2011 Spring Tour

[DPK]

Ryan Jones should start over Thompson IMO.

 

[Lee Grant]

Agree about Daley who is so estimable in diligence, agility, attitude and working hard, but doesn't have the technique in the scrum, and perhaps not the strength either. He is big enough to play LHP but the other stuff is missing up to now.

More to the point of what I wrote earlier - who will Deans choose to replace Kepu should he he not tour? He has taken no interest in Palmer until now. Mind you Palmer played his last game for the Brumbies in R11 at the end of April, due to a groin injury, IIRR. He returned to club rugby but I can't remember him in in the last couple of months of the season; so maybe the injury recurred.

As others have mentioned: he is a bit of a pot plant around the park and doesn't have a lot of involvements outside of the scrum, but as somebody (Gordon Bray?) wrote recently: it's up to the coaches to get him right in the other matters.

He's not the first THP to add value to his team for scrummaging only, or almost so. The Ireland scrum was ordinary at best with Bull Hayes at THP and later, Tony Buckley. It was only when the unfashionable Mike Ross was given a chance, more by default than anything else, that the Ireland scrum improved. And unless I'm adding value to him after the event, he seems to have become more useful outside of scrummaging since he became a regular test starter, especially in short runs near the opponent's goal line.


Does anybody know of Palmer'is current fitness status? Is he training with the Brumbies?
.

 

[Swarley]

Ryan Jones should start over Thompson IMO.

As would I, but with Graham Henry coaching he might favour Thomson (either consciously or subconsciously).

 

[No4918]

Lee, with no Kepu i'm expecting Cowan as Deans had him in the 3Ns team. Daley must be close to his equal but dont think either should go. Getting rid of Baxter makes absolutely no sense at a time like this. Easily better than both in the scrums and only loses to Daley around the park:banghead

 

[Mr Doug]

Swarley, you asked if the Barbarians still need to have 'one uncapped international player'. After talking to a former-Wallaby relo recently, he thinks that's still the case. However, if the rule was changed to "one capped player, not of international standard", then your 'possible Barbarians team', which includes #14 SBW would be ok!!

 

[Lee Grant]

Lee, with no Kepu i'm expecting Cowan as Deans had him in the 3Ns team. Daley must be close to his equal but dont think either should go. Getting rid of Baxter makes absolutely no sense at a time like this. Easily better than both in the scrums and only loses to Daley around the park:banghead

Like Daley, Cowan is no great chop as a prop. He plays for my local club, the Rats, and he does well enough in club rugby but that's about it.

Baxter was a resource not well used by Deans when we had injuries; however, I am sneakily confident in the medium term about props (and not to the point, but hookers too).

Kepu (as a THP), Slipper and Fat Cat can hold their own in most company. Alexander and Ma'afu (if he keeps the same form as against Wales) are good replacements, though Benny always starts somehow - and Ma'afu should be starting most weeks for the Force.

THP Palmer was on the rise this year but it was curtailed by injury. Apart from a couple of weeks when Ma'afu got a run he was starting every week for the Brumbies before then. LHP Longbottom looked suspiciously competent; so let's watch him next year. Greg Holmes looked impressive in the finals at THP and has played on the LH side a lot on his comeback.

Longer term we may be looking at THP PAE. He looked pretty good for Force A in Sydney earlier this year and should get on the park for a bit in 2012 even though it won't be long after his 20th birthday. It's too early to be talking about LHPs Faulkner and Sio but they are both decent in Sydney club rugby so watch this space on them.

Not all these bets will come off but if our 3 best props: Slipper, Fat Cat and Kepu stay healthy, plus Alexander, who will probably be picked anyway, and a couple of the others step up, we should not be embarrassed as much as we have been in recent times.
.

 

[DPK]

I think Ben Alexander gets a harsh rap around here. He was part of the successful 2009 Wallaby scrum, but his collapsing has been a real blight on the pack at times.

It's his work around the field that I think is underrated. I'm not sure on the stats, but I see Alexander as one of the more effective-over-efficient members of the Wallabies.

I'm normally all for picking a prop that can scrum over a prop that can run, but I think Alexander's value is unsung.

 

[MrTimms]

And that added element is wasted because he is putting more energy into scrumming at TH than he should if he was playing his natural position at LH. Another stubborn selection that makes no sense. Even less sense since we got a better TH (Kepu) moved to LH to accommodate it.

I know what will go along way to fixing our scrum issues, NOT playing players out of position.

 

[fatprop]

I can't believe it is a Dean's "decision" in isolation, it has to be his scrum and forwards coach giving him the advice that they believe Alexander is a better option at THP.

Alexander at LHP does get done for hinging a lot for the Brumbies

 

[Slim 293]

I actually believe that Alexander has been performing scrum-wise better at the THP this year, as he was getting pinged a lot when playing LH for the Brumbies...

But I think it's in his and everyone's interest to make an effort to return to LH so we can see Palmer start at the Brumbies.

 

[James Buchanan]

But I think it's in his and everyone's interest to make an effort to return to LH so we can see Palmer start at the Brumbies.

I'm fairly sure in his mind he'd rather be starting at THP and developing there than riding the pine behind fatcat and hoping for a game.

 

[Bowside]

I think deans decision to play him at TH was so fat cat could play LH, but then fat cat did his knee and deans just decided to roll with it. Personally I would have played Keps at TH and Slipper at LH as I think this is our best scrummaging front row without sacrificing too much around the field.

If kepu is injured for this tour I would defiantly take holmes. Daley and Palmer need to work on their games before they are test standard. I dont rate Ma-afu and Cowan as test players, but I suspect both of them will get the call up before any of Holmes, Daley or Palmer.

 

[DPK]

Personally I would have played Keps at TH and Slipper at LH as I think this is our best scrummaging front row without sacrificing too much around the field.

I don't think you'd lose anything with Kepu/Moore/Slipper, in the scrum or around the field.

 

[Bowside]

I don't think you'd lose anything with Kepu/Moore/Slipper, in the scrum or around the field.

That's what I was saying. Slipper is very good around the field, does a lot of work in defense and always a dominant tackler - never lets the team down with his scrummaging either. Moore is king of the tight stuff, and kepu can do the crash balls.

Taf and Benny A can come on later in the game for the glory runs against the tiring forwards.

 

[Slim 293]

I'm fairly sure in his mind he'd rather be starting at THP and developing there than riding the pine behind fatcat and hoping for a game.

His desire to play TH should (but probably won't) see him riding the pine behind Palmer at the Brumbies...

 

[Gnostic]

And that added element is wasted because he is putting more energy into scrumming at TH than he should if he was playing his natural position at LH. Another stubborn selection that makes no sense. Even less sense since we got a better TH (Kepu) moved to LH to accommodate it.

I know what will go along way to fixing our scrum issues, NOT playing players out of position.

Agree is not strong enough Timsy.

IMO there is a very strong case to indicate that Deans (and the other selectors if they really have any input) selects who he wants and the other coaches then have to fit them into the side where ever they can.

The evidence for my rationale is:-
1> Alexander is probably the best ball running and support Prop in Oz. He is at best fourth or fifth best TH and perhaps the fourth best LH. Alexander has been selected purely for running and support play. Pato then has to fit him in where he can do the least damage to the set piece. Being supported on both shoulders seems to prevent much of Alexander's hinging problem, which I still contend is a problem with his set up. Hence he is tight head. With Fatcat in the frame this was a hidden issue as most would say that Fatcat is an automatic selection and hence "forces" Alexander to TH. This completely ignores that the best performing THP in Oz this year was Kepu, who in fact kept Baxter on the bench by pure form when the latter returned from injury. I would argue the evidence of past selection policies of Deans gives a strong indication that had Fatcat been fit Alexander would still have been selected at TH and Kepu dropped to the bench or out of the side with Slipper preferred for his work around the field. The facts that Deans preference is for running field work Props is reinforced by the selection of Cowan (not only at prop but also at Hooker), Daley and Maafu ahead of better set piece performing Props who don't have the running game. The trade off is a set piece that manages to hold its own at best against top opposition.
2) The problem has also extended itself to the second row. It is only last year that Chisholm was preferred to Sharpe and this year Simmons and Vickerman have taken Chisholm's place. There can be no doubt at all that on form Sharpe was the best lock on Oz this year and most opposition sides rate him just as highly. Sharpe has taken huge flak for his scrum performance in 2007 but the saviour Vickerman was his partner and escaped the blame. Well why has he not be criticised this time for the failure of the scrum and the lineout. For all he offers at the breakdown the set piece turned to rubbish and if not the scrum the lineout, with Sharpe was a strength for Oz last year.
3) Backrow - again we see a penchant for "workrate" types with no real specialists or form players. The late move to put Samo at 8 was a part admission in my view that McCalman just didn't provide the drive either off the scrum or around the park to get over the gain line. However the idea that McCalman could play as a non-fetcher 7 (in the mode of a Dusatoir or Obrien) totally ignored his lack of impact to go with his impressive workrate.

IMO the only way to ensure that the Pack (and the team) performs more consistently is to select players with demonstrated form who are not injured and play them in their correct positions (ie the ones where they have displayed that form). Making compromises to get his favourite ball runners on the field is what has in my view destroyed the Wallaby set piece and the cohesion of the pack as a whole.

 

[light]

The thing I hate most about Deans' is that he doesn't appear to learn from the mistakes of the previous games. We have adequate if not better options in the squad for half the positions in the starting XV, if someone is out of touch, give them the hook and allow someone else a run. His stubbornness annoys me and whilst he is at the helm I don't think we can hope for the best starting XV anytime soon, there will always be controversial selections and form players overlooked in favour of developing players who just aren't up to the mark or are out of form and low on confidence.

 

[Lee Grant]

Good post up above Gnostic with some original thinking.

I don't mind if the THP is a bit of a pot plant though the original, David Fitter, was a bit of a disaster. LHPs usually have to be more active especially when the open side is on their left.

The frustrating part of Alexander's scrummaging is that he seems to stand too far away which makes hitting up unlikely and hinging down likely, unless the forces meet just so. Watch the Northampton scrum when all the RWC players are on board again. They all hit up and sometimes pop up and get pinged when they get it wrong but it isn't very often.

I thought Vickerman would offer more in the scrummage as the TH lock but when he played with Horwill I was surprised that he was used on the LH side; so the THP got no support from him. I thought he would boss the lineout better but, even apart from bad throws, he didn't seem to contribute much there. That was my major disappointment with him, not the scrums.




Not to the point of this thread, but I don't want to start a new thread: The Oz Schoolboys played NZ Schools a few weeks ago at Knox. Foxtel will be broadcasting a 1 hour replay of the game: Tues 2nd Nov. 2pm ... and again on Thurs. 4th Nov 1am. Have a look at a few of our up and coming players and if you have any comments make them on the relevant thread. There are some comments on the game and some of the players; so if you want to add to them use the schools forum:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/forum/threads/7436-Australian-Schools-2011-and-National-Championships?p=298790#post298790

But don't go to that thread if you don't want to know the result beforehand.

 

[waves]

In regards to scrummaging I would imagine Robbie Deans would have minimal involvement with them, Most of these questions should be posted at Noreiga or Jimmy Williams they have been working with this team for a number of years now surely they should know by now our best tight 5 combination.

 

[Dai bando]

Don't really know too much about your front rows but, the one that played against Wales did much better than most of us thought they would, true Our TH P James is a recognised LH, but can still do a job on the tight, If you notice on several scrums the Welsh come up complaining about the calls that go against them, If the Aussies were doing something illegal it was up to us to put it right we didn't and you had the upper hand ffor most of the game.
Our No1 TH Adam Jones is very good and holds his own or betters all the Northern teams who have some very good scrummagers of their own, If he is fit when we meet Dec 3rd, then your scrum will not have all its own way. I might even watch some S15 rugby this year,