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Women's Rugby Union

cg26

Stan Wickham (3)
Fortunately we have moved on a fair way from that situation but social exclusion can take diverse forms.
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Oh, absolutely. We should always strive to make sure our sport can push down barriers.

But if you are looking at pure numbers playing a sport, it's better if it 'belongs' to the majority (which is not privileged, as you say a problem for men's rugby, but is white) rather than the minority. Of course it shouldn't be an either/or situation but it is a consideration.

The other aspect of that, is why are Islander boys recruited onto teams where they don't 'fit' culturally? Because they have the size and strength (of course there is a skills aspect as well). So in that sense, they have a way to 'break in'. But that doesn't work the other way....
 

happyjack

Sydney Middleton (9)
This is why 7s is such a great game for women. It focuses on athletic skills and large girls who generate their size from obesity alone do not compete.
Also clubs need to put programs in place for girls as well and probably before the state and national union.
Sunnybank have a development scholarship in place for the female coach of their women's team. The girls 7s team will travel interstate and overseas with the men's team. They also have a number of young girls in their Junior Referee Academy.
The girls are in the gym and have their own S&C coach. The combination of the focus on 7s and the gym have seen most of the girls drop significant levels of body fat with some great strength gains.
The 15s game will benefit from this but unfortunately the quality of the competition means that it is very hard to drive a program through 15s.
 

cg26

Stan Wickham (3)
This is why 7s is such a great game for women. It focuses on athletic skills and large girls who generate their size from obesity alone do not compete.
Hmm well I was thinking more of the tall, built Islander girls being really scary, not the obese ones.

I actually think that this is why 7s is not the be-all and end-all of women's rugby. Because you can play rugby without being a super lean touch footy/soccer style girl. (Disclaimer: I haven't played much sevens and don't know what the 'end state' of an ideal 7s player is).

It's great that it's driving development of the women's game in general, but I think it's more due to structural issues (less big entrenched men's competitions like 15s, smaller size of teams/squads being easier to support, tournament style competitions limit costs and commitment) than because 7s is actually better for women in some way.

The 15s game will benefit from this but unfortunately the quality of the competition means that it is very hard to drive a program through 15s.
What do you mean by this?
 

AngrySeahorse

Peter Sullivan (51)
Well... in Australia it is seen (and quite accurately) as a game dominated by Islander women (and Aboriginal, and let's not even start on league). I think it's a serious off-putting factor for the majority of the female population who might otherwise take up the game. a) they get told they are going to get trampled by the Samoans and b) they don't feel welcome in a team where people often speak another language to each other.... Both problems that are not as much of an issue when you actually play but the image is counter-productive.

We lack the GPS/equivalent for Brisbane private schools that help feed the men's game, because conservative private girl's schools are very unlikely to ever take it up. It's going to have to develop in a different way - but how?

Having another insomnia night & came across your post.

I think you raise some genuine concerns because if there is a domination of any particular racial/ethnic group at a club in any sport then it can present a very uninviting image to those that are not a part of the same ethnicity (prime e.g. Oz Cricket). We had a Samoan player come to our Rugby club last year straight out of Samoa. She played for the one season while she was here, lovely person & top player, she really couldn't speak much English & I think our clubs efforts to really include her probably helped her not feel isolated.

For any area that thinks it has a diversity problem I think the best thing is for women's teams to come together & work out ways to tackle it. Women's rugby advertising is a big part of this, when it comes to advertising for players, if one particular group is underrepresented then have that group/s in more advertisements. In Newcastle we use fliers of local club rugby players. I don't know if it was deliberate but I think the girls playing in the picture give a good distribution along the lines of size & race (TBH I don't think the HWRU consciously used this pic with that in mind but it works brilliantly along those lines)
http://hunterwomen.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/Try_Rugby_Flyer_1.jpg

When there is coaching clinics, talks at schools, etc players of different backgrounds with good social skills should be used for these activities. And in the worst case scenario if a local club is really not very open then find the nearest club that doesn't have a women's team & start a new one from scratch.

That all being said my experiences are much different to what you have mentioned. I have not experienced this 'domination' of islander, maori, & aboriginal players here in Newcastle. We certainly have those groups & many more different groups represented here in the community & in Rugby. Some clubs more so than others, but it's never been an issue for women's rugby in terms of recruitment or inclusiveness - at least in the years I've been involved (starting from the year 2000, around 3 or so years I think after women's Rugby started in Newcastle).

In terms of physicality the toughest team I ever faced was Hamilton Harps when I first started years ago, they had probably x2 girls of islander or Maori background - the rest were European. The most islander & Maori populated team was Mayfield East (my old mans old team who got kicked out of the comp) & despite their physicality we always beat them pretty convincingly but always had titanic battles with Hamilton. I think the best thing for future recruits & their parents to dispel any fears is to take them to games to see what actually happens. Demo games of senior women's rugby at schools would be handy too.

Interesting point in terms of culture & inclusiveness is the story of the lady that took me under her wing & looked after me when I came into Rugby as a 16yr old. She is a Maori player who played well into her 40s & it was meeting her that convinced my Ma (who was terrified that I wanted to play Rugby after seeing my Da play it) that I'd be fine. Very early on the first coaching I got at the club was from one of her younger male relatives who was very helpful in starting me on the basics. There was another older Maori player in the team who was also a bit of a mother hen & she was similar in helping me adjust. The lady in her 40's that looked after me later moved on to Mayfield East & tried to bring me over but I'd already committed to Uni - personally the predominantly islander & Maori player group would not have been an issue to me. Ultimately what I'm saying is this is a complex thing that varies person to person, club to club, town to town, etc. It may well be the experience in Brissy but not here in Newcastle despite our own Islander, Maori, & aboriginal population.

As far as school girl Rugby is concerned in Newcastle we have a schoolgirl system through the schools but ideally I think the addition of a club system for school aged girls would be excellent because here club is king. Anything similar like that in Brissy would be great. I would like to hear more about women's Rugby in Brissy as I don't know an a lot about the structure - I have played with girls that played for UQ.
 

AngrySeahorse

Peter Sullivan (51)
This is why 7s is such a great game for women. It focuses on athletic skills and large girls who generate their size from obesity alone do not compete.
Also clubs need to put programs in place for girls as well and probably before the state and national union.
Sunnybank have a development scholarship in place for the female coach of their women's team. The girls 7s team will travel interstate and overseas with the men's team. They also have a number of young girls in their Junior Referee Academy.
The girls are in the gym and have their own S&C coach. The combination of the focus on 7s and the gym have seen most of the girls drop significant levels of body fat with some great strength gains.
The 15s game will benefit from this but unfortunately the quality of the competition means that it is very hard to drive a program through 15s.

Read my post at the top of page 2 in this thread & you'll pretty much get my response to why your way off the mark with those statements but to add....

"7's is such a great game for women" correction "7's is such a great game for pansies who don't like contact". Fixed.

7's does not benefit 15's. 15's does not give you huge gaps to run through. 7's does not teach you to deal with heavy contact/traffic or even scrummage or do a proper full line-out, mauling, etc. Are you trying to say the quality of the 15's competition is low? I hope not because that would be embarrassing, you see Sunnybank you mentioned with its great program & fit 7's players were beaten by my regular 15's team at a 7's comp last year. Obviously the 15's comp we come from out in the sticks is more than competitive enough to beat a side that has its own S+C program & the like. The Sunnybank girls (nice girls & great players by the way) would benefit from playing 15's, IMO it would make them more well rounded players & it is a waste to see them just play 7's. I remember their girls running high into tackles both in defense & attack which I think would get trained out of them more with 15's. If they learnt that then they may well have beaten us. They weren't at that particular 7's comp this year which was a shame, the comp was poorer for not having them. There is nothing complicated or hard about driving a 15's program if you've got well organised people involved.

The fact that large obese girls are catered for in 15's is one of the reasons 15's is the better form & makes it unique to other sports.

Based on body type & my speed I'm made for 7's but the challenge of 15's is more appealing to me & pretty much all the women rugby players I've talked to locally, including ones that have represented our country, not one values 7's higher than 15's. In fact female players have just outright said that they hate 7's & its not the huge girls you think, lots of them are pocket rockets smaller than me.

I find it really amusing that some blokes actually think that women & girls rugby players would prefer 7's to 15's because of the less physicality. LMFAO! - FEMALES TAKE UP RUGBY BECAUSE WE LOVE THE PHYSICALITY!!! As my Ma says I think this is more a case of males assuming to know what females want but as usual getting it totally wrong :rolleyes:;)
 

Tim&Bingo

Chris McKivat (8)
I'm UK based and pretty much fixed on Girls/Womens rugby development across a range of abilities and enthusiasms. We try to start girls at mixed club minis or primary school tag. When 12 they move to girls only rugby, and then the aim is to build confidence with the contact side of the game through Club rugby (there are significant financial incentives for any club that runs a girls section from the RFU/RFUW). There is also a well policed "County" (State/Province for you in Aus?) system that is used to identify talent early and can result in guidance to school/college assistance for sports science/coaching scholarships. Last year with my local county Women's/Girls sections we have discovered(?) developed/delivered 2 Women to the England Women's elite squad who had only ever previously played Club rugby until their County development programme last November 2011. Both gained their full Women's caps for England at 15s last week. Don't get me wrong, the England Women's development programme is VERY demanding but opportunities exist across many levels, developed by elite Women for elite Women. There is another process where Women of elite athletic prowess are invited to trial who might never have picked up a rugby ball ever before BUT, they are athletes (Runners, Swimmers, Soccer girls, gymnasts ) who have proven discipline and attributes (mind sets?) who have enough gumption to catch the egg and run in a straight direction. The England coaching teams then work with them to stream them into higher level Women s rugby in the English league systems/National development.
I'm now also Manager of the Bristol Women's Rugby squad ( http://www.bristolrugby.co.uk/fixtures/bristol-ladies/ ) which caters for 2 levels of Elite womens rugby, with ongoing development of the girls sections below.
KEY - get the bigger clubs involved in supporting Girls/Womens development - if there is a "name" or "Brand" there that they, or Mum and Dad can relate/aspire to then this is a big help.
Any Aussie girls fancy a run out here in UK whilst working/studying then please contact me via PM.
Your national body needs to take a lead - girls/women from all backgrounds love giving it a go on the paddock - trust me on that - especially the end of season tour to elsewhere!
Also, for Girls, think 10s - halfway between 7s and 15s with more space to run! We push that here often.
 

AngrySeahorse

Peter Sullivan (51)
Wow Tim that is one impressive system. As I say you guys are way ahead of us. I can tell you what the pathway is for a player from the Hunter-Newcastle area. Basically club, then Hunter rep (plays Country champs against other NSW Country areas), then NSW Country team gets picked & normally plays at Nationals - against QLD, ACT, etc, next level from that is Wallaroos. There is also school girl Rugby & school girl rep, last year the Hunter School girls played a visiting Canadian school girls team. Unfortunately the ARU is focused on 7's so nationals is not taking place but that doesn't stop the women's 15's bodies from organising games of 15's between teams like NSW Country & QLD for example.

If any girls are heading out to the UK I'll let them know about you!

On another note I hope people don't think I'm trying to blast them with my opinions, I'm just really passionate about 15's & the opportunities it provides for ALL females. I feel the 7's & 15's divide may create a similar situation to how League & Rugby divided. That for mine is not good, it's just going to thin out player stocks & develop less intelligent players.
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
AngrySeahorse, The Sunnybank program that Happyjack is talking about has just been implemented this year. It is designed to put a pathway in place for the players that would like to represent Australia at the Olympic games in 4 years time. Currently this is the pinnical of Women's rugby in Australia as there are no 15 a side tests on the horizon, not saying I agree with this but it is the way life is at the moment. Sunnybank has struggled at times in the past to recruit female players to the club and as such has not had a history of a strong womens team. At the start of last year they ran a 7's comp that attracted a large number of players, around 60 from memory but I could be wrong. These players were all keen to play rugby but did not see 15's as the path for them. Many of them joined the 15's program after having a taste of 7's, part of the reason for the program. This year things have stepped up again with the assistance provided to the women's coach and the S&C training they are getting.

You have made your point in regards disliking 7's. That is fine. But there are women that enjoy it and want to play it. Since it is now an Olympic sport it will attract more athlete's who aspire to go to the Olympic games.

In Australia at the moment men's 7's is used as a pathway to professional 15's players. If you look at the players who have come through the system I think it does a great job in this. You seem adamant that this will not work with women's rugby and this is the point that I am struggling with in your argument against 7's.

Also if you and all of your friends are so against 7's why do you continue to play in 7's tournaments? Wouldn't you be better off organising more 15's games? All of the 7's tournaments I have been to have been well run, all of the participants seem to be enjoying themselves and there are lots of teams keen to play. I think it's a case of the players making their wishes known by their involvement.
 

AngrySeahorse

Peter Sullivan (51)
Jets we play 7's when there are no 15's on because we like to support regional areas like Crescent Heads that run these types of competitions despite the dislike of 7's. In fact last time we went to this 7's comp a number of the women's sevens teams joined to play 15's on the adjacent ground if that gives you any indication of what they want to play - this was mainly girls from areas that don't have 15's.

We also already organise 15's preseason games & the like but we try to support people who have been good to us like CH's. The real sticking point is how much the focus on 7's will be to the detriment to 15's. The 15's players were the pioneers of women's rugby & 7's is pretty much riding on the coat tails of that hard work.

No issues with Sunnybank doing what they are doing if that is what they think is best for them & if some of the girls get into 15's that would be great. One thing is certain our setup is way behind England.

As far as 15's go there has never been an abundance of 15's tests for women even before 7's came onto the scene. I like to win. I hate losing. I look at the direction we are heading here & I grave fears for our performance at the Women's Rugby World Cup (15's) which IS & always will be the pinnacle of Rugby. I disagree regarding the idea that 7's is the pinnacle in this country most of our top players have come from areas that have a heavy 15's focus.

I'm not real concerned about bringing in 7's players for backs positions in 15's but forwards are a different story.

I've pretty much summed up the bulk of this issue to this point in this thread re: 7s/15s so unless there is anything new brought up this is my last word on the matter.
 

cg26

Stan Wickham (3)
Having another insomnia night & came across your post.
I think the girls playing in the picture give a good distribution along the lines of size & race (TBH I don't think the HWRU consciously used this pic with that in mind but it works brilliantly along those lines)
http://hunterwomen.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/Try_Rugby_Flyer_1.jpg
You certainly were!
It's a great pic.

When there is coaching clinics, talks at schools, etc players of different backgrounds with good social skills should be used for these activities. And in the worst case scenario if a local club is really not very open then find the nearest club that doesn't have a women's team & start a new one from scratch.
To clarify - I am not suggesting that any clubs are less than open, I am suggesting that they could appear that way to a girl who has never played (who ain't going to start one from scratch!). She may then never inquire and get in touch with the wonderful, welcoming girls like the Maori girl you mention later. As you say the outreach activities like at schools are very important.

. I would like to hear more about women's Rugby in Brissy as I don't know an a lot about the structure - I have played with girls that played for UQ.
Actually my experience is from Sydney and not recent. But I don't think we have much in the way of schoolgirls and definitely no underage club teams.
 

AngrySeahorse

Peter Sullivan (51)
To clarify - I am not suggesting that any clubs are less than open, I am suggesting that they could appear that way to a girl who has never played (who ain't going to start one from scratch!). She may then never inquire and get in touch with the wonderful, welcoming girls like the Maori girl you mention later. As you say the outreach activities like at schools are very important.

Ahhh right I get what you're saying now. I remember when I turned up to my first training session, & the women's team hadn't turned up yet, that walking into the club training fields where all the mens grades were training & not knowing anyone was quite intimidating for me as a 16yr old. Of course in time I found out the mens players were really nice & I became comfortable at the club but as you say sometimes the image doesn't portray how things really are. I guess being hell bent on playing Rugby helped me overcome any of these concerns. Its the girls that are mulling over several sporting options, with no clear front runner, that are the hardest to sell the game to in that regard as they'll probably have sports available to them with less intimidating images on offer. That's one of the biggest challenges for sure.
 

cg26

Stan Wickham (3)
I'm now also Manager of the Bristol Women's Rugby squad ( http://www.bristolrugby.co.uk/fixtures/bristol-ladies/ ) which caters for 2 levels of Elite womens rugby, with ongoing development of the girls sections below.
KEY - get the bigger clubs involved in supporting Girls/Womens development - if there is a "name" or "Brand" there that they, or Mum and Dad can relate/aspire to then this is a big help.
There are like, two different levels of competition you can put an adult women's team in? Wow. England are so far ahead.

Any Australian perspectives on whether it is or is not beneficial to be closely tied to a men's rugby club? I imagine for brand recognition and maybe supporters it is good, but what about practical matters of administration and funding? Extra support or the girls get overlooked?
 
O

Ole Two Blue

Guest
There are like, two different levels of competition you can put an adult women's team in? Wow. England are so far ahead.

Any Australian perspectives on whether it is or is not beneficial to be closely tied to a men's rugby club? I imagine for brand recognition and maybe supporters it is good, but what about practical matters of administration and funding? Extra support or the girls get overlooked?

We welcomed our ladies team back this year after they had a two year hiatus away at another club. We are absolutely thrilled the girls are back. They are respected and valued just as much as our mens teams......if not more. They contribute to the culture of the club in so many positive ways. There is not enough time in the day (or words in my vocabulary) to express their value to the club.

We included the girls requirements in all of our apparel purchasing. We sourced a private sponsor to cover some costs and we hold events and meetings etc where the girls input and attendance is not only appreciated but extremely valued. And the working relationship will only get better and stronger as we stay together.

The only issue we had, and this is not a blight on the team or its members itself, was that we made several requests to Sydney Womens Rugby Association for some of the girls games to be played at our home ground when the men are playing. The intention here was to give the girls the opportunity to play on our main oval, before our 1st XV, in front of a crowd so we can showcase the contribution they make to our club. SWRA completely igonored our requests. We were totally perplexed why they wouldnt even consider the request of a 1st divison senior club in its attempt to promote the womens game.

It was so disappointing to see that the incompetence exercised in the promotion of the mens competition was mirrored by the incompetent short sighted management of the womens comp. Yet again, another example of rugby killing itself in this country
 

cg26

Stan Wickham (3)
We welcomed our ladies team back this year after they had a two year hiatus away at another club. We are absolutely thrilled the girls are back. They are respected and valued just as much as our mens teams......if not more. They contribute to the culture of the club in so many positive ways. There is not enough time in the day (or words in my vocabulary) to express their value to the club.

It was so disappointing to see that the incompetence exercised in the promotion of the mens competition was mirrored by the incompetent short sighted management of the womens comp. Yet again, another example of rugby killing itself in this country

That's pretty poor :( Did you get any games at the times you wanted? What club is it by the way? Sounds like you are awesome for your ladies team :)
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
Thought this might interest some here.

http://www.sunnybankrugby.com.au/kicking-goals-in-blokes-domains/

Kicking goals in blokes’ domains

Friday, May 11th, 2012
By admin
Article from Quest Community Newspapers, Southern Star 09/05/12
Liam Parsons

One does her damage on the football field and the other does her best work on the building site – but Moana Virtue and Stacey Rimene share a lot in common.
Both have forged pathways in the traditionally male-dominated arenas of rugby union and the construction industry.
Ms Rimene is the general manager of BBC Homes, a sponsor of the Sunnybank Dragons captained by Ms Virtue.
After starting out as a bricklayer, Ms Rimene has built an impressive career, culminating in recognition as Small Businesswoman of the Year by the Queensland chapter of the National Association of Women in Construction last year.

“I started as a bricklayer and was told I couldn’t do it because I was a female. But I worked my way up,” Ms Rimene said.
Ms Virtue, whose grandmother also played rugby union, said her choice of sport still suprised many people, 14 years after she took up the game.
“When I tell them I play rugby they first think it’s touch. But when I explain we play the same way as the (Queensland) Reds do, they seem to get it,” she said.
Ms Rimene, who regularly visits high schools to encourage girls to think about a career in the construction industry, was proud to support Sunnybank.


“It’s part of the reason the company supports the Dragons – it’s another male-dominated area,” she said.
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
Women's rugby is back on the field after a long break. Not sure why but round 1 of the comp was played in April and round 2 is this weekend, one game was played last week.
University and Sunnybank are playing each other tomorrow. Both teams are undefeated, only having played one game, and the winner will be the only undefeated team left in the completion. I am guessing things will be tight this year.
Would be great to hear some reports from the games if anyone is heading out to watch.
 

Cat_A

Arch Winning (36)
The Uni v Sunnybank game was recorded. I'm negotiating to get a highlights package made to post up with the 3rd tier post, but not sure if I'll be quick enough. If not, I'll post into here.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
Coaches get raw footage straight after the game. Did you use your feminine wiles on someone to make you a highlight package?
 

AngrySeahorse

Peter Sullivan (51)
Country Champs (15's) was played this weekend. I'm absolutely exhausted but when I recover a bit I'll do a bit of a write up on it.
 
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