Wallabies v England November 1

[TSR]

TSR, there are more coaching misfires than player misfires. Eddie Jones may have progressed players into the World Cup team before that were seasoned. Dropping Quade Cooper was the misfire of all misfires leaving one flyhalf in the squad, who hadn’t even played an international game the previous year. There were crucial admissions in that squad but the players that got thrown to the wolves will become better players emotionally in years to come. There is no point reminiscing on the atrocities and now for Rugby Australia to make sure their coaching channels are strong and each state is financial so that the coaching improves and we retain quality players.

This is a rugby blog mate. A good part of our time is spent reminiscing past atrocities

I think the valid point for discussion though is the merits of chucking young guys in the deep end. In this particular case - Carter Gordon - but my post was more about the overall merit of it. Not saying it never works - but I don’t think it’s accurate that it’s something we’ve done successfully as a routine.

I do think the two extra years of life experience are pretty important for Carter, so he’s not quite the young guy he was. But he’s still early in his career and has played zero rugby for 18 months and very little footy at all.

 

[Rugby110]

This is a rugby blog mate. A good part of our time is spent reminiscing past atrocities

I think the valid point for discussion though is the merits of chucking young guys in the deep end. In this particular case - Carter Gordon - but my post was more about the overall merit of it. Not saying it never works - but I don’t think it’s accurate that it’s something we’ve done successfully as a routine.

I do think the two extra years of life experience are pretty important for Carter, so he’s not quite the young guy he was. But he’s still early in his career and has played zero rugby for 18 months and very little footy at all.

It’s classic sliding doors effect or what if moments that we will never know what would have been the better decision at the time. I’ve been around the block a couple of times and watch my fair share of rugby, so reminiscing on rugby matters consumes my daily life. I get exactly what you’re saying about the young ones showing a glimpse of talent and all of a sudden they’re our answer for the flyhalf position. I do think Carter Gordon has much more to offer than a glimpse of talent, and I’m not alone in my views. I think Carter needs to be on the field sooner than later, because this is the only environment he’ll gain experience. There is no point holding him back now.

 

[TSR]

I do agree. I just think the logical step here is to play him off the bench this game. Possible the next as well. I get why people want to move on from Edmed. I believe Gordon is more likely to be the better option. But we’ve already seen with Lolesio the issues that can come from going all in on one option. I don’t see much value for either player in punting Edmed and throwing Carter straight in.

I think the big difference really is in the top 6 inches. Jorgenson and Sua’ali’i are both young and Jorgenson in particular has had his set backs. But they seem to have the self confidence to roll with the punches. I think that’s the exception and always will be. I don’t get the sense Gordon is that ultra confident guy.

 

[Rugby110]

I do agree. I just think the logical step here is to play him off the bench this game. Possible the next as well. I get why people want to move on from Edmed. I believe Gordon is more likely to be the better option. But we’ve already seen with Lolesio the issues that can come from going all in on one option. I don’t see much value for either player in punting Edmed and throwing Carter straight in.

I think the big difference really is in the top 6 inches. Jorgenson and Sua’ali’i are both young and Jorgenson in particular has had his set backs. But they seem to have the self confidence to roll with the punches. I think that’s the exception and always will be. I don’t get the sense Gordon is that ultra confident guy.

I don’t think Joe Schmidt is in a position to punt any of the flyhalves. Carter off the bench would be a good introduction back to the game. If you say he lacks confidence he might need to hang out with Quade more often. Laughing.

 

[Mr Pilfer]

Yeah I would love to see Carter Gordon this game but Joe normally seems to prefer to give them a lot of time in the squad before selection so he might just be in there to get back up to speed.

Cant remember if Tizzano was injured or not but I think he makes a big difference off the bench as well, like seeing him and Fraser playing the last 20 against tired teams so hopefully get that this week

 

[notdeadyet]

when the engish got the penalty when edmed took the ball both englishmen had their heads lower than their bums and both had at least one hand on the ground ???

 

[stillmissit]

I dunno. I reckon Carter Gordon is a good example of why we shouldn’t throw young guys to the wolves. Especially playmakers. You and I went back and forward on this two years ago Stillmissit - and it was Gordon we were discussing then (well - I’m pretty sure it was you - apologies if I am mistaken). By the end of the super season I conceded and got onboard with Gordon being good enough despite his age. And look how that turned out. Yes - there was the Jones factor and it was significant. But Gordon still got caught out for not being ready for test football. As did Lolesio before him and Tom Lynagh may be suffering a similiar fate - although his issues seem more physical. Tom Hooper struggled in his first initiation as a test player and guys like Maddocks have come out openly and said it damaged his development. Going back further guys like Hanigan and Skelton also suffered from being thrown in too early. I’m not saying you can’t give guys a taste of it - guys like Wilson, McReight & Valetini all had their issue early but came through it in the longer run. And there are guys like Jorgenson & Sua’ali’i who seem more able to handle it. But they are the minority.

I don’t agree we’ve ever just thrown our best guys in on any large scale. Our best eras have been built around experience, proven test performers. When rookies have come in they’ve mostly been introduced from the bench and had to win their spot in settled teams. Especially the playmakers. Guys like Michael Lynagh, Stephen Larkham and Bernard Foley were brought in young but in different positions and were introduced more progressively, generally from the bench, before they were put in the hot seat. Flatley debuted at 10 but had Gregan inside him and Horan, Howard, Larkham & Tune outside him and a very strong forward pack. Dan Carter was played at 12 before moving to 10 and, from memory, so was Andrew Mehrtens.


I’d argue one of Australia’s big issues for the last 7-8 years has been far too many young guys without the necessary experience. It’s a problem we still haven’t got past. It’s especially been an issue at 10. Our team seems constantly less experienced than our competitors - especially when you strip out a couple of guys like Slipper and White who account for large numbers of test caps.

I’m cautiously optimistic about Gordon - but I don’t see that taking a more cautious approach with him is a bad thing at all.

Edit: actually I was wrong on Mehrtens. At least for his debut. Looks like not only did he start at 10 but he played a stormer on debut. It was against Canada though.

TSR, thanks for your comprehensive and interesting response. I am travelling to Tassie today, but I will reply tomorrow when I have some time.
regards
Stillmiossit

 

[Tomthumb]

Did you answer my question the other day, who would you like coaching the Wallabies?

Out of the available options Chieka was the only one qualified for the job

Schmidt has reigned in the entire offensive plan that has been built since last years end of year tour which is bizarre. We are back playing the way we did in last years Rugby Championship. Only thing I can think of is that he has zero confidence in Edmed to run the attack, which makes it maddening

 

[dru]

I do agree. I just think the logical step here is to play him off the bench this game. Possible the next as well. I get why people want to move on from Edmed. I believe Gordon is more likely to be the better option. But we’ve already seen with Lolesio the issues that can come from going all in on one option. I don’t see much value for either player in punting Edmed and throwing Carter straight in.

I think the big difference really is in the top 6 inches. Jorgenson and Sua’ali’i are both young and Jorgenson in particular has had his set backs. But they seem to have the self confidence to roll with the punches. I think that’s the exception and always will be. I don’t get the sense Gordon is that ultra confident guy.

Thought I might speak up here. Whatever the previous history with Edmed, right now on the basis of a single test, I think we aught be a little conciliatory. Absolutely things were hopeless to and from 10. But the gameplan drove most of it. Often when the ball got to 10 it was in a mass of D. The game was never intended (imo) to use 10 as a consistent playmaker.

None of that means that Edmed CAN'T be a decent test flyhalf. And right now we are short on options. To be clear, I probably would move on from Edmed at this point (at least when options return) but I'm not completely righting off his future.

 

[Dctarget]

Can anyone watch Squidge's analysis for me and summarise, I can't sit through the pain again.

 

[Major Tom]

Can anyone watch Squidge's analysis for me and summarise, I can't sit through the pain again.

We were shit.
They weren't.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Can anyone watch Squidge's analysis for me and summarise, I can't sit through the pain again.

England's coaches tactics > Australia's coaches tactics.

England's kicking was excellent. Australia's too short

We really miss Skelton.

Tv rights holders blocking all video is maddening

 

[Wilson]

Tv rights holders blocking all video is maddening

It just makes no sense to me. Analysis from Squidge (and others) is not taking viewers away from the games themselves, or any other product the broadcasters want to put out. Instead they drive interest and provide content for the enthusiast section of the audience that will take anything and everything they can get. Incredibly short sighted decision.

 

[Dctarget]

It just makes no sense to me. Analysis from Squidge (and others) is not taking viewers away from the games themselves, or any other product the broadcasters want to put out. Instead they drive interest and provide content for the enthusiast section of the audience that will take anything and everything they can get. Incredibly short sighted decision.

Maybe if I watch Squidge I don't watch Between Two Posts? I don't want to watch multiple analyses of the same game I want to watch the most insightful and entertaining.

They need to bring Squidge in house. Honestly Stan should pay him a $1.20 to come out for the RC next year and do analysis videos. He'd do it for cheap and a hotel room and they could produce some pretty interesting content with his ADHD style combined with a professional studio.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Maybe if I watch Squidge I don't watch Between Two Posts? I don't want to watch multiple analyses of the same game I want to watch the most insightful and entertaining.

They need to bring Squidge in house. Honestly Stan should pay him a $1.20 to come out for the RC next year and do analysis videos. He'd do it for cheap and a hotel room and they could produce some pretty interesting content with his ADHD style combined with a professional studio.

We are in a new world here though, the number of viewers a particular show gets doesn't matter, there's no ad revenue.

All that matters is how many subscribers Stan gets.

It does sound like this is a 6 nations/TNT thing rather that SANZAAR, where squidge seems to have worked something out

 

[Wilson]

Maybe if I watch Squidge I don't watch Between Two Posts? I don't want to watch multiple analyses of the same game I want to watch the most insightful and entertaining.

They need to bring Squidge in house. Honestly Stan should pay him a $1.20 to come out for the RC next year and do analysis videos. He'd do it for cheap and a hotel room and they could produce some pretty interesting content with his ADHD style combined with a professional studio.

Stan have generally been happy for him to use their content, as I understand it it's the competition holders blocking him. But also I really doubt anyone who enjoys a Squidge analysis is then skipping Between Two Posts, Rugby Heaven or the foreign equivalents. Anyone with that degree of interest in the game is watching as much as they can get. If they're skipping one of the others it's not because there was too much, it's much more likely it's because it wasn't good enough and they were unlikely to watch it anyway. What's more is blocking the content won't stop him from making videos or people form watching them, so it's not as though there's any real gain for the rights holder there anyway.

I'm not sure "in house" is the way to go, but World Rugby definitely need to be considering their influencer and social media program for the world cup, and should be looking for a way to enable and empower them as part of the overall promo strategy, rather than limiting them as they're currently doing.

 

[Dctarget]

We are in a new world here though, the number of viewers a particular show gets doesn't matter, there's no ad revenue.

All that matters is how many subscribers Stan gets.

It does sound like this is a 6 nations/TNT thing rather that SANZAAR, where squidge seems to have worked something out

Didn't SANZAAR block him for the TRC too?

 

[Dctarget]

But also I really doubt anyone who enjoys a Squidge analysis is then skipping Between Two Posts, Rugby Heaven or the foreign equivalents. Anyone with that degree of interest in the game is watching as much as they can get.

I will rarely, rarely watch BTP or any Stan extra content, dunno why just doesn't seem quality to me despite me being a massive rugby loser. Probably a me-problem but youtube is so much more accessible than Stan and I'll put on Squidge or Eggchasers in the background rather than navigate the native Stan app.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Didn't SANZAAR block him for the TRC too?

He says in this video today that SANZAAR now let him show 1 minute of footage per video

 

[Strewthcobber]

I will rarely, rarely watch BTP or any Stan extra content, dunno why just doesn't seem quality to me despite me being a massive rugby loser. Probably a me-problem but youtube is so much more accessible than Stan and I'll put on Squidge or Eggchasers in the background rather than navigate the native Stan app.

Never watched any of the Stan stuff either. But I do watch a lot of Squidge