2011 Super 15 Draw

[PaarlBok]

Blue, I don't remember you ever being so vocal against the S15 expansion before, you surely knew what the format was going to be?

Paarl has always been against it, but you seem to have changed your opinion?

You see even our fattie not liking this new S15 format. Reality is striking them now and myself saw this one coming from a long way and know whats going to happen next.

Would love your lot to try and play with the Kiwis, not sure if they wants you tho and without SA you'd be pretty much money fucked. Thats the golden goose in the partnership.

 

[PaarlBok]

I don't understand how NZ and SA won't gain anything in the new format. Less travel, more chances to pit contenders vying for Test spots against each other, probably more ca-ching too.

That said, I'm all ears to the counter arguments as to why this will harm NZ and SA rugby. Hit me.

Konte are you the same as Fonzie on TSF?

 

[Blue]

Bob sums it up well.

http://www.supersport.com/rugby/blogs/bob-skinstad/Not_so_Super_15

Not so Super 15

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by Bob Skinstad 16/09/2010, 19:19
Is there too much bloat to render the new look Super 15 something to look forward to?

I like big name, intra country, intense, derbies, they show the best players in their prime, battling for contention and position, in the age old rivalries that we have grown accustomed to - often they are just before tours and selections too, adding a sense of bite to the occasion, with bragging rights and national colours up for grabs.

I write all this because I think that is what the new Super Rugby (terrible logo) format is trying to use as a showpiece to start the tournament, and I praise the organisers for that, but then where does it head ? Down the veritible rabbit hole of quasi qualifying, match up murdering mince meat in the middle.

I still can't work out whether the pseudo quarter finals are a boon or a balls up, as they might be teams from the same country, re-hashing what happened early on and stopping the possibility of the winners having to play all the good, in form teams or their vanquishers. It does seem a bit odd.

My other worry is that of the domestic competitions. For example, if we see the Cheetahs play the Sharks in the not so super new Super 15, possibly twice, why does that help in any way the jersey changed, same team match up that we were waiting for during our currently already exciting domestic match up filled, Currie Cup ? Have we not just given away all the home derby value to a tournament that needs our traditional rivalries to keep it alive and in so doing , thrown the baby out with the proverbial bath water ?

Where do we ( SARU ) negotiate from here ?

I think we should have kept our fantastic domestic Currie Cup - thrown out the Vodacom competition, and played like the H Cup in Europe - a game every fortnight or month or so, that was Super 15 only. Allow the local teams to keep building their squads, and pedigrees, match them up against each other domestically mostly, and only again through qualification where possible - and then lead up toward a grand finale, at the end of the domestic season, a la H Cup that sees the finals played within the same months, so that teams can keep their squads to defend their national club championships as well as the international ones.

This way - all we as South Africans have done, with the lions share of interest that we had, is give those prize matches away and lose focus on the Currie Cup, which is what made us great anyway, now the teams will play their stars for the Sanzar comps ( Super and tri/quad nations), then rest their stars, on insistence from SA rugby, for the Currie Cup - before playing an under strength team on the end of year tour - it seems to me that it all starts with a bang and ends with a whimper.
DID I mention that the global season of football has helped them (FIFA/UEFA) garner the biggest ever audience growth figures of the sport over the last few domestic and international seasons, hmmm, when do they play Champions League football again, oh during the domestic season off weekends/fixtures you say, and end it all with a grand finale ? One global season ? What a good idea !

 

[inthestands]

Apparently the Tahs pushed for Sunday and were knocked back by broadcasters. At a glance (correct me if I'm wrong), the Tahs have seven Saturday games, and in four of those they are the only game in Oz on that day. The other three are back-to-back with Force matches, which would have meant no prime-time Saturday match into Oz.

My concern is the finals. In theory, a team finishing 11th can not only make the finals, but host one! I know that probably won't happen and that in all likelihood the top six teams will be in the finals, however I still think the finals seedings should be ranked purely on competition points and not on the conference finish.

In saying that, you don't play everyone in the NFL and your finals opponents are determined by your divisional finish, not your overall record compared to other conference teams. It seems to work well for them and there's never any 'but X never played Y' arguments. I guess we're apprehensive because it's new to us.

 

[PaarlBok]

Apparently the Tahs pushed for Sunday and were knocked back by broadcasters. At a glance (correct me if I'm wrong), the Tahs have seven Saturday games, and in four of those they are the only game in Oz on that day. The other three are back-to-back with Force matches, which would have meant no prime-time Saturday match into Oz.

My concern is the finals. In theory, a team finishing 11th can not only make the finals, but host one! I know that probably won't happen and that in all likelihood the top six teams will be in the finals, however I still think the finals seedings should be ranked purely on competition points and not on the conference finish.
In saying that, you don't play everyone in the NFL and your finals opponents are determined by your divisional finish, not your overall record compared to other conference teams. It seems to work well for them and there's never any 'but X never played Y' arguments. I guess we're apprehensive because it's new to us.

Make no sense, how do you want to give the top 6 the go ahead when they play totally different teams in the same competition?

The two top teams in each conferense should qualify for the top 6. Myself would rather have seen a quater/semi/final business end. No matter if its 8 out of 15 involve in the business end, could not care about that. The team at the top should have home advantage anyway. The other option is to bring in the vokken Kings and cut the teams in two and play home and away with the quater/semi/final to decide the winner.

 

[Lance Free]

Thats the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Agree I'd like to see one test per opponent in the 4 Nations to keep us hungry.

Get the feeling they try and tapped this untill it breaks. Same with the S15.

I would agree with you there Paarl to some extent. The Home Unions/France/Italy play only one game in the Six Nations against each but because we'll be only four I'd reckon a home and away series is the way to go. No more than two games each (6 altogether) otherwise it just becomes ho hum. As for the Argies, it's always difficult winning on their home turf if they have all their international players available - it should be competitive.

Four tests against the ABs for us at present is just crap. How the hell we'd be expected to win the Bledisloe under those circumstances is beyond me - we all know its a financial decision.

I never seriously thought that SA would go the European route. I don't think it would do much for your rugby as you'd dominate the competition. We're currently playing (amongst ourselves) the top three in the world annually which certainly gives us a leg up.

As for Super Rugby next year I understand where NZ and SA are coming from. CC and ITM Cup are the bread and butter of domestic competition in both countries. However, for Australia it suits our purpose in adding another professional team. Without an equivalent there's just nowhere for us to go. And I think evening up the comp with 5 teams each is probably fair.

I've been to both ITM (NPC & Ranfurly Shield) and CC matches in both countries. Those was the days before Super 10, 12, 14 etc. It meant everything then. But times change and although CC is still very popular, ITM is waning and in financial difficulty, hence the changes next year. ITM and CC should be absolutely supported by their respective national unions as it gives you guys an advantage and there's so much history to it.

For me, another Super team for Oz and the Argies in SANZAR will be fantastic. Can't wait. Best thing to happen since....the ARC!

 

[Blue]

Lance:

I can't see SA ever go the NH route because a) the complexity of fitting them in and b) as you say the 3N teams need each other to keep strong. Unfortunately SA still negotiates like the toddler throwing its toys all the time but for now it seems as if the other two tolerate it.

I have no idea as to the health of CC rugby (financially) bur from the games I have seen delayed her in Aus (and I watch the two games we get each week), the rugby itself is in rude health.

This is a real challenge for SA. The Super 15 lolly spoke loud. Now they have to make sense of it.

 

[DPK]

Konte are you the same as Fonzie on TSF?

Nope. I'm DPK on TSF, although I rarely post.

 

[Langthorne]

It is a shame all teams won't play eachother at least once. We can all see this is an issue, and look at the way everyone is saying "ooh, we missed playing so and so" etc. Rubbish.

The 4N should be a home and away affair (6 games each).

As with the Bledisloe Cup, where there are additional games between Oz and NZ which don't count towards the Tri Nations, the Australian Super Teams could play once as part of the Super comp and then again in non Super matches to complete their home and away matches for the (yet to be named) Australian Super Dooper Rugby Campionship (in time additional teams could be added, or additional matches, or a finals series, but a home and away series is probably enough). Using this format the CC and NPC could go on more or less as it does now and the Aussie teams would get those much prized extra domestic matches.

Anyway, more matches is a good thing, another Aussie team is a good thing. The 1st in the conference system sucks - either the top two from each conference or a simple top 6 based on the 'every teams plays all the others once' format.

 

[Blue]

Blue, I don't remember you ever being so vocal against the S15 expansion before, you surely knew what the format was going to be?

Paarl has always been against it, but you seem to have changed your opinion?

I was sort of fence sitting when the haggling was going on. Partly because we didn't really understand what the schedule would look like and I could see the value for rugby here in Aus (and I have a very definite vested interest in rugby being succesful here in Aus because I live here).

Now what I see the schedule and underatand the (genuine) implications for SA's Currie Cup and all the structures that feed it, I get worried.

Look I think there is going to be a way to make things work, but watching the great footy dished up in the Currie Cup so far this year I do worry about it's future. I guess it remidns me of what a great comp it is and I grew up with it after all.

And I worry that in a couple of years the Super season will struggle to get started because of a seeminlgy endless series of derbies (and more and more and more derbies).

 

[Hawko]

This thread started out by being about the draw and has morphed into a hate session for the S15 concept. If I've got to get over the loss in Sydney, surely others have to get over the S15 concept. That was fixed months ago.

 

[en_force_er]

This thread started out by being about the draw and has morphed into a hate session for the S15 concept. If I've got to get over the loss in Sydney, surely others have to get over the S15 concept. That was fixed months ago.

There's no harm in letting a conversation evolve naturally.

 

[Lee Grant]

There's no harm in letting a conversation evolve naturally.

Nothing wrong with digression.

Talking of evolving I wonder how Darwin will go as Melbourne scrum coach.

 

[Blue]

This thread started out by being about the draw and has morphed into a hate session for the S15 concept. If I've got to get over the loss in Sydney, surely others have to get over the S15 concept. That was fixed months ago.

What was fixed?

Therein lies the problem...

 

[Slim 293]

From an Australian viewpoint this new competition is excellent...

From NZ and SA... it's crap, but they've agreed to this so fuck 'em...

They could've taken a stance and maybe forced Australia to rethink a proper third tier national competition instead of our players being wasted in an amateur Sydney competition featuring the might of Norths, North Easts, North Wests, Inner North, North of North, slightly south of North etc. playing in a round robin to see who takes on Sydney Uni in the finals...

 

[Blue]

From an Australian viewpoint this new competition is excellent...

From NZ and SA... it's crap, but they've agreed to this so fuck 'em...

They could've taken a stance and maybe forced Australia to rethink a proper third tier national competition instead of our players being wasted in an amateur Sydney competition featuring the might of Norths, North Easts, North Wests, Inner North, North of North, slightly south of North etc. playing in a round robin to see who takes on Sydney Uni in the finals...

They did take a stance. A pretty extreme one. NZ sided with Australia and that was that.

 

[RugbyFuture]

I think you'll find, over time, as others have stated before, the conferences will expand to cover the franchises in the CC and BOX and those respective comps will integrate, so that for,instance, the saffa pool will end up the Carrie cup and the new Zealan# one the ITM cup with more financial sustainability and giving us the h cup system we want !nd need

 

[Blue]

I think you'll find, over time, as others have stated before, the conferences will expand to cover the franchises in the CC and BOX and those respective comps will integrate, so that for,instance, the saffa pool will end up the Carrie cup and the new Zealan# one the ITM cup with more financial sustainability and giving us the h cup system we want !nd need

Can't see how that would work. Super rugby is contested by franchises. The Currie Cup and ITM cup are inter-provincial comps where those teams feed the Super franchises. In your model. The commercial complexity of abolishing Super franchises and having provinces compete in the Super tournament will be a mess.

 

[RugbyFuture]

basically, rahter than the way you're seeing it, it takes on board the australian model, where the provincial sides are turned into franchises along the way, you already see it basically in south africa, with the bulls and blue bulls, southern kings and eastern province, natal sharks etc and in new zealand where canterbury is crusaders, blues are auckland etc etc, what this would mean is a dilution of territories, that is all. relationships between the franchises and the unions would obviously be neccessary, for both sides, so both would adhere to this general rule.

if south africa get their 6th team soon too, this would mean only another two til the same amount as the premier division in the currie cup, that isnt much, and would make way for others.

 

[Blue]

basically, rahter than the way you're seeing it, it takes on board the australian model, where the provincial sides are turned into franchises along the way, you already see it basically in south africa, with the bulls and blue bulls, southern kings and eastern province, natal sharks etc and in new zealand where canterbury is crusaders, blues are auckland etc etc, what this would mean is a dilution of territories, that is all. relationships between the franchises and the unions would obviously be neccessary, for both sides, so both would adhere to this general rule.

if south africa get their 6th team soon too, this would mean only another two til the same amount as the premier division in the currie cup, that isnt much, and would make way for others.

If only it were that simple we would not need to have this discussion.