• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

2012 Rugby Championship Game 1 Australia vs New Zealand - 18 August

Who will win 2012 Rugby Championship Game 1 between NZ and Australia?

  • The Men in Gold - The Wallabies

    Votes: 50 45.9%
  • The Darkness - The New Zealand Rugby Team

    Votes: 59 54.1%

  • Total voters
    109
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Richo

John Thornett (49)
Thoughts?

Fine for what it is. Betting odds and entertaining player descriptions. I'd rather read about what the tactics of each side might be and why, how each side could respond, etc. To my mind, that's why Scott Allen's stuff (and that of some others) here on G&GR is good.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I think the last few years have shown us that the last thing we want to be doing is defending a lead in the last 20. That's where we've lost a good half a dozen chances, having been in front.

Our last three wins have been "come from behind with 15mins to go", by launching a relentless attacking wave. The momentum of a game is rarely with you when defending, unless you have players who will tackle offensively, and make their hits on the AB side of the gainline, eg Fainga'a, Mortlock, McCabe, Grey.

If we've got a 10 point lead with 15 to go, I'll put my vital organs on it that we'll capitulate.

Heroically of course, and Deans will claim a moral victory, and that we're close!!

Huh?

The Suncorp Bledisloe we were up 20-3 at halftime and held on to win 25-20 (the ABs did pull it back to 20-all).

Aside from the Bledisloe Cup game in Hong Kong where we were up early but came from behind at the end, we generally need to be in front of the All Blacks to have a chance of winning.

They lose very few games but they lose even fewer when they get a good start. In fact, since the loss against France in the 2007 RWC, the Hong Kong Bledisloe is the only match they've lost after leading at half time.

I'd prefer to be playing from in front.
 

Lior

Herbert Moran (7)
So you're criticising Deans for changing the centre pairing because of injury but you're most critical of him retaining the one available centre who played the last three tests there. OK.

There are other available centres like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) for instance who has played there before. With Fainga'a for that matter. Yes Horne played the last three tests, but he was bloody useless. I don't think we should be picking players because they played the last three tests in a below average way. Call me crazy but there were better players available to be picked and Deans didn't pick them.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can cover both centre positions if need be and Drew can cover his wing spot. Also Barnes can play 12 with Beale at 10, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to 15 and Drew to the wing. He has a contingency plan to the extent that any coach with a 5/2 bench split could cover back injuries.



I don't think starting two fetchers in any test would be smart. Some nations don't even play 1 traditional fetcher in thier test sides. These days you need plenty of lineout options in the forwards and that usually means that two of the loosies are lineout options.



I don't even think the AB's themselves would think they are going to thrash us. Smart money would back an AB win but I don't think it would be to much of an upset if we get up for this one.


If that's a contingency plan, then it ain't a very good one. It ignores the realities of injuries galore. What happens when Rob Horne leaves the field injured, and one of the backs isn't firing. He has picked a mediocre backline, the last thing you want is having limited options. Deans has provided the Wallabies with limited options.

Is Dennis a line out jumper? I think two fetchers against the AB's is exactly what we need. The AB's will be targeting Pocock all day and all night and will do anything to take him out of the game. They have proven themselves very good at countering Pocock in the past.

I think it is a safe bet to assume the Wallabies will lose convincingly. Most probably think the same. I will gladly be proven wrong, and certainly hope to be proven wrong. But the reality is the Wallabies team which Robbie Deans has picked is shit the All Blacks however have picked an extraordinarily capable team full of World Cup winners.
 
R

RuckinGoodStats

Guest
Brief overview because some people will be saying the June numbers mean nothing. Well actually the do mean something, so lets have a look. No charts cause I’m not sure they are that useful at this stage. If a team start dominating, or losing, then it is a bit more attractive. You can call me lazy, but also call me free...

Both teams like to have a lot of possession and territory, both over 50%.In Australia’s case they enjoy more than 55% possession and territory. This transfers into time spend inside the oppositions 22, where the Wallabies averaged over 20% in the June Tests and the All Blacks just under 20%.

Despite the results, both teams in 2012 both teams are conceding few tries. The Wallabies an average or 1.0 and the All Blacks 0.7. When the Wallabies do concede a try they are 3 times more likely to concede a try on the LEFT side of the field. Don’t disregard this stat because if you remember Ireland were more likely to concede on the RIGHT to the same amount and Savea ran in 3 tries (Ireland’s RIGHT is NZ left a.k.a. Savea’s wing). What I think is a little more telling is that the southern hemisphere average is 2.5 tries conceded per game.

The All Blacks did opt to kick for goal from penalties only 38.5% of the time because they were too busy scoring tries. They also didn’t give Ireland that much opportunity to kick them either, only 18.5% of the time.

The quality of the opposition might be why the All Blacks were breaking 1 in every 5.1 tackle attempts by Ireland; and the Wallabies breaking 1 in 8.8 against Wales and Scotland. In missing tackles the Wallabies missed 1 in 6.9 tackle attempts and the All Blacks 1 in 11.1 attempts.

In the June test the All Blacks were on averaging twice as many offloads per game than the Wallabies.

Maybe it was a Northern hemisphere v Southern hemisphere thing, but both teams made a tactical kick from the hand every 53-55 seconds yet received one every 41-42 seconds. Scarily close numbers

The Wallabies, despite their fetchers, only managed to turnover (steal) 2.4% of the defensive rucks. The All Blacks were a lot better turning over/stealing with 4.4%. Wallabies lost 2.0% of their rucks to a steals compared to the All Blacks who lost 3.1%.

When looking at internationals being better when it comes to making fewer errors, the stats show this. The Wallabies were making 15.3 lost possessions/turnovers per game. That’s pretty good and better than the Kiwi’s 18.7. Both however are better than the southern hemisphere average of 19.1. Taking the amount of possession means Australia are making on every 83 seconds to New Zealand’s 63 seconds. Could be the difference.

It seems the All Blacks are making a too many handling errors, one every 122 seconds in possession, this is pretty bad. Its a concern because if a team gets a case of the droppsies it tends to go all season, especially in pressure games (go ask the Reds). As a comparison in SuperRugby the Hurricanes were the worse for handling errors, every 103 seconds followed by Lions with 131 seconds. Get my point?

Nothing in the penalty counts for both teams.

Think kick offs could be interesting contest. The Wallabies are yet to reclaim a kick off, restart or 22 drop out. The All Blacks are reclaiming 27.8% of them.

The stats suggests the All Blacks will really target the Wallabies at set piece. In the June tests the Wallabies lost 9.4% of their lineout throws in the air. The All Blacks are yet to lose a lineout, either in the air or through infringement in 2012. The Wallabies stole 10.4% of the opposition's lineouts in the air, the All Blacks 6.7%.

The Wallabies tend to throw to the middle, so do the All Blacks, but throw a lot to the back.

I read somewhere that the Wallabies are not getting the benefit of the doubt at the scrums and the stats kinda back that up. The Wallabies are conceding an infringements in 33.9% of the scrums set in the June tests. That is a massive. In SuperRugby the Bulls were the worse scrum infringers (is that a word) with 17.1% of scrums in the Bulls games, the Bulls conceded an infringement, so almost double that.
 

BDA

Jim Lenehan (48)
Interesting reading material, although im sure what to make of a lot of those stats...other than the obvious fact that our scrum is a penalty magnet.
 

hammertimethere

Trevor Allan (34)
To me it is clear that the balance of the selection is out in this case. The relative merits of both players.

Moore appears the fitter (at least he doesn't go down as much)
Moore works tighter in the ruck
Moore has a better lineout throw

TPN is a better runner, particularly with a little space
TPN has better offloading skills
TPN can pull off big tackles

Looking at the above, I would think it is pretty clear which player should start and which should be kept as an impact player off the bench. The only reason I would have to pick TPN as a starter is a negative one - and that is if his throwing goes off you can always hook him for Moore.

Scotty I would add to that (and all the subsequent posts on the topic that I've read), that I keep thinking back to the game in brisbane where the team was probably not the first choice in every position (ant's first go at 13, pat's 3rd or 4th go at 12, selection of alexander etc.) but they did display 2 things that the AB's generally display quite consistently.
1. They were completely manic in their physical confrontation, they were fired up and wanted to play fast and hard.
2. That energy was directed squarely at the AB's ruck whether we were defending or attacking (our clean out and counter ruck was efficient and/or well timed and done in numbers.)

I feel that while Taf is wonderfully capable of cutting big fast (south african?) forward runners off at the knees and making the odd big hit/charge and offload in mid field, Moore (and probably simmons over timani which is a rather parallel argument in Horwill's absence) is more capable of reproducing that display of aggression and technique where it counts, the breakdown. This is how you get at the rookie halfback/disrupt the AB's fast ball plays and patterns/win in the possession stakes and all sorts of other good things.

This type of thinking should also be applied to the team as a whole. I think the balance of workmanlike and explosive is off. If you take this week's AB's as an example, their forward pack (except possibly Messam) could be very (VERY) generally described as tough, fit, technically excellent players with a work rate you could deposit in the bank weekly. Their backline on the other hand could be described as explosive big play sorts of players (Cory Jane a possible exception).
The wallabies seem to have gone the other way with a forward pack brimming with size, speed and some remarkable individual skills (barring Sharpe and Dennis) and a backline composed of safety first options who try really hard but really turn a game on its head.

If this is deliberate and measured, i.e we plan to roll around the corner and try to punch through with higgers, timani, taf and their skills then fair enough be prepared to be judged by the result, but if it's not perhaps there should be a re-evaluation
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
That Pocock isn't a "destructive" ball runner is a complete myth - in the RWC he was THE Wobs fwds ball runner and has been key since.

This is correct, without Palu and TPN, Pocock was used to hit it up on 1st phase - usually your most effective and secure carrier.
 

Lior

Herbert Moran (7)
All I can say is that I'm glad you're not selecting the team.

Right back-at-cha!

Because, I wouldn't have picked Horne. You would have.

I wouldn't have picked Timani. You I think would have.

God I miss Cliffy Palu, his running skills are exactly what is needed.
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
Lior - barring one glaring mistake in stuffing up a try, what did Rob Horne do against wales that makes you think he was hopeless?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Right back-at-cha!

Because, I wouldn't have picked Horne. You would have.

I wouldn't have picked Timani. You I think would have.

God I miss Cliffy Palu, his running skills are exactly what is needed.

I would have picked Horne. He had a pretty good series against Wales. Scored two tries and didn't miss a tackle.

I wouldn't have picked Timani. I would have picked Douglas, Sharpe and Simmons as the three locks. I don't get the outrage over Timani though. Simmons has hardly proven himself to be a consistent performer for the Wallabies and he has played 20 tests.
 

Scoey

Tony Shaw (54)
If that's a contingency plan, then it ain't a very good one. It ignores the realities of injuries galore.

A 5/2 bench will do that. It's not the selections that are the drama here. If you have more injuries to backs then you do replacements then you're in trouble regardless. You could also criticise Deans for only having one halfback on the bench. What if Genia gets injured and then so does Phipps?

Is Dennis a line out jumper? I think two fetchers against the AB's is exactly what we need.

Yep Dennis can jump in the lineout, and with Timani in there at lock we will be going to Sharpe, Higgers and Dennis in the lineout. You put Gill or Hooper on there and we're down to two lineout options. Mark Loane said once, you win the lineout and you go a long way to winning the game. Over empahsis on break down at the expense of the lineout would be a disaster. Our growing affection toward having fetchers everywhere is worrying.

I think it is a safe bet to assume the Wallabies will lose convincingly. Most probably think the same... The reality is the Wallabies team which Robbie Deans has picked is shit the All Blacks however have picked an extraordinarily capable team full of World Cup winners

You obviously have your house on it then? It's certainly no safe bet that the Wallabies will lose convincingly. As for the Wallabies being shit? It's not reality, it's your opinion. Clearly we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
 

Hairy Test Eagle

Ward Prentice (10)
Right back-at-cha!

Because, I wouldn't have picked Horne. You would have.

I wouldn't have picked Timani. You I think would have.

God I miss Cliffy Palu, his running skills are exactly what is needed.
Lior, Cliffy Palu is one of the most overrated players in International Rugby. Sure he's not bad at provincial level, but when it comes to an international game as soon as he's put on his backside you won't see him for the rest of the game. His selection in the team would just add to the already poor 'Waretards'.
 

GaffaCHinO

Peter Sullivan (51)
I would have picked Horne. He had a pretty good series against Wales. Scored two tries and didn't miss a tackle.

I wouldn't have picked Timani. I would have picked Douglas, Sharpe and Simmons as the three locks. I don't get the outrage over Timani though. Simmons has hardly proven himself to be a consistent performer for the Wallabies and he has played 20 tests.

Yes but Simmons wears a Red shirt compared to Timani's Blue one. There's your answer as to why all the man love for simmons.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top