2011 Spring Tour

[Train Without a Station]

I hope Daley doesn't go, he should spend every possible minute of the off-season in the gym.

Saw him in there today actually. But the guy just isn't big enough to be a international Loosehead. He's a strong lump of a lad that warms up on the bench and squat rack with weights that are part of my normal work out, but he is still under the 110kg mark and I think his desire to be a fit bloke (Constantly see him smashing himself on the treadmill and bike) are possibly to his detriment. Love him to bits as a player, due to his willingness to all the tight, shit work and that when he scores a try it's running through about 5 blokes, not swanning around on the wing.

Would love to see him sacrifice a little bit of frequency in his work rate, for a bit more size and strength in the scrum.

 

[tigerland12]

Saw him in there today actually. But the guy just isn't big enough to be a international Loosehead. He's a strong lump of a lad that warms up on the bench and squat rack with weights that are part of my normal work out, but he is still under the 110kg mark and I think his desire to be a fit bloke (Constantly see him smashing himself on the treadmill and bike) are possibly to his detriment. Love him to bits as a player, due to his willingness to all the tight, shit work and that when he scores a try it's running through about 5 blokes, not swanning around on the wing.

Would love to see him sacrifice a little bit of frequency in his work rate, for a bit more size and strength in the scrum.

You're pretty much spot on there. But you never know, the French props weren't the biggest/heaviest lads, and they tore sides to shreds, so maybe better scrummaging will come with experience. Many forget how young Dales is, if he learns to scrum properlly then he has potential to be one of the best props going around. Anyway its not like many other Australians can scrum either!

 

[No4918]

Don't really know too much about your front rows but, the one that played against Wales did much better than most of us thought they would, true Our TH P James is a recognised LH, but can still do a job on the tight, If you notice on several scrums the Welsh come up complaining about the calls that go against them, If the Aussies were doing something illegal it was up to us to put it right we didn't and you had the upper hand ffor most of the game.
Our No1 TH Adam Jones is very good and holds his own or betters all the Northern teams who have some very good scrummagers of their own, If he is fit when we meet Dec 3rd, then your scrum will not have all its own way. I might even watch some S15 rugby this year,

Be warned. I wouldn't advise watching super rugby if you arent prepared to be disappointed whenever you watch the NH stuff again

 

[Gnostic]

I face palm every time I see a post with a fixation on size. As most sex therapists will tell you size isn't everything and technique and skill will do more in the long run.

The best example for a prop I can think of, and I have posted it before, is Tom Smith of Scotland. A small prop, at his heaviest he was just over 100Kg yet he managed to be a very formidable scrummager which ensured he won 61 Caps for Scotland and 6 for the BI Lions.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I face palm every time I see a post with a fixation on size. As most sex therapists will tell you size isn't everything and technique and skill will do more in the long run.

The best example for a prop I can think of, and I have posted it before, is Tom Smith of Scotland. A small prop, at his heaviest he was just over 100Kg yet he managed to be a very formidable scrummager which ensured he won 61 Caps for Scotland and 6 for the BI Lions.

Indeed size isn't everything, but strength needs to be considered, and size doesn't hurt, because no matter how good technique is, it's harder to push a heavier bloke, than it is to push a lighter bloke.

 

[Dai bando]

Be warned. I wouldn't advise watching super rugby if you arent prepared to be disappointed whenever you watch the NH stuff again

:lmao::lmao: Yeah, I've heared it all before, the basket ball you play, and the grunt we play, well grunt won the WC for NZ,:thumb
I take it you don't watch northern rugby, perhaps if you had Ireland wouldn't have beaten you

 

[Ruggo]

Those bloody angry midget front rowers of the French. Who knows why they are there as they are way to small for international rugby?

Anyone get the drift?

 

[Lee Grant]

Dai bando,

Our front row did pretty well that day but a few of us who watch European rugby have already written that we were fortunate that Adam Jones wasn't playing in that game after being injured in the S/F. We wouldn't have been crying crocodile tears for Wales though because our best LHP, Benn Robinson, who should have been opposing him in the perfect world, did his ACL before 3N. He missed the RWC and won't be playing until next year.

The best Oz THP in Super Rugby this year, Kepu, had to play LHP in the RWC though Deans would have probably used Alexander at THP anyway for non-scrummaging stuff. Probably one of the reasons why the Oz scrum was good against Wales is that Alexander didn't start. Kepu was injured in the Oz S/F so Ma'afu, probably our 3rd best THP (I rate Alexander 4th now), did well against Jenkins, who I rate highly. The fellow who played LHP for Oz, Slipper, did well against James, which didn't surprise some of us, because we knew he was really a LHP, and one mentioned it before the game.

Slipper is probably our 2nd best LHP and THP though it's hard to say because he is quite young and he missed a lot of the Super season and 3N. We'll probably be able to judge him in the pecking order better next year after a full season in 2012.

With 1. Jenkins and 3. Adam Jones starting against us next month, again without Robinson, you should have the edge because unfortunately Deans will probably pick Alexander at THP again. If one is injured though we should have the edge.

With everybody healthy for next year, including Robinson for us, when Wales comes to Oz, it should be even but if both teams have one prop out I would back us because we have better replacements. With both Jenkins and A. Jones out and two of ours missing, we would be stronger.


PS Gnostic - Agree about Tommy "Mighty Mouse" Smith.

On the French scrum: everybody seems to be surprised that the French scrum did so well with such a small pack in the RWC, but they've had a small pack for most of the last 10 years, as one has mentioned for yonks - and very few giraffes in the 2nd row also.

 

[Bardon]

Anyone who was surprised at how well the French scrum went needs to watch some HEC games and they'd quickly realise that in the south of France scrumaging is like a religion.

Size plays a part in the scrum but only to the extent that it can tip the scale when technique is evenly balanced between the two front rows. For years Ireland had a soft scrum even with the bull Hayes as one of our props. Cian Healy and Mike Ross weren't instantly top class international props. Healy struggled severly in his first year at international level. The thing that improved Ireland's scrum so much was bringing in Greg Feek as a specialist scrum coach. I'm sure under his guidance they will improve further over the next year or two. Just hope we get in a decent backs coach now that Gaffney is gone.

Also Shane Williams has announced that your game against Wales in December will be his last international appearance.

 

[Lee Grant]

Good post Bardon. Agree about the scrummaging in France - I only wish the Clermont scrums were better.

Bull Hayes had a long run at Ireland without being able to scrummage very well. He had his hand down on the ground (unusual for a THP) the last time we played Ireland away in the last scrum of the game, the officials didn't see it and Drico scored the try that was converted and the match was drawn. That was Bull.

The unfashionable Mike Ross got the gig after Buckley was shown up and he has been tops even though he is a pot plant. I'm not convinced about Healey yet because I thought he got the rub of the green against us in the RWC and I know he's not a great scrummager. Maybe he has improved more than I think - let's see - but there is no doubt that Feek has done well.

In a couple of years time I think Oz will surprise a few teams by being decent and we'll have better depth at prop than Ireland; not that it is saying a lot

But talk is cheap - let's see.

 

[Dai bando]

Hey Lee, one of our weaknesses is our lack of strength in the front row, As I've already said don't follow much southern rugby but, knew about Robinson If Adam jones is injured we tend to strugle a little, We have a good young TH called Mitchell, But wasn't used By gats against you for some reason, used two LH and anothe LH on the bench,
Also Mathew Rees our first choice hooker is a fair scrumager, Bennett is a wee lad not very big,, Your front three like your back three need to compliment each other to get the optimum performance.

Regards Dai

 

[Bardon]

Dai, I think that's where Argentina, France, NZ & England have an advantage. It's not that their 1st choice front row are better scrummagers, though in some cases they are, it's the depth they have that allows them to more easily cope with injuries.

 

[What2040]

Think our best long term front row option is
1. Ben Robinson - more for scrummaging than around the park but not too shabby there - the perfect age and maturity for next few years - highly respected on and off field - good mentor
2. Moore - 100% effort and busy busy
3. Slipper - good either at LHP and THP - best around park by far - still very young for a prop but immense talent for next several years

We need to invest time with these guys with Kepu being able to cover both sides. Alexander then in line. Palmer is a only a potplant and cannot be considered for higher honours until his game around the field improves.

 

[Gnostic]

Interesting that so many still select players like Slipper, not for scrummaging but for work away from the set piece (I rate Slipper as a future scrummaging prop BTW). Are they props or fat backrowers? Until Australian selectors select players to fulfil their core duties first such as the set pieces for the pigs, our scrums and lineouts will remain shite.

Since my post regarding the reasoning behind the selections we have seen I have been considering the selection of Australian Props since 2002. With the exception of Ben Darwin, who before his injury would have rated as the brightest star in Propping (in the core duties) in Oz for many years, all of the props selected were primarily chosen for their work away from the set piece. The best known being Tucky Dunning. Regardless of what many uninformed people may post Dunning was perhaps one of the most skillful props I have seen with ball in hand and for a man of his size he could run and move agilely. With his size and strength if he had been trained properly in scrummaging I have no doubt he could have been a World Class Prop. The fact is under E. Jones the scrum was not regarded as a priority and only parity was required. Tucky was selected purely for what he brought to the game away from the set piece. Likewise Al Baxter (though Al was always a better scrummager but he too would have become so much better had he been availed of decent top flight coaching early in his career to get rid of his technique flaws, by the time these issues were addressed by Link it was too late at Test level as he had been marked and black listed by Refs.).

Fast forward to 2011 and little has changed, apart from a dedicated scrum coach. This is effectively only lip service being given to scrummaging in reality as weak scrummaging players are selected over those strong in the set piece. The thing is I think if Tucky was Alexander's age now and fresh on the scene I think he would be a first choice prop for Deans and Pato would have to make the most of the selection, simply because Tucky in his dotage still has all the attributes that Deans selects in a prop, except like Baxter he has been marked never to tour again. Now that in the light of that observation have a look again at how important the set piece is in the Wallaby set up. IMO it rate a distant second to field work or perhaps a distant third to field work and breakdown. I find it interesting that the selection of these non-specialist players with these field and breakdown skills has rarely resulted in the Wallabies dominating around the field or the breakdown, while at the same time sacrificing the set piece. If the ABs adopted the same selection policies then Crocket, Tialata and Afoa would be starting props for the ABs (probably a poor analogy as even poor scrummagers are taught better technique in NZ than some of the best in Oz)

In closing I truly hope that somebody corrects Alexander weak scrummaging technique as he has huge potential. I hope Jake White can do it, who is the Brumbies scrum coach next year, not Young again I please?

 

[Gnostic]

Indeed size isn't everything, but strength needs to be considered, and size doesn't hurt, because no matter how good technique is, it's harder to push a heavier bloke, than it is to push a lighter bloke.

You do know that the AB pack outweighed the French by nearly 50Kg, and the Oz pack was one of the biggest in height and weight at the RWC. Size is not a true indicator of strength and my point Re:- Smith was not fully appreciated by some, he dominated many very good props far heavier than him simply through technique and of course strength, but ultimately it was his technique that allowed him to apply his strength. Without technique strength is just a waste, like a Ferrari engine in a Datsun 120Y.

Ultimately the arguments about size are a distraction from proper selection criteria. IMO the whole issue of size in all positions should be relegated to the Trivial Pursuit board and drunken "I Know more useless crap than you" arguments with mates.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Gnostic I totally agree. But when you are constantly smaller than your opposition, who also have quality technique, size does not hurt, at worst it's more they have to push. I don't think we want to be aiming to have the world's smallest international props. I believe Daley would be smaller than the French pack, who also have a considerably better scrum pedigree.

 

[Jnor]

I think TWOAS' point was that ceteris paribus a larger bloke will go better than a smaller bloke at the tight work.

Edit: D'oh beaten to it by the man himself

 

[Train Without a Station]

You managed to put it a little more concisely than my ramblings however.

 

[Bowside]

Can we go back to talking about who is our best Inside centre now?

 

[Gnostic]

Can we go back to talking about who is our best Inside centre now?

As long as you don't dribble on about size