2015 IRB Junior Rugby World Cup - Italy
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's a lot better than it used to be FTS, that's for sure.
I think NSW processed over 100 youngsters; if their club coaches thought they were halfway decent they could show up at the start of the programme - about five months ago.
NSW didn't want to look at the lads they had seen in 2014 first up, just the new guys. Then some were culled and the 2014 candidates (some of whom made the team) who were still age-eligible, joined in; then the fellows involved in the NRC who were forced to have a break were added in.
They trained up a storm in December getting more game content and some refereed hitouts - and then the group was cut to 35 in the new year.
The best of them trained with the Waratahs sometimes and played in the Gen Blue (Waratahs A) games.
After five trial games or refereed hit-outs the new year group was cut to 25 for the Championship.
And yarda, yarda. The same kind of thing would have happened in Queensland.
There has been hardly one complaint in the forum about the system; before the new system the forum was chock-full with complaints.
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It's a lot better than it used to be FTS, that's for sure.
I think NSW processed over 100 youngsters; if their club coaches thought they were halfway decent they could show up at the start of the programme - about five months ago.
NSW didn't want to look at the lads they had seen in 2014 first up, just the new guys. Then some were culled and the 2014 candidates (some of whom made the team) who were still age-eligible, joined in; then the fellows involved in the NRC who were forced to have a break were added in.
They trained up a storm in December getting more game content and some refereed hitouts - and then the group was cut to 35 in the new year.
The best of them trained with the Waratahs sometimes and played in the Gen Blue (Waratahs A) games.
After five trial games or refereed hit-outs the new year group was cut to 25 for the Championship.
And yarda, yarda. The same kind of thing would have happened in Queensland.
There has been hardly one complaint in the forum about the system; before the new system the forum was chock-full with complaints.
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Hi guys my view is that all coaches and selectors will by now have a very complete profile for each player including injury history where known and a SWOT type analysis as well.for National Champoonships.
But boy dont think the politics stops now , if anything it starts now.
I reckon a healthy robust debate about player selection keeps everyone alert and it should.With the next task of grooming training and selecting a "mob" capable of being competitive at JWC thatis another level again with other crucial factors becoming important including experience which is the hardest commodity to procure in a narrow age window such as 20s.
so looking forward to this championship its becoming addictive watching and assessing the next gen. and I notice I am not the only one judging by comments from learened scribes on this forum.
But boy dont think the politics stops now , if anything it starts now.
I reckon a healthy robust debate about player selection keeps everyone alert and it should.With the next task of grooming training and selecting a "mob" capable of being competitive at JWC thatis another level again with other crucial factors becoming important including experience which is the hardest commodity to procure in a narrow age window such as 20s.
so looking forward to this championship its becoming addictive watching and assessing the next gen. and I notice I am not the only one judging by comments from learened scribes on this forum.
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
No one is suggesting that "politics" has been eliminated, and I am fairly sure that the NSW, QLD, and Barbars connections will be lobbying hard for as many of their squad to be selected for the Gold Jumper as is possible. Don't underestimate the lengths that some parents, player managers, and other interested parties will go to in support of their charges. You just need to look at the endless banter on the respective Super Rugby Threads and the Wallaby Watch threads to see how divergent opinions are about who are the best 23 players for the respective squads. The NSW folk on here only get to see the QLD players in action at National U16's (now discontinued) and National Schoolboys championships, those who make Australian Schoolboys, and the few who get on the TV for NRC teams. The QLD folk that don't get to make it to Riverview see nothing of the NSW, Vic, WA or ACT players unless they make schoolboys or they travel to Sydney for Nationals, or the players make it to the NRC. It is part of the human condition that you will advocate for what you know and see, so in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, a WA supporter seeing a WA player absolutely tear it up at the Southern States U20 championships on the back of sound performances in the WA Premier rugby competition will firmly believe that player has a bloody good shot at a Gold Jumper. Substitute other the names above for NSW, QLD, etc and similar applies.
It is chalk and cheese comparing how the national U20 squad was selected prior to 2014 to how it is done now. Previously the team was selected based on performance at 3 invitation only selection camp weekends. Warm up trial games to confirm skills and abilities in a tough game environment were almost non existent, and many were selected on the strength of their previous scrapbook, and ability to demonstrate the precise skills that they were being taught and endlessly practicing in their rather exclusive academies during the weekend selection camps. In saying that, players with impressive schoolboy and Koala Club scrapbooks like the Liam Gill's, Luke Jones's, and Finger bros of this world were always going to be selected for the U20s. The process was still shrouded in Masonic like secrecy, with the lad who didn't have a full schoolboy scrapbook not getting much of a look in.
Adrian Thompson seems a fairly up front and honest sort of fellow, and one can only guess that he has issued guidance to the respective State and territory Selectors on how to run a transparent selection process for their teams. He seems to be interested in getting the best young men in front of the Clipboards, not the best scrapbooks. While QLD and NSW have probably had a greater ability to cast a wide net at the initial stages of the selection process, all the big stakeholders started the 2015 process with large training squads, narrowing the numbers down over time based on performance and attitude at training and in trial games. Having seen the composition of the initial NSW train on squad, there were plenty of "unknowns" who were given a chance to impress Rappy and other selectors. Those cut will be returning to their clubs the better for their time in the train on squad, and they are no longer Nigel Nobodies. Current form, performance, attitude and potential seems to have driven the NSW squad selection process, with some incumbents and others with rather impressive schoolboy scrapbooks being cut, and some late bloomers being included.
I agree with @insight that there will always be some missed talent. Some young men with potential have missed out due to injuries at critical stages of the selection process. Sh!t happens, just ask Daniel Carter. Some very talented players who would be an automatic run on selection elsewhere will be stuck behind an even more talented player in their position, a la the Chris "Anthems" Whittaker and George Gregan scenario.
Based on the limited exposure to players that I have had, I think that some of the NSW players cut may have been hard done by. I make that observation in complete ignorance of seeing them perform at training and in trial games over an extremely extended period that the coaches, advisors and selectors have had. It is all too easy to remember the awesome performance of Athlete X in rather one sided Schoolboy game, reinforced by a similar performances at on Day 1 of National Schoolboys when their team thrashed their opponents, and in another couple of easy Colts 1 games after they leave school. Tim Rapp and Co have seen these athletes on a very frequent basis and under pressure, and they are very well placed, and far more qualified than most keyboard warriors are, to make an informed decision on who should be in the final squad. Unlike the keyboard selectors, they have a huge vested interest in selecting the best players to execute their game plan to compete at U20 National Championships. These guys are professional coaches and future coaching positions depend on the performance of their team. I could almost guarantee similar applies to the Queensland and Barbarian squads.
All that being said, it is my uninformed view that NSW will win the tournament comfortably and get at least 10 players in the National Squad.
It is chalk and cheese comparing how the national U20 squad was selected prior to 2014 to how it is done now. Previously the team was selected based on performance at 3 invitation only selection camp weekends. Warm up trial games to confirm skills and abilities in a tough game environment were almost non existent, and many were selected on the strength of their previous scrapbook, and ability to demonstrate the precise skills that they were being taught and endlessly practicing in their rather exclusive academies during the weekend selection camps. In saying that, players with impressive schoolboy and Koala Club scrapbooks like the Liam Gill's, Luke Jones's, and Finger bros of this world were always going to be selected for the U20s. The process was still shrouded in Masonic like secrecy, with the lad who didn't have a full schoolboy scrapbook not getting much of a look in.
Adrian Thompson seems a fairly up front and honest sort of fellow, and one can only guess that he has issued guidance to the respective State and territory Selectors on how to run a transparent selection process for their teams. He seems to be interested in getting the best young men in front of the Clipboards, not the best scrapbooks. While QLD and NSW have probably had a greater ability to cast a wide net at the initial stages of the selection process, all the big stakeholders started the 2015 process with large training squads, narrowing the numbers down over time based on performance and attitude at training and in trial games. Having seen the composition of the initial NSW train on squad, there were plenty of "unknowns" who were given a chance to impress Rappy and other selectors. Those cut will be returning to their clubs the better for their time in the train on squad, and they are no longer Nigel Nobodies. Current form, performance, attitude and potential seems to have driven the NSW squad selection process, with some incumbents and others with rather impressive schoolboy scrapbooks being cut, and some late bloomers being included.
I agree with @insight that there will always be some missed talent. Some young men with potential have missed out due to injuries at critical stages of the selection process. Sh!t happens, just ask Daniel Carter. Some very talented players who would be an automatic run on selection elsewhere will be stuck behind an even more talented player in their position, a la the Chris "Anthems" Whittaker and George Gregan scenario.
Based on the limited exposure to players that I have had, I think that some of the NSW players cut may have been hard done by. I make that observation in complete ignorance of seeing them perform at training and in trial games over an extremely extended period that the coaches, advisors and selectors have had. It is all too easy to remember the awesome performance of Athlete X in rather one sided Schoolboy game, reinforced by a similar performances at on Day 1 of National Schoolboys when their team thrashed their opponents, and in another couple of easy Colts 1 games after they leave school. Tim Rapp and Co have seen these athletes on a very frequent basis and under pressure, and they are very well placed, and far more qualified than most keyboard warriors are, to make an informed decision on who should be in the final squad. Unlike the keyboard selectors, they have a huge vested interest in selecting the best players to execute their game plan to compete at U20 National Championships. These guys are professional coaches and future coaching positions depend on the performance of their team. I could almost guarantee similar applies to the Queensland and Barbarian squads.
All that being said, it is my uninformed view that NSW will win the tournament comfortably and get at least 10 players in the National Squad.
Charlies son Bob
Stan Wickham (3)
Some further information via Rugby News - NSW Under 20s
http://www.rugbynews.net.au/junior-tahs-begin-australian-u20-title-defence/
Let the games begin
http://www.rugbynews.net.au/junior-tahs-begin-australian-u20-title-defence/
Let the games begin
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Don't think the numbers for the players mean anything: they could just be the numbers of the jerseys they will use for the whole tournament.
It's not a bad idea because the numbers given to an ostensible 1st XV would be counter-productive.
If the Rugby News guy put his own numbers in he got the first three right when he formatted the list the way they did, which confused the issue.
130kg Francis Brown on the blindside flank? that's funny.
Craig and Fifita at lock? Interesting but unlikely - a bit short for mine.
Nick Kellaway at scrummie? He is big-hearted and would try anything if asked, but I doubt it.
Neddy Hanigan as the opensider? He would back himself as he does with most things. Olly might back himself at 10 also, but not too many of his team mates would be convinced.
To be fair to the Rugby News guy: he wouldn't know these players and didn't know that the list given to him was not a First XV plus others.
Henry Hutchison at outside centre? That's more like it: accidentally, though he will probably play on the wing, as the youngest player in the squad, and whom they may think will need the help of the touchline on defence.
I doubt that - he is small but he not too many other backs will be knocking over big guys with the technique he has, and he will be one of the smartest guys on defence in the reading of play.
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Don't think the numbers for the players mean anything: they could just be the numbers of the jerseys they will use for the whole tournament.
It's not a bad idea because the numbers given to an ostensible 1st XV would be counter-productive.
If the Rugby News guy put his own numbers in he got the first three right when he formatted the list the way they did, which confused the issue.
130kg Francis Brown on the blindside flank? that's funny.
Craig and Fifita at lock? Interesting but unlikely - a bit short for mine.
Nick Kellaway at scrummie? He is big-hearted and would try anything if asked, but I doubt it.
Neddy Hanigan as the opensider? He would back himself as he does with most things. Olly might back himself at 10 also, but not too many of his team mates would be convinced.
To be fair to the Rugby News guy: he wouldn't know these players and didn't know that the list given to him was not a First XV plus others.
Henry Hutchison at outside centre? That's more like it: accidentally, though he will probably play on the wing, as the youngest player in the squad, and whom they may think will need the help of the touchline on defence.
I doubt that - he is small but he not too many other backs will be knocking over big guys with the technique he has, and he will be one of the smartest guys on defence in the reading of play.
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Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
Not usual to have your captain starting from the bench/not even in the allowable starting 23.
I also chuckle at the prospect of seeing Ed Craig and Vinipola Fifita at Lock, and Nick Kellaway at scrumhalf with Olly Kamp as his flyhalf.
I also chuckle at the prospect of seeing Ed Craig and Vinipola Fifita at Lock, and Nick Kellaway at scrumhalf with Olly Kamp as his flyhalf.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
I see they are still spelling Lukhan Lealaiaualoto's name incorrectly; but you could hardly blame them
He is called by his first name, pronounced Loo-CARN.
The incorrect spelling is from Schools rep programs and everybody used that spelling for a while, including me.
At least they have got the spelling of "Hanigan" correct these days.
That photo is a bit bogus.
They got the players together during a training session in January when I was talking to a physio, and by the time I ran over there at full pace (a medium shamble) they had broken up.
Several of the guys aren't in the team anymore and at least half a dozen weren't there (some were with the physio).
PS - I see that Jonah Placid is named as starting fullback tonight for the Rebels. I doubt that he will be playing for the Aus Baas 20s against Queensland tomorrow.
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He is called by his first name, pronounced Loo-CARN.
The incorrect spelling is from Schools rep programs and everybody used that spelling for a while, including me.
At least they have got the spelling of "Hanigan" correct these days.
That photo is a bit bogus.
They got the players together during a training session in January when I was talking to a physio, and by the time I ran over there at full pace (a medium shamble) they had broken up.
Several of the guys aren't in the team anymore and at least half a dozen weren't there (some were with the physio).
PS - I see that Jonah Placid is named as starting fullback tonight for the Rebels. I doubt that he will be playing for the Aus Baas 20s against Queensland tomorrow.
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Dctarget
Tim Horan (67)
Starting fullback for the rebels in tonight's game.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Yeah McMahon got in the U20s last year as captain though he didn't play in the nationals. It's just a pity that the Aus Baas 20s won't be able to use Placid.
There a good report on the Baas game yesterday here:
http://www.rugby.com.au/News/NewsAr...ians-claim-bonus-point-win-against-Tonga.aspx
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hey lee you know about a player Brad Wilkin from Queensland, see he is going away with the aussie 7s team, a flanker played aussie schoolboys and playing firsts grade for easts , turns 20 this year.. but doesnt seem to be in qld 20s team???
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Yeah his situation is the same as the Super Rugby players.
He need not participate in the U20 nationals but can be still be picked for the World U20s. Like McMahon last year he would be expected to attend the first camp at Bond Uni - then play against the Kiwis and others in the Oceania tournament as part of the camp. He has to get the content from the coaches.
His availability is mentioned by the coach here:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/78092/
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He need not participate in the U20 nationals but can be still be picked for the World U20s. Like McMahon last year he would be expected to attend the first camp at Bond Uni - then play against the Kiwis and others in the Oceania tournament as part of the camp. He has to get the content from the coaches.
His availability is mentioned by the coach here:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/78092/
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Peej
Allen Oxlade (6)
Along the lines with Placid starting for Rebels and you would assume he comes straight into the Aus U20 squad will it be the same with Campbell Magnay? Has been playing quite well in his chances for a young bloke in a badly performing team. Potentially a big strong backline for the team.
As for the conversation about hosting the tournament i think it would be fantastic and not hard to source the facilities. You would assume training bases would revolve around the private schools who can host many large groups and for stadiums id think places like Leichhardt oval and Concord could easily being organised. The tigers only play 4 games a year there and if you had to give West Harbour a couple of away games early in the SS season so be it.
As for the conversation about hosting the tournament i think it would be fantastic and not hard to source the facilities. You would assume training bases would revolve around the private schools who can host many large groups and for stadiums id think places like Leichhardt oval and Concord could easily being organised. The tigers only play 4 games a year there and if you had to give West Harbour a couple of away games early in the SS season so be it.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Placid and Magnay situation has been discussed regularly in earlier posts but people coming in late are not expected to know that.
They won't go "straight into" the Aus U20 squad if you mean they just can just get onto the plane. They will have to attend the camp at Bond University as mentioned above, then appear in the final camp in Sydney..
If they don't have to it will be unprecedented; mind you, precedence with the new system is only one year old.
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The Placid and Magnay situation has been discussed regularly in earlier posts but people coming in late are not expected to know that.
They won't go "straight into" the Aus U20 squad if you mean they just can just get onto the plane. They will have to attend the camp at Bond University as mentioned above, then appear in the final camp in Sydney..
If they don't have to it will be unprecedented; mind you, precedence with the new system is only one year old.
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Agree that players in super rugby teams who are eligible should be very high priority but also agree they should spend some time in camp as often a few heroes parachuted in late can often cause big problems in a already cohesive unit.
I just realised that Aus 20 candidates will play NZ in trial game as part of their prep.Well done ARU or whomever.
Now that is progress for us souther hems. mobs to at least take that step.
I just realised that Aus 20 candidates will play NZ in trial game as part of their prep.Well done ARU or whomever.
Now that is progress for us souther hems. mobs to at least take that step.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
It's more than a trial game. That game is part of an official tournament which also involves Samoa and Japan, who are both involved in the World 20s. It is mentioned here:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/78092/
It was driven by the Aussies and Thompson has been after something like that since he took over the U20s. If you assumed that he was driving the bus I don't think you that you would be far off the mark.
As an official World Rugby tournament, World Rugby would be funding it, as they would be the nationals in Canberra to some extent (because they involve Fiji and Tonga who are not in the World 20s), but still, it is a good effort to get the thing going.
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Tahspark
Ted Thorn (20)
This official southern hemisphere tournament is desperately required to ensure that we don't fall further behind our northern brethren who have been coming into the junior RWC off the back of their own lead up tournament.
Thompson & co deserve much credit for the time & effort they put into the selection process & their heavy lifting to ensure that our preparation is vastly superior to what it was just a few years ago.
Thompson & co deserve much credit for the time & effort they put into the selection process & their heavy lifting to ensure that our preparation is vastly superior to what it was just a few years ago.
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