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Refereeing decisions

JRugby2

Bill McLean (32)
Isn't the ball dead between scrum resets? I would have thought it was a viable time for the clock to be stopped for substitutions just like before the first scrum is packed.
Yes but not in the same practical sense as pre scrum.

If we have a reset, the idea is to have that reset as quickly as possible. Once the failed scrum is stopped, it's generally a less than 10 second stop for the players to stand back up and the referee to deliver a message before the formation restarts. That's not enough time to facilitate a tactical sub.
 

Wilson

John Eales (66)
Interesting question around this - if Moana hadn't got the turn over and the blues had instead run the length of the field to score, would/should that stand? Or does it (correctly this time) go back to the Lalomilo foot in touch?
 

JRugby2

Bill McLean (32)
yeah whatever was in that last passage of play, so up to the last: scrum, lineout, pen, free kick, turnover, try or any other stoppage.

Dumb.
 

Strewthcobber

Michael Lynagh (62)
The official line for Super Rugby is
“Under the current TMO protocol, a try can only be overturned if there is a clear and obvious infringement in the last attacking passage of play leading directly to the try,”

Defining an attacking passage of play’ as: “The passage of play since the last restart (if there has been no turnover in possession), or the passage of play since the last turnover in possession has taken place.”
 

Wilson

John Eales (66)
The official line for Super Rugby is
“Under the current TMO protocol, a try can only be overturned if there is a clear and obvious infringement in the last attacking passage of play leading directly to the try,”

Defining an attacking passage of play’ as: “The passage of play since the last restart (if there has been no turnover in possession), or the passage of play since the last turnover in possession has taken place.”
That was my understanding too. Which makes the whole thing particularly ridiculous. Touchies need to be making the call at the time and TMO's need to stop looking at anything they can't rule on.

I have a particular issue with the recent trend (at least to my eyes) of passive touchies - there seems to be this inclination to let the close calls go in the hope that the TMO will be able to rule on anything serious, playing some sort of de facto advantage (but usually with the team that has infringed still in possession). There was a similar call the week before in the Force v Brumbies game where the touchie went to raise his flag halfway but then lowered it when the player was clearly in touch. It's one thing to have this sort of dead time play out on a legitimate advantage (rules exist to govern that, even if they go to long for mine) but there is no precedent for it on a foot in touch. At this point I'd much rather they made the call at the time and got a few wrong, particularly that far out from the line. There's a lot less room for teams and fans to feel robbed when the play hasn't actually unfolded.
 

Strewthcobber

Michael Lynagh (62)
20 minute red cards become a global law trial, which means they will be used in all elite matches

 

JRugby2

Bill McLean (32)
That was my understanding too. Which makes the whole thing particularly ridiculous. Touchies need to be making the call at the time and TMO's need to stop looking at anything they can't rule on.

I have a particular issue with the recent trend (at least to my eyes) of passive touchies - there seems to be this inclination to let the close calls go in the hope that the TMO will be able to rule on anything serious, playing some sort of de facto advantage (but usually with the team that has infringed still in possession). There was a similar call the week before in the Force v Brumbies game where the touchie went to raise his flag halfway but then lowered it when the player was clearly in touch. It's one thing to have this sort of dead time play out on a legitimate advantage (rules exist to govern that, even if they go to long for mine) but there is no precedent for it on a foot in touch. At this point I'd much rather they made the call at the time and got a few wrong, particularly that far out from the line. There's a lot less room for teams and fans to feel robbed when the play hasn't actually unfolded.
I'd disagree its a intentional thing, as you're alluding - rather just a coincidental increasing number of errors that we're seeing, maybe in part because we have this ridiculous "last passage of play" thing.

Bottom line - the group should be better, and some of these errors are inexcusable - and sure - some may be letting the close calls go through to the keeper but the flip side is in doing that they open themselves and the wider MO group up to a mountain of criticism when those errors/ misses are inevitably replayed to death for the next week. For that reason alone I can't see it being intentional as who on earth would want that?

In their defense - the job is genuinely harder than it looks. You have to be very, very good at processing what your eyes are seeing and applying some frankly ridiculous touch laws in a split second and I challenge anyone who thinks it's easy to volunteer at your local association and find out for yourself. To reiterate - these guys are professionals, and should be better and getting those calls right, but I don't believe that this is correct.
 

Wilson

John Eales (66)
I'd disagree its a intentional thing, as you're alluding - rather just a coincidental increasing number of errors that we're seeing, maybe in part because we have this ridiculous "last passage of play" thing.

Bottom line - the group should be better, and some of these errors are inexcusable - and sure - some may be letting the close calls go through to the keeper but the flip side is in doing that they open themselves and the wider MO group up to a mountain of criticism when those errors/ misses are inevitably replayed to death for the next week. For that reason alone I can't see it being intentional as who on earth would want that?

In their defense - the job is genuinely harder than it looks. You have to be very, very good at processing what your eyes are seeing and applying some frankly ridiculous touch laws in a split second and I challenge anyone who thinks it's easy to volunteer at your local association and find out for yourself. To reiterate - these guys are professionals, and should be better and getting those calls right, but I don't believe that this is correct.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest it was necessarily intentional, it might well be in some cases/for some refs, but for the most part I think it's just a consequence of the shifting nature of how games are refereed, technology is used, and they way that has impacted decision making processes. It's something we've seen (or it feels like we've seen, I'm acutely aware this is all vibes and I don't have the data I'd want to back this up) across the board in refereeing, but I think the reduced input and involvement from the touchies across the board is really hurting the game. Potentially this is amplified by the fact that it's ref's running the sideline any given week, rather than specialized touchies.

If we do accept that they are going to make mistakes (any reasonable person would) then I think part of the fix here is leaning towards making the call live and risking more "false positives" (calling players out when they weren't) rather than letting it go through to maybe be checked by the TMO and risking false negatives (not calling players out when they are) in live play. This does kind of run contrary to the general principles the game is refereed by (a benefit of the doubt to the attacking team, allowing the play to flow sometimes in ignorance of the laws), but in touch is also different to almost any other refs call as there is no provision for play to continue, unlike everything that comes under advantage laws.

The other, somewhat related, change I'd like to see explored more is hard limits on advantage. We've seen some minor trials already, but the idea of phase limiting the period of advantage, with the ref to always make a call after a set number phases as to whether advantage has been gained or to go back should also help limit the 'dead play' periods that I think are contributing to the errors we're seeing from refs and hurting the spectacle. It would hopefully also help standardize the benefit gained, at times it feels like this can fluctuate pretty wildly even within games and sometimes results in what is effectively double punishment for the infringing team.
 

Strewthcobber

Michael Lynagh (62)
Simplest option for the touch issue is to just not put these controversial ones up on the big screen if they can't be reviewed.

Or put it another way, allow the ref to take action for anything that is put on the big screen.

How you deal with home producers influencing play is then the problem

For me, the artificial restrictions on making the correct decision is the issue, not the fact that humans are going to make mistakes
 

liquor box

Peter Sullivan (51)
Is it possible to get a straight red card for a trip?

Tupou trip last night was studs up and aimed at the knee, it also did not appear to be a reactive effort, it seemed deliberate.

The other interesting thing last night was when the Force kicked the ball out, a Tahs play caught it and the referee yelled that the ball was still live meaning that a quick lineout was a possibility. At the same time the Tahs hooker took a ball from the ball boy while standing where the line out would be taken from. It seems odd that a quick lineout is still an option once your hooker takes another ball, where is the defendant meant to look?
 

Strewthcobber

Michael Lynagh (62)
Is it possible to get a straight red card for a trip?

Tupou trip last night was studs up and aimed at the knee, it also did not appear to be a reactive effort, it seemed deliberate.

The other interesting thing last night was when the Force kicked the ball out, a Tahs play caught it and the referee yelled that the ball was still live meaning that a quick lineout was a possibility. At the same time the Tahs hooker took a ball from the ball boy while standing where the line out would be taken from. It seems odd that a quick lineout is still an option once your hooker takes another ball, where is the defendant meant to look?
Whatever the hooker with the other ball does doesn't matter.

A quick throw in is going to be on until the line-out is formed (ref will decide when that is).
 

JRugby2

Bill McLean (32)
Is it possible to get a straight red card for a trip?

Tupou trip last night was studs up and aimed at the knee, it also did not appear to be a reactive effort, it seemed deliberate.

The other interesting thing last night was when the Force kicked the ball out, a Tahs play caught it and the referee yelled that the ball was still live meaning that a quick lineout was a possibility. At the same time the Tahs hooker took a ball from the ball boy while standing where the line out would be taken from. It seems odd that a quick lineout is still an option once your hooker takes another ball, where is the defendant meant to look?
Yeah, the wording of the laws around dangerous play are fairly open ended, and so you could receive a straight red for just about anything.

It's not a perfect match - but the head contact process has some trigger words which can be broadly applied to any foul play scenario when judging severity and sanction:

1748212057264.png


So a high danger trip (maybe it was studs up into the shins as you say) that was reckless or intentional could be a red card.
 
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