler Vui - very solid, plays with passion, want him there until at least the 60th min. He is the sole of our scrum.

4 Ryan McCauley - more confidence this year, need him in the line-out, but needs to impose himself. Did miss him in the Samoa game.

5 Harry Hocking - Mr Line-out! His athletic skill is second to none, now for a little more aggression and start imposing himself and we may have a Rod McCall on our hands.

6 Angus Scott-Young - He just wants to win (ffs)! More definition at the break down will give him that.

7 Liam Wright - Missed in the last game, I think his break down skill to at the higher end from what I have seen; then there is always the option at the line-out, a must.

8 Reece Hewat (c) - This is the best rugby I have seen Reece play (and I've watched him since he was 13). He is engaging at the break-down (finally) and wants to be with his piggy's; go Reece.

9. Harry Nucifora - Think he is the calmest 9; kicking just a little more confident than Goddard, but we will need both to win.

10 Hamish Stewart (vc) - His kicking in general play (for field position) will invaluable in this game. Has the backs structured, but needs to take on the line more. He's as tough as the farmers fence posts, just needs to pull it all together for this one.

11 Simon Kennewell - Unlucky in the first match. Felt more secure with him on the field. We will need him to control their outside backs and possibly produce counterattacks with with other 7's partners in crime.

12 Sione Tuipulotu - Didn't know much about this young fella, but as I've watched, love him. Very capable second 5/8, can kick, just has energy at the ball. Need to see that again!

13 Izaia Perese - Had the dropsies against Wales, but proved to be a match winner when given the chance. Nagging knee (not ankle) injury may have something to do with it; required for at least 65 mins to give 100% and hopefully hold the ball and make those breaks.

14 Henry Hutchison - Really good finisher, would like more involvement around the park as I think he has the skill and maturity to give that.

15 Liam McNamara - Was unsure of him at first, but he just loves to play and particularly with his 7's buddy's. Security of the ball and clear exists are a must; then you can have fun!

16 Efitusi Maafu - Has been out of sorts on tour and pushed the ball a little, but required to pick up if given the chance. Just stay calm.

17 Sama Malolo - Hasn't got on the park yet, but will have to be back-up for the prop/hooker position.

18 Harry Johnson-Holmes - The red headed Novocastrian juggernaut. Want him on in about the 32nd minute to give the Poms a comeuppance. Loves his hands on the ball, good around the park, can sniff a ball like a wild boar sniffs a truffle on a fresh Tuscan night.

19 Lachlan Swinton - Want him as an impact player just like HJ-H. Good at the line-out and general play; can play back-row and second row so his versatility makes him a must.

20 Rob Valetini - Hard running back rower, good at the break-down and in general play. Looks a little underdone (injury?) but necessary for this one.

21 Harrison Goddard - Offers something different to Nucifora and hence is very necessary. Can kick and has got that good snipping sense around set pieces. Will be required for at least 25-30 mins.

22 Dylan Riley - Has shown glimpses of form when given an open field. Has all the attributes, just needs to clear his head and focus; clearly the best reserve outside back.

23 Semisi Tupou - This young fella has done a great job; still a little "shy" but can't fault his defense and attacking ability. Will get a run at some stage.

 

[The sage]

Refs target roughly 12 penalties a team as their base line. This is commonly discussed in their private meetings. 12 isn't a big deal.

The Yellows are though.

Take your point, but really that's crap; it's like a highway patrolmen needing 20 tickets a day to justify his existence! It's not about them (the ref's), it's about rugby. The less they are involved (disrupting momentum etc) the better the games are?

I know they need to keep control but some of the penalties, particularly when the team with the ball gets penalised (and the opposition has not contested or won't win the ball) is just EXCESSIVE AUTHORITY and surely we don't want that? Let the game flow, that why we all love it....running rugby.

 

[Rebels3]

The game will be won or lost with how much dominance Uelese and Vui can get over their counterparts. Both arguably the best in their positions in the competition. Probably in the centres we have an advantage as well with Perese and Tuipulotu but apart from some nice finishers out wide i can't see us having the advantage anywhere else. Maybe some parity at 9. I'd actually be starting a back row of Valetini, Hewitt and Wright just to take the fight upto the English to create as much adline ball as possible as Stewart has struggled so far. Their bench looks deeper than ours as well.

 

[Happy to Chat]

Our biggest problem is not attack, having watched the England team playing we will need to defend and tackle well, one high tackle and a yellow we're f@&$. As Sage said discipline is the key.


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[Silverado]

Spot on Sage with the team up to 20. Obviously Goddard at 21, then it gets interesting. I think Riley has played himself in at 22 and Jooste played himself out. The only thing that might save Jooste is his versatility by being able to fill in 10,12 and 15 but he's really off his game. Tupou impressed v Samoa. Don't know much about him, is he usually a winger? Also is Jayden Ngamanu still about?



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[Silverado]

^^^^
Ahh, just saw you fill in your picks. In total agreement


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[The sage]

The game will be won or lost with how much dominance Uelese and Vui can get over their counterparts. Both arguably the best in their positions in the competition. Probably in the centres we have an advantage as well with Perese and Tuipulotu but apart from some nice finishers out wide i can't see us having the advantage anywhere else. Maybe some parity at 9. I'd actually be starting a back row of Valetini, Hewitt and Wright just to take the fight upto the English to create as much adline ball as possible as Stewart has struggled so far. Their bench looks deeper than ours as well.

Yes I think your right in a lot of what you say; but the timing of the replacements I think will be critical.

Think Harry Johnson-Holmes on at the 32 min, then Valetini and Swinton on between the 50th to 60 min. I wouldn't start Valetini, not good enough at the line-out and we want to dominate them (if possible) for at least the first half.

I think Stewart hasn't struggled thus far, but his execution has not been of his high standard. I have not doubt he will improve.

From what you have said, you think (like me), it will be close. I think our bench is only weak in the front row (as we have a hooker covering). Think all the rest of the reserves I've named above bring different skills to the starters and are competent footballers.

As all English sides I think they will use pressure from the box kick, however I think our guys in the back 3 (our 7's trio) will have that more than covered.

 

[The sage]

^^^^
Ahh, just saw you fill in your picks. In total agreement


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Will you be patient Silverado!! Hey any injuries you and HTC have got a sniff of??