Which clubs are the Class of 2012 going to?

[Inside Shoulder]

Either that, or it demonstrates that if you do not make it at schoolboy level then you are finished.
Have a look at the 7's side. If you could not field a team from the SS that would flog these kids, then I would give up.
If you are not an early physical developer and make the state 16's side, or you do not go to a GPS School. it is just about all over as far as rep footie as an adult is concerned.
Look at who has been invited to join the tah's in the off season.Schoolboys and failed mungoes.They also have a prop who finished the year in 3rd grade.How does that work?
The guy awarded best and fairest in the SS last year is a 10, who was dropped from the 7's program and is obviously not considered as worthy of a look by the Tahs.BTW he was neither a 16 yo prodigy nor a GPS product, IIRC.

coming from the peninsula i bet he'd played mungoes, though!

 

[Blackers13]

Either that, or it demonstrates that if you do not make it at schoolboy level then you are finished.
Have a look at the 7's side. If you could not field a team from the SS that would flog these kids, then I would give up.
If you are not an early physical developer and make the state 16's side, or you do not go to a GPS School. it is just about all over as far as rep footie as an adult is concerned.
Look at who has been invited to join the tah's in the off season.Schoolboys and failed mungoes.They also have a prop who finished the year in 3rd grade.How does that work?
The guy awarded best and fairest in the SS last year is a 10, who was dropped from the 7's program and is obviously not considered as worthy of a look by the Tahs.BTW he was neither a 16 yo prodigy nor a GPS product, IIRC.

Absolutely spot on ILTW. The development structure in this country is seriously flawed. We tell prodigious 16 year olds they are superstars and put them in Gold programs and Academies where all they do is train and play each other and we end up with a result like the World Under 19's last year. Sure, identify a 16 year old and tell him to finish his school/junior career, play Colts and make grade and then pull him into the development structure. The prop you referred to was easily handled by blokes much his own age the three times I saw him play last year, yet he gets called into the Tahs?? Hamish Angus deserved the Catchpole Medal, yet can't get a look in at Super level. What about Iese Leota, runner up in the medal and described on air by Brett Papworth as one of the best centres running around and better than some with Super contracts, yet I bet they don't even know his name at Tahs HQ. I've said it before on other threads, the mystical 3rd tier exists, it's in the Sydney, Brisbane and to an extent Canberra grade comps. The ARU just needs to wake up and support it with some serios resources.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Absolutely spot on ILTW. The development structure in this country is seriously flawed. We tell prodigious 16 year olds they are superstars and put them in Gold programs and Academies where all they do is train and play each other and we end up with a result like the World Under 19's last year. Sure, identify a 16 year old and tell him to finish his school/junior career, play Colts and make grade and then pull him into the development structure. The prop you referred to was easily handled by blokes much his own age the three times I saw him play last year, yet he gets called into the Tahs?? Hamish Angus deserved the Catchpole Medal, yet can't get a look in at Super level. What about Iese Leota, runner up in the medal and described on air by Brett Papworth as one of the best centres running around and better than some with Super contracts, yet I bet they don't even know his name at Tahs HQ. I've said it before on other threads, the mystical 3rd tier exists, it's in the Sydney, Brisbane and to an extent Canberra grade comps. The ARU just needs to wake up and support it with some serios resources.

The only note of caution I would sound (unlike me I know) is that the 16, 17 and 18 year olds deserve their moment in the sun as Oz schoolboys or whatever and it is by no means ASRFU's concern as to how selection at that level is viewed by the ARU.
It is the ARU's (and I mean by this whoever at the ARU scouts these kids) problem that this seems to be (a) the only source of talent other than league, and (b) the age at which the decision is made.

 

[Blackers13]

The only note of caution I would sound (unlike me I know) is that the 16, 17 and 18 year olds deserve their moment in the sun as Oz schoolboys or whatever and it is by no means ASRFU's concern as to how selection at that level is viewed by the ARU.
It is the ARU's (and I mean by this whoever at the ARU scouts these kids) problem that this seems to be (a) the only source of talent other than league, and (b) the age at which the decision is made.

You missed my point. I agree, if you make rep sides as a schoolboy or state rep congratulations and god bless ya. My issue is with the tossers who believe that's where our future talent starts and ends from a super and international perspective. Pick the cream from the Premier comps to move to super and beyond and forget the current über kinder policy that seems to pervade Rugby at present. If you think I'm wrong, how well is our current strategy working?

 

[no9]

Either that, or it demonstrates that if you do not make it at schoolboy level then you are finished.
Have a look at the 7's side. If you could not field a team from the SS that would flog these kids, then I would give up.
If you are not an early physical developer and make the state 16's side, or you do not go to a GPS School. it is just about all over as far as rep footie as an adult is concerned.
Look at who has been invited to join the tah's in the off season.Schoolboys and failed mungoes.They also have a prop who finished the year in 3rd grade.How does that work?
The guy awarded best and fairest in the SS last year is a 10, who was dropped from the 7's program and is obviously not considered as worthy of a look by the Tahs.BTW he was neither a 16 yo prodigy nor a GPS product, IIRC.

I fully agree with the points made and believe it is a policy that has seen the demise of our ability to consistently compete at the highest level. Yes, if everything falls into place we can draw a game with NZ or win in the 81st minute but they and SA are a country mile ahead of us and going further away.

The ARU and NSWRU have defaulted all responsibility for the growth and development of talent within the game at junior level over to the school system (which has its own political needs and bias) or into the hands of a couple of annointed gurus whose existence is dependant on players (identified at the ridiculous age of 14 or 15 and being herded into training camps and told they are elite) seen to have continuing success on the pathway (a term I've grown to hate).

This means the same names continually get put forward for selection even though they have fallen behind others whose reputation is less high profile but whose ability is greater. The U'20's debacle is just the tip of the iceberg. The net is far too narrow when looking for talent to start with as most who end up in the Gold squads are already at GPS/CAS schools and receiving high level coaching. If we must have these squads at least offer the opportunity to those who need it most. But that might mean having to travel past Kings School into the dark west?

David Horowitz straight into Waratahs? See last para of this article:

http://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby-...fter-knee-injury/story-fndpt9s1-1226570298215

So, is another schoolboy ready for S15/Shute Shield now or a better alternative than say,Hamish Angus? Right now I doubt it but who knows what could happen if he was given the time to develop physically and mentally by playing amongst his own age for a season or two and learning to dominate games and results with his talents,

No, instead he'll be introduced into the cauldron of profesional rugby, due possibly to the ego's of some within the rugby hierarchy who persist with this flawed policy of sink or swim. Kurtley Beale, perhaps our most talented schoolboy since the Ella's, by his own admission has said he was lucky to survive through the first five years out of high school due to an over inflated opinion of himself due to the smoke that had been blown up his backside by officials catering to his every whim. That he survived this period is more credit to him than those who catapulted him in so early and under prepared.

I have met Dave Horwitz through rugby involvement and he is a likeable, well mannered amd talented young player who I hope enjoys a long rugby career. However, I was still taken aback when in 2011 he attained Aust Schoolls representation on the back of 1 or 2 school first XV games and the NSW school trials for GPS. I was actually suprised he played for GPS firsts, not neccessarily because of talent but from limited experience as a No10 at that level. Unfortunately he was injured and played limited rugby for the remainder of the seaon.

Of course, due to 2011 selection he was guaranteed selection in the association teams and was duly picked only to be left out of the Aust Schools team that toured NZ in 2012. He was then rushed into the NSW U'19's side that played QLD late in the season although clubs were told only players from the 2012 colt's competition were eligible.

These inconsistencies lead me to think that someone is again pushing from within when others may still feel he needs more time. I've also noted that Tom Kingstons name is not prominent on the selection radar after being rushed from school to Waratah 2 years back as the next great hope but Folau is big business isn't he.

Even now many of last years Aust Schools players are being told to go straight into grade instead of Colts if they want to be considered at the next level. Unless of course you are at Sydney Uni. This kind of narrow minded stupidity only teaches them how to survive and can have an adverse effect on their confidence. The Mark Ella's and players of such stature are rare gems that come already polished while most others need the time to grow the belief and trust withinin themselves to take on the best in the world and be able to beat them not just survive the contest. Perhaps more constant losses to powerhouses such as Samoa and Scotland will bring a revision of how poor Australian rugby is structured currently.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

You missed my point. I agree, if you make rep sides as a schoolboy or state rep congratulations and god bless ya. My issue is with the tossers who believe that's where our future talent starts and ends from a super and international perspective. Pick the cream from the Premier comps to move to super and beyond and forget the current über kinder policy that seems to pervade Rugby at present. If you think I'm wrong, how well is our current strategy working?

No i got that point - I wanted to make the point that the ARU's talent spotting policy is flawed at a most fundamental level: they rely on the australian schools rep system without recognising that all that system is doing is rewarding the 16, 17 and 18 year olds that the teachers involved believe are the best 16, 17 and 18 year olds.
The schools rep system does not pick these kids hoping, believing or predicting that they will be s15 (or above) players as adults - thats not their job or their purpose.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I fully agree with the points made and believe it is a policy that has seen the demise of our ability to consistently compete at the highest level. Yes, if everything falls into place we can draw a game with NZ or win in the 81st minute but they and SA are a country mile ahead of us and going further away.

The ARU and NSWRU have defaulted all responsibility for the growth and development of talent within the game at junior level over to the school system (which has its own political needs and bias) or into the hands of a couple of annointed gurus whose existence is dependant on players (identified at the ridiculous age of 14 or 15 and being herded into training camps and told they are elite) seen to have continuing success on the pathway (a term I've grown to hate).

This means the same names continually get put forward for selection even though they have fallen behind others whose reputation is less high profile but whose ability is greater. The U'20's debacle is just the tip of the iceberg. The net is far too narrow when looking for talent to start with as most who end up in the Gold squads are already at GPS/CAS schools and receiving high level coaching. If we must have these squads at least offer the opportunity to those who need it most. But that might mean having to travel past Kings School into the dark west?



So, is another schoolboy ready for S15/Shute Shield now or a better alternative than say,Hamish Angus? Right now I doubt it but who knows what could happen if he was given the time to develop physically and mentally by playing amongst his own age for a season or two and learning to dominate games and results with his talents,

No, instead he'll be introduced into the cauldron of profesional rugby, due possibly to the ego's of some within the rugby hierarchy who persist with this flawed policy of sink or swim. Kurtley Beale, perhaps our most talented schoolboy since the Ella's, by his own admission has said he was lucky to survive through the first five years out of high school due to an over inflated opinion of himself due to the smoke that had been blown up his backside by officials catering to his every whim. That he survived this period is more credit to him than those who catapulted him in so early and under prepared.

I have met Dave Horwitz through rugby involvement and he is a likeable, well mannered amd talented young player who I hope enjoys a long rugby career. However, I was still taken aback when in 2011 he attained Aust Schoolls representation on the back of 1 or 2 school first XV games and the NSW school trials for GPS. I was actually suprised he played for GPS firsts, not neccessarily because of talent but from limited experience as a No10 at that level. Unfortunately he was injured and played limited rugby for the remainder of the seaon.

Of course, due to 2011 selection he was guaranteed selection in the association teams and was duly picked only to be left out of the Aust Schools team that toured NZ in 2012. He was then rushed into the NSW U'19's side that played QLD late in the season although clubs were told only players from the 2012 colt's competition were eligible.

These inconsistencies lead me to think that someone is again pushing from within when others may still feel he needs more time. I've also noted that Tom Kingstons name is not prominent on the selection radar after being rushed from school to Waratah 2 years back as the next great hope but Folau is big business isn't he.

Even now many of last years Aust Schools players are being told to go straight into grade instead of Colts if they want to be considered at the next level. Unless of course you are at Sydney Uni. This kind of narrow minded stupidity only teaches them how to survive and can have an adverse effect on their confidence. The Mark Ella's and players of such stature are rare gems that come already polished while most others need the time to grow the belief and trust withinin themselves to take on the best in the world and be able to beat them not just survive the contest. Perhaps more constant losses to powerhouses such as Samoa and Scotland will bring a revision of how poor Australian rugby is structured currently.

Well put.
How about no s 15 side being allowed to sign a kid who has not played at least 1 season of club, be it grade or colts?

 

[pine cone 3]

Well put.
How about no s 15 side being allowed to sign a kid who has not played at least 1 season of club, be it grade or colts?

Absolutely, Why not? Ah but then this may shift the balance of power away from the previously mentioned guru's and may jeapordise their employment, which is working so well in the current format, not. Decision makers don't like having decisions made on them.

Others will have you believe this will create a mass exodus of talent to league. Who cares? Reward the true believers and you may just develop a culture again in Australian rugby where playing for your nation is what its all about, not just marking time until you can cash in the francs in Paris or arrange a world title boxing payday on the back of your ability to goose step and to also be a goose at times.

By all means have junior level tournaments and representative sides but recognise them for what they are, a bunch of under developed, but currently talented kids who may go on to be reasonable players. Even with a multitude of resources thrown at them many will still amount to very little success at senior level for a variety of reasons.. Stop cutting off the rugby nose to spite our face by continuing to ignore many talented players who weren't talent identified at kindergarten. Support the clubs and even the provinces to develop the talent as they provide a wider network of experience than the current 2 or 3 clowns running the circus and are dealing with the players at a time they are truly understanding the differences between schoolboy and senior rugby. Might cut costs too.

Perhaps once Warney has fixed cricket we could get him to give us a manifesto for rugby?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Others will have you believe this will create a mass exodus of talent to league. Who cares? Reward the true believers and you may just develop a culture again in Australian rugby where playing for your nation is what its all about, not just marking time until you can cash in the francs in Paris or arrange a world title boxing payday on the back of your ability to goose step and to also be a goose at times.

The reality seems to be that the kids who would play league in Toyota Cup go there anyway.
They come back when they dont cut it in "opens".
surely it would cost ARU/Tahs less to leave kids in shute shield (give them a program, test them every 3 weeks) than it costs to have last years Oz Schools wunderkind in the EPS...or whatever.

 

[pine cone 3]

The reality seems to be that the kids who would play league in Toyota Cup go there anyway.
They come back when they dont cut it in "opens".
surely it would cost ARU/Tahs less to leave kids in shute shield (give them a program, test them every 3 weeks) than it costs to have last years Oz Schools wunderkind in the EPS.or whatever.

Not to mention how much it pisses off and deflates those who stay loyal when a failed mungo rockstars back in 2 years later. Lets take last years Aust schools bunch for example, say Rorke (who is listed as a Sea Eagles NYC recruit) turns out to be a dud at league and he's back in a year and there is a kid who comes through this years bunch who shows the same promise at rugby. What then?

Professional sport is cut throat but you still get a choice, so for me it's" we'll call you if we need you" to Mr Rorke (off to clubland) and the new kid gets the development and opportunity for staying loyal. This also might take away some of the "league are gunna give us this if we go" mentality. Kids will soon get the message that you aren't indispensable and that you are yesterdays news very quickly.

Why not 5 provincial academies where numerous players could all get development and let time determine who is best and if some unknown pops up in Colts or clubland then he can be invited in also. Or is it a case of the Guru's believing they are the only ones worthy of coaching our young talent and if so why not apply for a font line job and show the world your coaching
capabilities.

From the clowns running the circus, I'd like to know what the benefit of centralising and minimising the academy squads into a single entity is for, other than not spending funds. Lets just say that for the next 5 years we happen to have 5 x No6's who are of the highest order. Justify to me how you have 5 guys in the 1 position in an academy at the one time or is it a case of guys worthy then missing out?. Dombkins or Dempsey? On what I've seen I'd take Dombkins, but things may be different in 3=4 years time if they stay patient and learn to be the best instead of just maintaining a place in the team. Dombkins played Colts for a year to make the subtle adjustments required where as I'm told Dempsey is headed straight to grade. Time will tell which strategy was the correct one.

 

[rugbyscribe]

The ARU and NSWRU have defaulted all responsibility for the growth and development of talent within the game at junior level over to the school system (which has its own political needs and bias) or into the hands of a couple of annointed gurus whose existence is dependant on players (identified at the ridiculous age of 14 or 15 and being herded into training camps and told they are elite) seen to have continuing success on the pathway (a term I've grown to hate).

This means the same names continually get put forward for selection even though they have fallen behind others whose reputation is less high profile but whose ability is greater. The U'20's debacle is just the tip of the iceberg. The net is far too narrow when looking for talent to start with as most who end up in the Gold squads are already at GPS/CAS schools and receiving high level coaching. If we must have these squads at least offer the opportunity to those who need it most. But that might mean having to travel past Kings School into the dark west?

The early timing of the school rep games adds to this farce. The GPS, CAS, CHS, CCC, ISA rep teams are chosen far too early in the season. In the case of GPS its after the 2nd or 3rd round and CAS is not much later. CHS have a bigger lead in time to their rep selections but the reality is that the NSW Schools 1 & 2 sides to contest the National Championships are chosen the weekend after the GPS/CAS/CHS etc games. So we then have a situation where the rep teams for the various school comps and the NSW teams are chosen after only 20% to 30% of the school comp games have been played! It begs the question about the criteria on which the rep selections are made. It certainly can't be playing performances in the current year's schools competitions but on previously identified selections. Consequently boys whose talent may emerge over the course of a school competition season are often deprived of representative honours.

 

[no9]

The early timing of the school rep games adds to this farce. The GPS, CAS, CHS, CCC, ISA rep teams are chosen far too early in the season. In the case of GPS its after the 2nd or 3rd round and CAS is not much later. CHS have a bigger lead in time to their rep selections but the reality is that the NSW Schools 1 & 2 sides to contest the National Championships are chosen the weekend after the GPS/CAS/CHS etc games. So we then have a situation where the rep teams for the various school comps and the NSW teams are chosen after only 20% to 30% of the school comp games have been played! It begs the question about the criteria on which the rep selections are made. It certainly can't be playing performances in the current year's schools competitions but on previously identified selections. Consequently boys whose talent may emerge over the course of a school competition season are often deprived of representative honours.

Yep, they've just about made a bird of it, which is why it's ridiculous to put so much faith into the hands of a couple of teachers opinions. They are currently by default Australian Wallaby selectors.

 

[PJB81]

Market forces prevailing?

Have the other Clubs colts programmes caught up, or will the clubs benefit from Uni programme graduates (albeit possibly unhappy ones) rocking up and lifting the standards at the receiving clubs because of their experience and expectations gained from the Uni programme.

Meanwhile, Uni get a new bunch of raw recruits to work on. Seems like a real win-win situation with some credit to go to Uni for raising the standards across the board.

Alternately, some players may actually not be as good as they think they are, and they don't like the reality that they may be forced to confront at Uni, where they aren't treated like Rugby Royalty and fawned over by sycophantic and vicarious Coaches, Masters, Parents, and Old Boys as they were when they were in the 1st XV in Year 12. Check out the number of posts in the Sydney Colts 2012 thread compared to the GPS 2012, ISA 2012, or CAS 2012 threads.

Credit where it is due as well please. I know of several boys at Uni that were not Aust (or NSW) Schoolboy rep players but they have worked diligently within the Uni programme and have consequently gained and retained Colts 1's and Grade positions over some players who have much better schoolboy rep pedigrees. Some players when released from the Schoolboy system struggle with the transition from 1st XV schoolboy star to Colts, and are unable to maintain their training disciplines, and form outside the School pressure cooker environment.

Maybe some impatient former Schoolboy Rep darlings need some HTFU cream.

Edit: Grammar :".better much schoolboy rep pedigrees.." to ".much better schoolboy rep pedigrees."

As a former 2ndXV player at a CAS school in the very late 90's i agree with you 100% i was over looked for a 1stxv position as it appeared that the guy who took the position ( a mate of mine) his parents were very close with the 1st XV coach after leaving school we both headed to our local club and by the end of the season i was playing 2nd Grade while he was languishing in 3xv Colts. He since stopped playing and i went on to play over 150 1st xv games at 2 clubs.

 

[Tah and feathered]

I know this is not relevant too this thread but there is no CHS thread
Does anyone know when the CHS trials are on and where.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The anointed prodigiously talented 16 year olds and their self preservation masters in "Manus Koala club" as some have referred to the NGS/JGS programs run by the ARU HPU don't seem to be doing too bad a job.

Of late we have had more than parity with the Darkness Schoolboys.

It seems that there are failings in the immediate post school years leading up to U20 (Jnr RWC) and at academy levels where the transition to grade/professional footy, through Colts could be better managed.

 

[no9]

The anointed prodigiously talented 16 year olds and their self preservation masters in "Manus Koala club" as some have referred to the NGS/JGS programs run by the ARU HPU don't seem to be doing too bad a job.

Of late we have had more than parity with the Darkness Schoolboys.

While a win against the Darth Vaders in anything lately is to be savoured I disagree with your analogy about Manu's Koala club. It is the reason we can't transition to senior level success because of the skewed vision it creates in its cohort.

The "I'm 16 and I have a birthright to Wallaby selection, get me a manager now,excuse me you want me to play colts and prove myself? haven't you read my portfolio and by the way the Dragons and Eels want to do coffee with me so hurry up" mentality is what causes the damage. Yep, I've experienced most of these responses when in different club positions.

Give anyone more than what they deserve before they have eared it and you risk the outcomes we are now getting.

Just give them some minor guidance and encouragement until they (and the parents) are mature enough to be humble in chasing the ambition that any talent at 20 years plus can still achieve

 

[Inside Shoulder]

A good line on how the process skews later rugby life is to look at oz super 15 halfbacks:
McKibbin converted backrower from what I gather;
Force = kiwi
Hart = kiwi
Pretorius (2012) - saffer
Phipps - 3rd XV @ school
Brumbies have a back up saffer
Burgess 2nd Xv @ school

and there's 2 or 3 oz schools halves every year!
so there should be 20 or 30 running around up to age 28 who have played oz schools and yet half back is our weakest position (IMHO).

 

[rugbyscribe]

A good line on how the process skews later rugby life is to look at oz super 15 halfbacks:
McKibbin converted backrower from what I gather;
Force = kiwi
Hart = kiwi
Pretorius (2012) - saffer
Phipps - 3rd XV @ school
Brumbies have a back up saffer
Burgess 2nd Xv @ school

and there's 2 or 3 oz schools halves every year!
so there should be 20 or 30 running around up to age 28 who have played oz schools and yet half back is our weakest position (IMHO).

You are right about Burgess but I recall Phipps playing for Kings firsts against Joeys in 2007 or 2008

 

[rugbyscribe]

The anointed prodigiously talented 16 year olds and their self preservation masters in "Manus Koala club" as some have referred to the NGS/JGS programs run by the ARU HPU don't seem to be doing too bad a job.

Of late we have had more than parity with the Darkness Schoolboys.

It seems that there are failings in the immediate post school years leading up to U20 (Jnr RWC) and at academy levels where the transition to grade/professional footy, through Colts could be better managed.

From what I've heard Manu isn't involved in the JGS with his time being taken up on the NGS squad which is understandable given that they train 3 afternoons a week. You're right about the failings post school years. For 1st XV boys its either an academy spot if deemed good enough or club colts playing against older boys as well as their own age group. Perhaps the way forward is to have post school U19, U20 & U21 comps at club level with only one team in each age group per club which would spread the talent around rather than it gravitating to just a couple of Shute Shield clubs?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Perhaps the way forward is to have post school U19, U20 & U21 comps at club level with only one team in each age group per club which would spread the talent around rather than it gravitating to just a couple of Shute Shield clubs?

I like that idea - keeps the kids in the game: a lot can happen in those 3 years