2014 IRB Junior World Championship – New Zealand

[Waratard]

Seems people are forgetting Dempsey was out for 9 weeks leading into the JWC, and that Argentina was his first hit out. They seem to be building him into the tournament, hopefully we see more of him, there is a lack of aggression out there

 

[Hugh Jarse]

And Fabian curved it up today in grade.

Only the Wicks @Dave Beat. Not as if it was a decent mob.

 

[The Raging Potato]

A
An excellent half back. I think the point if the question was to nominate a half back who didn't get an opportunity to be seen by the relevant selectors.

A
An excellent half back. I think the point if the question was to nominate a half back who didn't get an opportunity to be seen by the relevant selectors.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but a handful of minutes off the bench in each of the national competition games would suggest he does fit in that category.

 

[The Raging Potato]

And sorry for quoting you twice!

 

[Charlie Brown]

I don't think it's game time or a better selection process that is needed. We have the skills and drive to match it with England and SA. Where they do better is the physical and mental development of players from 16 years on. The English players are taken into professional club framework from 16 and given the type of physical development that now sees them bigger and stronger than Oz players at the same age. Yesterday's game reminded me if the game a couple of years ago where an English U18/19 side came here and did a job on our schoolboys and an Oz u19 side . The improvement from then to now by our boys is very promising but until we look at physical development and bringing them into some sort of professional framework from under 16 I don't think we will compete at this level.

The same for SA. It was said during the NZ v SA game that 19 of the squad of 30 came from the Bulls Academy. I bet those players have been there for more than 2 or 3 years

Totally agree with most of this comment!. I remember the English School boy side coming over here and dusting everyone. For memory there smallest player was the NO.9 and from memory he was close to 100kg.
We are doing much better this year with the selection process. Invitational only trials were a mistake. Yes there may still be some work to do, but there is improvement. Despite what happened yesterday I still believe the team is looking better then the last couple of years. Not necessary in raw talent for some but I think players are combining much better. I agree that we need to be assessing talent earlier and developing earlier in preparation for this competition and the NRC competition. The benefit will be seen down the track in the success of our Wallabies.
People seem very quick to judge on this forum. Yes Placid should have passed the ball out wide in yesterdays game and that his decision making at this point wasn't great, but to out right blame the poor kid for losing the comp is ridiculous. There are 23 players on this team. Not 1! Can you imagine if some of these boys jump onto this sight and this particular forum? I have personal contact with at least 2 of the boys on this side and I know personally that they jump on and read occasionally. What a confidence boost they would get. NOT. What would you think if you were a young kid and read some of this drivel? We need to keep it positive guys!!!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I haven't seen the incident yet. What I have seen of the game:
(a) placid was injured very early on and to my eyes should have come off. I was surprised that whatever his views or wishes they did not sub him - a failure of management?
(b) there were plenty of errors made by all to account for the teams position by games end so no one bloke is to blame and rarely is.
However, this is not a thread for boosters and blind loyalty to the cause: if these blokes (they are no longer kids) come on here then they have to take the good with bad - god knows there's a couple over there only too happy to take the good (what's with an Aussie u20 looking for the camera after making a contribution and making NFL style hand puppets to his adoring fans?)!
It's only one person's opinion - to which he or she is just as entitled as you are to yours.

 

[ld2b]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but a handful of minutes off the bench in each of the national competition games would suggest he does fit in that category.

But he was very involved, and playing really well, for the all the early trials right from the start of the U20s "sorting" process. Whilst the selectors made the choice not to take him through to the top squad, the point is that he got the chance to be seen and impress.

I believe HJ was asking for nominations of those standouts around the traps who didn't get pushed forward in the process and are currently out there as the potential game changers for the U20s.

 

[pstoe]

Who are these awesome players that have been overlooked?

Name a better halfback than Angus Pulver.

Suggestions that he is there because of Servo being the CEO is as insulting to the Coach and Selectors as it would be claiming that Cameron Clark is in the Sevens squad because his father is the head commentator for Fox.

By all accounts, the selection and trial process this year has been very thorough.

Plenty of kids without Aust Schoolboy Rockstar CV's have made it into the squad on their talent and application rather than reputation.

From NSW, FABIAN NATOLI at Manly for one . Played 1XV and 2XV for last two seasons consistently well yet dropped for Pulver who plays 2XV colts !

Re Clark, he has developed well but like most of these shoe ins it is about the visibility and Opportunities they get that other boys do not. Many boys are still being picked from schools based on connections rather than boys playing good footy at colts and grade levels. It is still going on believe me.

Bottom line is the results...and AUs looking at 7th place playoffs like last few years. Hats off to England, they chnaged their 'old farts' selection process in 1995 and their setup including their junior setup is flourishing. They have the inclination ($)and population, we have neither !

 

[Redmond]

From NSW, FABIAN NATOLI at Manly for one . Played 1XV and 2XV for last two seasons consistently well yet dropped for Pulver who plays 2XV colts !

Re Clark, he has developed well but like most of these shoe ins it is about the visibility and Opportunities they get that other boys do not. Many boys are still being picked from schools based on connections rather than boys playing good footy at colts and grade levels. It is still going on believe me.

Bottom line is the results.and AUs looking at 7th place playoffs like last few years. Hats off to England, they chnaged their 'old farts' selection process in 1995 and their setup including their junior setup is flourishing. They have the inclination ($)and population, we have neither !

Well said and agree 100%

 

[Dave Beat]

Only the Wicks @Dave Beat. Not as if it was a decent mob.

Wicks 2s have put a lot of teams to the sword this year though. And I think Pulver has reached 3rds in grade.

 

[Dave Beat]

From NSW, FABIAN NATOLI at Manly for one . Played 1XV and 2XV for last two seasons consistently well yet dropped for Pulver who plays 2XV colts !

That's Fabian playing 1st grade (not colts) in a competitive team, not colts or 3rd grade.

 

[Micheal]

From NSW, FABIAN NATOLI at Manly for one . Played 1XV and 2XV for last two seasons consistently well yet dropped for Pulver who plays 2XV colts !

Re Clark, he has developed well but like most of these shoe ins it is about the visibility and Opportunities they get that other boys do not. Many boys are still being picked from schools based on connections rather than boys playing good footy at colts and grade levels. It is still going on believe me.

You're completely right. Pulver's continued selection over Natoli is a farce and is entirely the product of Angus getting opportunities that Fabian has not had access to, despite being a clearly superior player.

This was evident in 2012 Schoolboys when after initial trials, Pulver was the Combined States halfback whereas Natoli was only given the lesser opportunity of being picked in the starting team for NSW 1sts. It is widely known that CS is a far superior platform for halves to be selected from, due to the dominance of their forwards, and as such Pulver was always a shoe in for the Australian Schoolboys and his selection there can only be seen as a result of being handed opportunities Fabian never had.

What a travesty, but lo and behold the injustice didn't stop there. Whilst both Natoli and Pulver were in the NSW u20s squad and shared the starting jersey during trials, somehow the NSW coaches decided that Angus would be a better option and rewarded him with the starting jersey for the national competition. Apparently it was for "better form" or some drivel like that, but I secretly think it's just because he's the CEO's son.

From there I personally thought Fabian would mesmerise the National selectors with his incredible form off the bench, but it turns out that even they thought Angus was the better option. The pricks must be blind or retarded.

It's obvious that Natoli's been robbed of the Australian u20s 9 jersey. If anyone can name one opportunity that Pulver's had that Natoli's also shared then I'll eat my hat. Until then, everyone join me taking up torches and pitchforks because I won't rest until this abomination of selection process is corrected.

...

Or maybe, just MAYBE, these three sets of independent selectors saw something in Pulver you lot didn't? Can anyone honestly say that they would have Natoli over Jake Gordon or Jock Merrimen as the starting halfback for Manly if those two were also at the club?

Pulver is a fine player, but he was the victim of the points system in Colts and now he's the victim of the embarrassment of riches that Sydney Uni has in regard to halfback options in its Grade setup.

Whilst I agree that the selection process for Aus u20s isn't perfect, this years been a marked improvement on previous years, and methinks that Pulver is simply an easy target for us to vent our frustrations through.

Sure we lost to England when a lot of us would have preferred for the boys in NZ to win, but they were a very strong team and theres no shame in losing to a better side. I hardly think that its fair that members of this forum place the responsibility for that result on individuals such as Placid or Pulver.

 

[Dave Beat]

You're completely right. Pulver's continued selection over Natoli is a farce and is entirely the product of Angus getting opportunities that Fabian has not had access to, despite being a clearly superior player.

This was evident in 2012 Schoolboys when after initial trials, Pulver was the Combined States halfback whereas Natoli was only given the lesser opportunity of being picked in the starting team for NSW 1sts. It is widely known that CS is a far superior platform for halves to be selected from, due to the dominance of their forwards, and as such Pulver was always a shoe in for the Australian Schoolboys and his selection there can only be seen as a result of being handed opportunities Fabian never had.

What a travesty, but lo and behold the injustice didn't stop there. Whilst both Natoli and Pulver were in the NSW u20s squad and shared the starting jersey during trials, somehow the NSW coaches decided that Angus would be a better option and rewarded him with the starting jersey for the national competition. Apparently it was for "better form" or some drivel like that, but I secretly think it's just because he's the CEO's son.

From there I personally thought Fabian would mesmerise the National selectors with his incredible form off the bench, but it turns out that even they thought Angus was the better option. The pricks must be blind or retarded.

It's obvious that Natoli's been robbed of the Australian u20s 9 jersey. If anyone can name one opportunity that Pulver's had that Natoli's also shared then I'll eat my hat. Until then, everyone join me taking up torches and pitchforks because I won't rest until this abomination of selection process is corrected.

.

Or maybe, just MAYBE, these three sets of independent selectors saw something in Pulver you lot didn't? Can anyone honestly say that they would have Natoli over Jake Gordon or Jock Merrimen as the starting halfback for Manly if those two were also at the club?

Pulver is a fine player, but he was the victim of the points system in Colts and now he's the victim of the embarrassment of riches that Sydney Uni has in regard to halfback options in its Grade setup.

Whilst I agree that the selection process for Aus u20s isn't perfect, this years been a marked improvement on previous years, and methinks that Pulver is simply an easy target for us to vent our frustrations through.

Sure we lost to England when a lot of us would have preferred for the boys in NZ to win, but they were a very strong team and theres no shame in losing to a better side. I hardly think that its fair that members of this forum place the responsibility for that result on individuals such as Placid or Pulver.

Not sure how anyone could disagree with your breakdown.
I saw Pulver play 3rds against Manly.
I saw Fabian play against Randwick yesterday.
The difference was enormous BUT rugby is a team sport and it is always hard to isolate and compare players in different games. Fabian carved them up yesterday, and pulled off some awesome tackles.

 

[en_force_er]

Additionally, I'd like to add that despite the U20s being a great experience and platform for exposure, when both men are 25 it will only be one of many reasons they are where they stand in the rugby world.

 

[Dave Beat]

Additionally, I'd like to add that despite the U20s being a great experience and platform for exposure, when both men are 25 it will only be one of many reasons they are where they stand in the rugby world.

Not so much the point I was trying to make, yesterday I read Kellaway should get a contract, and I'd like him to prove he could at least hold his own in first grade.
My concern is politics.

 

[Micheal]

Not sure how anyone could disagree with your breakdown.
I saw Pulver play 3rds against Manly.
I saw Fabian play against Randwick yesterday.
The difference was enormous BUT rugby is a team sport and it is always hard to isolate and compare players in different games. Fabian carved them up yesterday, and pulled off some awesome tackles.

I was being sarcastic, hopefully that came through haha. I personally think Pulver is the more complete player. Both he and Fabian are very physical halfbacks, but I think Fabian needs to work on certain aspects of his game, such as his pass. It's a shame that both couldn't be in the squad, but Powell deserved his selection, and sometimes a few players who probably deserve to be there as well miss out. If we took every u20 that has performed well in his respective sides over the last two years, we'd have about 100 players on tour. Such is life.

 

[Dave Beat]

I was being sarcastic, hopefully that came through haha. I personally think Pulver is the more complete player. Both he and Fabian are very physical halfbacks, but I think Fabian needs to work on certain aspects of his game, such as his pass. It's a shame that both couldn't be in the squad, but Powell deserved his selection, and sometimes a few players who probably deserve to be there as well miss out. If we took every u20 that has performed well in his respective sides over the last two years, we'd have about 100 players on tour. Such is life.

But Michael, you pleaded such a good case, gee i only referenced his game in third grade that i saw, and Fabian's most recent game and put a disclaimer in with regards to it being a team game and hard to isolate individuals when they are not playing against each other.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I don't think it's game time or a better selection process that is needed. We have the skills and drive to match it with England and SA. Where they do better is the physical and mental development of players from 16 years on. The English players are taken into professional club framework from 16 and given the type of physical development that now sees them bigger and stronger than Oz players at the same age. Yesterday's game reminded me if the game a couple of years ,ago where an English U18/19 side came here and did a job on our schoolboys and an Oz u19 side . The improvement from then to now by our boys is very promising but until we look at physical development and bringing them into some sort of professional framework from under 16 I don't think we will compete at this level.

The same for SA. It was said during the NZ v SA game that 19 of the squad of 30 came from the Bulls Academy. I bet those players have been there for more than 2 or 3 years

There are many Gaggerlanders who are rather critical of the NTS, NGS, Under 18 Development squads (or whatever the latest incarnation of the name is), the talent identification scheme that puts kids into those programmes at 15 and 16 years, and monitors them through the ARU Academy, Waratah Development Academy (or whatever the current terminology is).

Yet recent age group success from Poms and Welsh seems to validate such an approach.

Is our talent spotting so bad that we are putting the wrong kids into our programmes, or is it that we do not put enough kids into these elite development programmes?

 

[BabyBlueElephant]

Not sure if anyones mentioned this already but just came across the info that in 2013 NZ pulled out using any players who were contracted into Super rugby squads for the JWC squad. In 2014 they've extended this to ITM squads. It means more experience for their younger players. Means much less success at Junior level but a hell of a lot more experienced senior group of players.

 

[It is what it is]

Every now and then a special player comes along.
Kellaway is the standout amongst this group.
As Lee Grant says "he plays old".
The wraps are justified.
Watch him carefully, it's not just the try scoring, it's the composure, it's that split second hold of a pass, or shift in direction right on the advantage line, and the footwork.
I look forward to watch him excite us for many years to come.