2012 Rugby Championship Game 1 Australia vs New Zealand - 18 August

[Joe Mac]

Enjoyed the post although I disagree strongly with TPN. His impact invariably is negative.

I don't think there is any weak link in the Wallaby hooking department. With TPN and Moore I would actually say this is one of the few areas of our team where we are stronger than the AB's. To say that TPN is a weakness that could lose us the game is bonkers.

 

[tooms]

I don't think there is any weak link in the Wallaby hooking department. With TPN and Moore I would actually say this is one of the few areas of our team where we are stronger than the AB's. To say that TPN is a weakness that could lose us the game is bonkers.

TPN can't throw into a L/O ... There used to be a time where you picked your hooker on how he throws into a L/O ... Having said that, TPN is very effective across the park.

 

[Scotty]

I don't think there is any weak link in the Wallaby hooking department. With TPN and Moore I would actually say this is one of the few areas of our team where we are stronger than the AB's. To say that TPN is a weakness that could lose us the game is bonkers.

To me it is clear that the balance of the selection is out in this case. The relative merits of both players.

Moore appears the fitter (at least he doesn't go down as much)
Moore works tighter in the ruck
Moore has a better lineout throw

TPN is a better runner, particularly with a little space
TPN has better offloading skills
TPN can pull off big tackles

Looking at the above, I would think it is pretty clear which player should start and which should be kept as an impact player off the bench. The only reason I would have to pick TPN as a starter is a negative one - and that is if his throwing goes off you can always hook him for Moore.

 

[Braveheart81]

Maybe they think the scrum will be more solid to begin with by starting the Tahs front row?

Maybe the plan is for TPN to go hell for leather in the first half knowing that he'll get replaced at half-time or early in the second half?

If you get behind the All Blacks it is very hard to come back. The thinking could be that TPN is of more use providing impact early in the game to hopefully start the Wallabies off on the front foot.

If you look at the Suncorp Bledisloe from last year, the Wallabies were ferocious early in the game which set us up to win the match. Vickerman smashing the crap out of Keiran Read forcing him to be replaced was notable.

 

[fatprop]

TPN can't throw into a L/O . There used to be a time where you picked your hooker on how he throws into a L/O . Having said that, TPN is very effective across the park.

Can't throw? meh, he isn't as good as Moore, but he ain't a weakness.

In the end we are arguing over 10 minutes of game time and I would be happy with either

 

[BDA]

I actually have no problem with TPN starting on Saturday. He made a noticeable impact in the first 30 minutes of all three games against Wales. Big tackles, a good work rate and made quite a few hit ups, generally getting over the advantage line.

If the Wallabies are to stand a chance on the weekend we need to muscle up in the first 20 minutes (ala Suncorp last year). TPN gives us more physicality than Moore so I think he’s well suited to the first half. With that said when the game gets serious in the final quarter I want a guy like Moore on the field, easily the more reliable player. If we are going to win this game, we’ll need composure and accuracy in the final 20 minutes. Moore’s our man.

My big problem with Deans start TPN is more a criticism of Deans. TPN appears to fade badly throughout the game. During the Welsh series, he looked ready to come off after 50 minutes, yet deans kept him out there for too long. With a guy as quality as Moore sitting on the bench, he should play no less than 30 minutes. I wouldn't mind seeing TPN and Moore play the First and Second half respectively

 

[Braveheart81]

Particularly as you can bring back on your hooker after they've been replaced if there is an injury, I see no reason why we don't just swap them at half time.

At the most, I would leave TPN on for 50 minutes. That way you tell him at half time that he's got 10 minutes left and he needs to give it everything.

 

[chasmac]

I agree with Scotty. I'd start with Moore.

 

[chasmac]

Interesting article from Paul Cully on SMH.
Highlights a tactic of trying to isolate Nonu in defense. See if he is making the right decisions.

 

[Joe Mac]

To me it is clear that the balance of the selection is out in this case. The relative merits of both players.

Moore appears the fitter (at least he doesn't go down as much)
Moore works tighter in the ruck
Moore has a better lineout throw

TPN is a better runner, particularly with a little space
TPN has better offloading skills
TPN can pull off big tackles

Looking at the above, I would think it is pretty clear which player should start and which should be kept as an impact player off the bench. The only reason I would have to pick TPN as a starter is a negative one - and that is if his throwing goes off you can always hook him for Moore.

I agree with all you have said Scotty. Im not trying to say TPN is better than Moore. What I am trying to say is they are both excellent players and that the combination of the two is probably one of the best hooking combo's in the world. It is certainly not an area where the AB's have a glaring advantage, as some people on this forum are touting.

I also think Deans (for once in his tenure) has it right starting TPN. Ego's aside about the starting hooker, having your best thrower on in the dying moments of tight games is key. TPN is also more prone to injuries and it would hurt our chances if Moore played himself into the ground for the first 50, only to be brought back on for the last 15 with TPN coming off second best from a torpedo tackle... Start TPN and let Moore close out the game...

 

[BPC]

I think Pocock is a better fetcher/ turnover exponent, but is inferior in link play/destructive defence/ and ball runner.

Given his penchant for rolling onto the worng side of the ruck 'accidently' and interfering with the halfback, I believe you mean "obstructive defence".

Otherwise, I agree. It is a bit hard to say one is better than the other when they play such different styles, but logic has never stopped a good argument.

 

[Jiggles]

TPN is a better runner, particularly with a little space

I disagree with this assumption. Looking at TPNs stats from the Super season and Wales tests, he rarely makes his runs in tight, i.e. pick and drives. He only made 1 tight run in the first 9 games of the season, which was in game 1 against the Reds, if memory serves me correctly. Moore does this much better and does this consistently.

TPN is much more dynamic in the mid-field where he can get his wheels turning. If you could stretch him out a couple of inches he would be the perfect loose forward.

 

[ACR]

There is no stopping genia or smith if they are playing behind a dominant pack. Stop the pack and you stop the half.

Whoever gels and hunts best as a pack will win this. If they are even then I expect the ABs greater firepower to get them home.

Hmmm. I still think you can get at the half back. When the Chiefs played the Highlanders in Dunedin (2nd time around), Kerr-Barlow, serial bloody pest that he is, came through and round the rucks, round the back of scrums (almost always offside) and charged at Smith all game. Smith had a shocker, he's not always pick up and bullet, he hesitates at times as well. The forward battle was not really won by anyone but was messy (as is the highlander way). I don't think this is part of Genia's style though is it really? To charge the opposing half. The AB's will probably do a better job of protection anyway. As always, it will be interesting to see the ref's interpretation on the fringes of rucks.

Smith is certainly still capable of an off day, maybe rely on that.

 

[teach]

Don't write the Wallabies off yet. they could sneak away with it. Despite the euphoria being encouraged by some media outlets, cooler heads are talking up the wallabies strengths.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...-great-expectations-play-into-Wallabies-hands

OPINION: On a bitterly cold Christchurch night in June, squat Irish loose-head prop Cian Healy pushed, the vaunted right side of the All Blacks' scrum wobbled and eyebrows in two hemispheres were raised. In the tight exchanges, Richie McCaw repeatedly carried the ball into a green wall of angry men, all elbows and wild glares, and he kept spilling it.
In the week leading into that game, the script - a document that sport regularly discredits - had declared Ireland were destined for a sizeable loss. It was motivational fuel for the visitors and should be for the Wallabies. If they are prepared mentally - and they will be - tomorrow night will be significantly more interesting than supposed.
The talk out of New Zealand this week has been of an imposing victory and the Wallabies' multiple weaknesses. It has not come from the All Blacks, and their coaching group must worry about the impact of this flattery. It is a challenge to manufacture that hard edge when you are sitting on top of the world and everyone is declaring that your soles are exquisite.
Will other things have to go the Wallabies' way? Of course. This is a wonderful All Blacks team. They destroyed a deflated Ireland 60-0 the week after Christchurch. They are the best team in the world today and they will be on Sunday, regardless of the result. And there are two main areas where the Wallabies will have to improve exponentially from their own clashes in the June series.
Five years after the humiliation of Marseille, it is an embarrassment for Australian rugby to still be talking about the scrum, but it is inescapable when you digest the following statistic. Of all scrums in the Wales series, 34 per cent of them ended in a Wallabies infringement, either a free kick or a penalty. If that is repeated, the All Blacks will bury them. Benn Robinson, inferior to other props around the park, has not played a bigger game for years.
Second, New Zealand recovered 27.8 per cent of their restarts/22-metre drop-outs against Ireland, compared with none for Australia against Wales. These ruckingoodstats.com numbers do not tell the entire story - Adam Ashley-Cooper's excellent work in the third Test against Wales a contributing factor to the knock-ons by the Welsh catchers - but the imbalance remains. And yet it is a matter of simple training-ground repetition.
But there are Wallabies' strengths to play to if these two pieces of the jigsaw are clicked into place.
Kurtley Beale, under the radar all week, resumes in the No.15 jersey to tussle with Israel Dagg for the crown of world's best, after missing the World Cup semi-final. Dave Dennis is a better option at blindside than the version of Rocky Elsom fielded that day. Scott Higginbotham has form and a scrum-base understanding with Will Genia. Nathan Sharpe, unluckily omitted in the 20-6 loss, is the shrewdest lineout operator in Australia and will contest the lineout money ball to Kieran Read when the New Zealanders try to set up the Luke Romano crash ball in midfield.
And all of them will have the security of a five-eighth who plays sympathetically to his forward pack, pushing the ball to the corners with his kicking game. Quade Cooper's supporters will correctly argue the Wallabies have sacrificed some flair with Berrick Barnes. They have also avoided some instability. This is Test rugby. Morne Steyn has a better winning percentage against the All Blacks - and from more games - than the Reds' five-eighth.


There are also some flashes of exposed heel flesh in the All Blacks.
Genia's favourite and most accurate kick - towards, or over, the opposition left winger - is well suited to test the weakest part of Hosea Gear's game. Jerome Kaino is no longer present to lean his shoulders into Wallabies tacklers, or haul back Digby Ioane on his way to the try line. Aaron Smith, a Bledisloe rookie, was hustled out of his game in Super Rugby by the intrusive breakdown work of the Chiefs and Crusaders.
Also, hot blood runs through the All Blacks midfield. Sonny Bill Williams still hasn't shaken the habit of dropping the shoulder into the ball carrier - he did it again in the Super Rugby final, against Pat Lambie. His partner, Ma'a Nonu, has matured but does not have the circumspection of a Conrad Smith. Prematch comments have focused on how he will devour his opposite, Rob Horne, but they slightly miss the point. The Wallabies will send several runners into his channel and force him to make sound defensive decisions.
For days, questions have been asked of the Wallabies. They are about to submit some of their own.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

What i like about moore is that his pick and drives are very good. As a rule he usually manages to get that extra yard than the average bear......when fit and firing i think he would be close to the best hooker in the world. Maybe onyl overshawdowed by a fit Bismark Du Plessis; who by the way i think must be carrying some type of debilitating injury as he hasnt seemed as explosive this year & really seemed to be wrapped in cotton wool by the sharks

 

[Scotty]

I agree with all you have said Scotty. Im not trying to say TPN is better than Moore. What I am trying to say is they are both excellent players and that the combination of the two is probably one of the best hooking combo's in the world. It is certainly not an area where the AB's have a glaring advantage, as some people on this forum are touting.

I also think Deans (for once in his tenure) has it right starting TPN. Ego's aside about the starting hooker, having your best thrower on in the dying moments of tight games is key. TPN is also more prone to injuries and it would hurt our chances if Moore played himself into the ground for the first 50, only to be brought back on for the last 15 with TPN coming off second best from a torpedo tackle. Start TPN and let Moore close out the game.

Yes, so the decision to run with TPN first could well be for negative reasons (ie because his fitness or core hooker skills aren't as good as Moores?).

I don't subscribe to the more physicality reason of others. Moore is more than physical enough, and arguably plays tighter. TPN's impact and skills would be much more effective against tiring opposition players.

 

[Braveheart81]

Yes, so the decision to run with TPN first could well be for negative reasons (ie because his fitness or core hooker skills aren't as good as Moores?).

I don't subscribe to the more physicality reason of others. Moore is more than physical enough, and arguably plays tighter. TPN's impact and skills would be much more effective against tiring opposition players.

You've chosen to go with the negative line because you disagree with the selection.

Maybe the selectors have gone with the more physicality line as the reason for starting him because they see him as being a more aggressive and physical player than Moore.

 

[Scoey]

Could the plan be something like this: Tatafu to go beserk for 50 mins and then bring Moore on with 30 to go. Shortly after bring Hooper on to play blindside (or Hooper to 7 and Pocock to 6) and essentially have 3 fetchers in Pocock, Hooper and Moore for the last 20 or so minutes?

 

[chasmac]

Maybe the selectors have gone with the more physicality line as the reason for starting him because they see him as being a more aggressive and physical player than Moore.

The last game v's the kiwi's was lost through simple mistakes.
QC (Quade Cooper) kicked off - out on the full. Nonu scores try 4-5 phases later.
I prefer Moore as he makes fewer lineout mistakes and we lose very little elsewhere.

 

[cyclopath]

The focus on the Moore / TPN conundrum is odd to me. Both are very good hookers, and I doubt we get hamstrung one way or the other with regard to who starts.
As for TPN's throwing - in the past it has been at times awful. This year, I think it has been much better. Long throws remain the major potential frailty, as they are with many hookers. His throwing worries me far less than his lack of self-preservation, which is far more likely to leave us in a hole.
Our big issues are at lock (overall, with Horwill out) and midfield (with respect to versatile attack, not defence so much). McCabe, Horne, Fainga'a are all solid players, but we really need someone to come to the fore as a more creative force in 12 and or 13 pretty soon.
Tapuai is my bet for that man longer term. Then we can "carry" a blunter weapon like one of the above 3 far more easily, all of whom have their merits.