Where to for Twiggy Rugby?

[Aurelius]

To have only one oz side against say 5 to 7 Asia pacific non oz sides would be going down same problems as super rugby in not enough oz games.

All the other stuff of involving Asia pacific teams time zone friendly and with better entertainment focused product fantastic and yes also addresses other problems of super rugby but you would be kidding yourself if only one oz side in the competition would be what twiggy or wa rugby fans would want or support long term.

For my mind yes super rugby is dead and we have to be working to model that involves collaboration between twiggy and RA that incorporates of course first and foremost the western force but other oz sides.

Got to repair the bridge I get that - but twiggy’s money will ensure wa interests would be first and foremost protected but the better solution for all has to be western force playing both other oz sides and key Asia pacific sides.

The best way forward for rugby across the country and for all concerned has to be for twiggy’s team and RA working together.




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The problem is that everything that's been suggested here is all variations on a theme - basically, a Super Rugby retread with the Asia-Pacific replacing South Africa. Considering how that worked out for us last time, it's not really going to get us excited again, especially since we'd be dealing again either with the current RA administration, or with replacements who've been appointed from the same cliques.

Forget all this talk about bridge-building. If the rest of Australia wants into WSR once Super Rugby goes under, there's only one way I can see it working. Australian sides should enter as their own entities, and RA should have absolutely nothing to do with them. Let them run the Wallabies, fund the grassroots, attend soirees in London, and do whatever else it is they get paid to do. As for any new competition, let franchises run themselves, and better yet, bid to enter like the new A-League consortiums have to. Neither RA nor any of the other franchises who couldn't wait to pick the bones of our carcass should have any right, or feel any entitlement, to enter WSR just because now that it's convenient for them, they've discovered that we're "fellow Australians" after all.

 

[wamberal]

Without in any way wanting to start World War Three, may I point out that rugby in Australia, in all its forms, is under the overall jurisdiction of RA nationally, and WR (World Rugby) at the global level.


If Twiggy wants to start a competition playing a rebel sport, he is totally free to do so. Good luck to him. Unless it is authorised by RA, it won't be rugby, that's all.


Maybe he has deep enough pockets, and is surrounded by enough talent, and creativity, to come up with a competition that is so attractive that it eventually spreads its reach. Maybe he will take over Australian rugby.


I have bought my popcorn, and will watch with great interest.

 

[dru]

^^^Auelius

I suspect we are a long way from what you are suggesting, so you probably pack away the indignation. An interest from fans in the east (count me in that cohort) does not make an interest from RA or NSWRU/QRU.

Fans here looking at potential alternate futures will obviously think about Twiggy and his support. Major error that ARU didnt do this as well, but I suspect they will put their gambling chips in with NZ.

I'm not at all saying it is a preferable scenario, just a more likely one.

 

[wamberal]

There are some good reasons that it is a more likely scenario. I have tried to spell out why, on the Twiggy thread. No offence intended, there is no simple solution that I can see, unless a lot of humble pie is eaten. By all parties. Which seems a bit unlikely to me.

 

[Aurelius]

^^^Auelius

I suspect we are a long way from what you are suggesting, so you probably pack away the indignation. An interest from fans in the east (count me in that cohort) does not make an interest from RA or NSWRU/QRU.

Fans here looking at potential alternate futures will obviously think about Twiggy and his support. Major error that ARU didnt do this as well, but I suspect they will put their gambling chips in with NZ.

I'm not at all saying it is a preferable scenario, just a more likely one.

No indignation, dru. Truth to tell, I'm not really passionate enough about rugby any more to feel any indignation.

I suppose you could say I've moved into the "acceptance" stage, although in all honesty I've probably been there since late last year.

All I'm saying though, is that people shouldn't reflexively assume that WA fans will be eager to re-enter competition with the rest of Australia, especially if that means dealing with RA. And regardless of what happens with WSR, I genuinely think privately-owned and run franchises has to be the way forward. The business-as-usual approach just won't cut it.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Just postulating, but if one of the Aus Super franchises wanted, say at the end of 2018, to walk away from RA and tie up with the IPRC, would they be able to do so? And if so, where would that leave RA with their contract with SANZAAR or Foxtel to field 4 teams in Super Rugby from this country?

 

[kiap]

Just postulating, but if one of the Aus Super franchises wanted, say at the end of 2018, to walk away from RA and tie up with the IPRC, would they be able to do so?

I doubt they could.

Not for 2019, anyway.

But that's not counting the case of a franchise folding and returning its licence.

Would be a similar situation to that of Force (albeit by a different route). Who's to say that another team couldn't be brought back in a similar way?

And if so, where would that leave RA with their contract with SANZAAR or Foxtel to field 4 teams in Super Rugby from this country?

I'd say RA (or an associated 3rd party) would have to stump up the dollars to field a team for the duration of the deal, even if it took them to the wire.

RA have not done their last Super team bailout IMO.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I doubt they could.

Not for 2019, anyway.

But that's not counting the case of a franchise folding and returning its licence.

Would be a similar situation to that of Force (albeit by a different route). Who's to say that another team couldn't be brought back in a similar way?


I'd say RA (or an associated 3rd party) would have to stump up the dollars to field a team for the duration of the deal, even if it took them to the wire.

RA have not done their last Super team bailout IMO.

Yeh reality is I think we will limp our way to end of 4 oz teams to end of next year and end of current broadcast contract but also agree might see a bailout or two to get that to that finish line.

I just can't see twiggy ball succeeding if they limit to just one side for all same reasons super rugby failed. I hope common sense prevails as if WA want a long term sustainable rugby model is to involve them being in a comp which has other oz sides irrrespective of whether other teams from other Asia pacific sides involved.

I guess it is a case of grab the popcorn and see what unfolds...


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[hoggy]

It is only an assumption at this stage, but I wonder what contacts twiggy has regards cashed up business people.

Currently we seem to have a bit of a Mexican stand off. But if Twiggy announces more capital coming into this comp via some Asian entrepreneur for example, that has to be a game changer.
Right now investment into Super rugby is like trying to sell shares in a Chernobyl townhouse project.

We all talk about NH private clubs, but just maybe ?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

It is only an assumption at this stage, but I wonder what contacts twiggy has regards cashed up business people.



Currently we seem to have a bit of a Mexican stand off. But if Twiggy announces more capital coming into this comp via some Asian entrepreneur for example, that has to be a game changer.

Right now investment into Super rugby is like trying to sell shares in a Chernobyl townhouse project.



We all talk about NH private clubs, but just maybe ?

Well if it creates a viable entertainment product with what shown so far that can create fan appeal etc then more rich billionaires in Asia might come to the fore wanting to be involved read: HR and China and possibly Singapore...but would take an appealing product / competition to entice that.....

 

[hoggy]

Well if it creates a viable entertainment product with what shown so far that can create fan appeal etc then more rich billionaires in Asia might come to the fore wanting to be involved read: HR and China and possibly Singapore.but would take an appealing product / competition to entice that...

Well that's my point, I just don't think it would take much more capital and all of a Super rugby starts looking like the Titanic.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I doubt they could.

Not for 2019, anyway.

But that's not counting the case of a franchise folding and returning its licence.

Would be a similar situation to that of Force (albeit by a different route). Who's to say that another team couldn't be brought back in a similar way?


I'd say RA (or an associated 3rd party) would have to stump up the dollars to field a team for the duration of the deal, even if it took them to the wire.

RA have not done their last Super team bailout IMO.

Just the biggest. Not enough coin left to stump up for a similar future situation.

 

[kiap]

Just the biggest. Not enough coin left to stump up for a similar future situation.

After $30m in extras from various sources was chewed up in Melbourne over recent years, I suppose you're right.

 

[ForceFan]

It seems that people have such short memories...........
Many of the ideas, hopes and dreams that have been expressed in this thread associated with "Twiggy Rugby" are more associated of what COULD have been IF the Western Force had NOT been axed.

Andrew Forrest's initial focus was to try and save the Western Force, with attempts to keep the team in Super Rugby.
In recognition that the justification for axing the Western Force were said to be financial he offered to:

• Sponsor the NRC ($0.5 Million per year);
• Underwrite any losses by the Western Force up to 2020; and
• Provide something like $65 Million for 'grass roots' rugby over the next 5 years.

These offers appear to have been provisional on the Western Force being kept in Super Rugby.
These offers were rejected by Rugby Australia and the Western Force was axed - for whatever the reason or justification.
These funds are now being directed elsewhere..............
Rugby Australia (RA) turned its back on the $$s offered by Andrew Forrest.
They obviously had other plans for funding the sport.

Rugby supporters in WA accept the axing of the Western Force as a fact of life. Some will never get over the decision.
It's interesting that the perceived savings from axing the Western Force appeared to have been consumed by keeping the Melbourne Rebels going.
I'm unaware of any additional funds being made available to the remaining 4 Super Rugby franchises or to grass roots rugby.
There has certainly been no flow of $$s to rugby in WA.

It was only AFTER the Western Force was axed that "Twiggy Rugby" (the IPRC and now WSR) became Andrew Forrest's focus as a way of maintaining a pathway to professional rugby in WA.
To this day the only pathway being offered by RA is an amateur NRC team in WA , to identify WA talent which can then move East to Super Rugby franchises and, if good enough, onto the Wallabies.

Minderoo then advised that it was willing to invest $150 Million over 3 years to help create a new competition called the IPRC in which the Western Force would be the only Australian team. Forrest's stated aim was that the IPRC would be self-sustaining after that 3 year period. Forrest also advised that he was hoping to be able to attract OS based Australian players back closer to home so that more were available for Wallabies selection.

The only feedback from RA was that it was only prepared to "support" the IPRC for a shorter period than these 3 years.
The focus changed from IPRC to WSR after changes to the timing of the proposed competition and obviously after discussions with World Rugby and Asia Rugby.

Contrary to public statements by RA's CEO, RA HAS NOT "been involved right across its specialist elements..in supporting World Series Rugby to make sure that RA shared its knowledge and to help Minderoo with a lot of the WSR product".
It appears that Minderoo has developed the "WSR product" despite the lack of support from RA.

Track back through the press releases - since August 2017, there appears to have been only 3 meetings between Minderoo and RA/Brett Robinson's team.

The Western Force player group has been built since early January 2018 and the current series of exhibition matches developed. 2018 is an interim year to re-build the Western Force brand in readiness for WSR in 2019. That's 4 months to get ready for the 1st game against Fiji. The coaches had <6 weeks to prepare the new squad. Most would acknowledge that they've done a fairly good job.

As, previously advised, WSR will need 3 years to become self-sustaining (that is the stated 'hope' of Andrew Forrest).
That means that the initial period for WSR is 2019 - 2021. Super Rugby will run through 2020.
There appears little likelihood of any other Aussie franchises joining WSR until after 2020.

The NRC is a RA product - if it needs "super-charging" (a word used by RA) then it is RA which needs to arrange for this to happen with new sponsors or whatever else is envisaged. Minderoo's efforts will be in WSR and helping to ensure a WA presence in the NRC (most likely with the Perth Spirit - which should include some of the Western Force player group).

I suggest that we should never underestimate the resolve of Andrew Forrest to test his intention to establish WSR for the benefit initially of rugby in WA.
He WILL provide at least the stated level of support for the initial 3 years. Who knows what will unfold over that time.
However, as soon as the other teams/countries are involved in WSR, commitments will have been made and need to be honoured.

I too hope that WSR eventually becomes part of the integrated rugby landscape in our region.

The bona fides of Andrew Forrest/Minderoo are very evident:

• Supporting RugbyWA;
• Supporting the Future Force development squad (for males and females);
• Supporting the Western Force and funding the 2018 exhibition and other games;
• Supporting the RugbyRoos outreach to schools and communities; and
• Developing rugby in the Indo-Pacific region (and possibly beyond).

By my calculation Minderoo is likely to spend $10-15 Million on rugby in WA in 2018.
In addition, FMG is sponsoring the local Club Rugby competition for the next 3 years.

The bona fides of RA regarding the re-intergration of WA have yet to be established as there appears to have been few discussions since August 2017.

Yes, RA has confirmed that players from the Western Force are available for Wallabies selection and confirming that WA could continue to have a team in the NRC.
But seriously - with the 3rd highest participation rate in Australia - should these ever have been in doubt?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

It seems that people have such short memories.....
Many of the ideas, hopes and dreams that have been expressed in this thread associated with "Twiggy Rugby" are more associated of what COULD have been IF the Western Force had NOT been axed.

Andrew Forrest's initial focus was to try and save the Western Force, with attempts to keep the team in Super Rugby.
In recognition that the justification for axing the Western Force were said to be financial he offered to:

• Sponsor the NRC ($0.5 Million per year);
• Underwrite any losses by the Western Force up to 2020; and
• Provide something like $65 Million for 'grass roots' rugby over the next 5 years.

These offers appear to have been provisional on the Western Force being kept in Super Rugby.
These offers were rejected by Rugby Australia and the Western Force was axed - for whatever the reason or justification.
These funds are now being directed elsewhere......
Rugby Australia (RA) turned its back on the $$s offered by Andrew Forrest.
They obviously had other plans for funding the sport.

Rugby supporters in WA accept the axing of the Western Force as a fact of life. Some will never get over the decision.
It's interesting that the perceived savings from axing the Western Force appeared to have been consumed by keeping the Melbourne Rebels going.
I'm unaware of any additional funds being made available to the remaining 4 Super Rugby franchises or to grass roots rugby.
There has certainly been no flow of $$s to rugby in WA.

It was only AFTER the Western Force was axed that "Twiggy Rugby" (the IPRC and now WSR) became Andrew Forrest's focus as a way of maintaining a pathway to professional rugby in WA.
To this day the only pathway being offered by RA is an amateur NRC team in WA , to identify WA talent which can then move East to Super Rugby franchises and, if good enough, onto the Wallabies.

Minderoo then advised that it was willing to invest $150 Million over 3 years to help create a new competition called the IPRC in which the Western Force would be the only Australian team. Forrest's stated aim was that the IPRC would be self-sustaining after that 3 year period. Forrest also advised that he was hoping to be able to attract OS based Australian players back closer to home so that more were available for Wallabies selection.

The only feedback from RA was that it was only prepared to "support" the IPRC for a shorter period than these 3 years.
The focus changed from IPRC to WSR after changes to the timing of the proposed competition and obviously after discussions with World Rugby and Asia Rugby.

Contrary to public statements by RA's CEO, RA HAS NOT "been involved right across its specialist elements..in supporting World Series Rugby to make sure that RA shared its knowledge and to help Minderoo with a lot of the WSR product".
It appears that Minderoo has developed the "WSR product" despite the lack of support from RA.

Track back through the press releases - since August 2017, there appears to have been only 3 meetings between Minderoo and RA/Brett Robinson's team.

The Western Force player group has been built since early January 2018 and the current series of exhibition matches developed. 2018 is an interim year to re-build the Western Force brand in readiness for WSR in 2019. That's 4 months to get ready for the 1st game against Fiji. The coaches had <6 weeks to prepare the new squad. Most would acknowledge that they've done a fairly good job.

As, previously advised, WSR will need 3 years to become self-sustaining (that is the stated 'hope' of Andrew Forrest).
That means that the initial period for WSR is 2019 - 2021. Super Rugby will run through 2020.
There appears little likelihood of any other Aussie franchises joining WSR until after 2020.

The NRC is a RA product - if it needs "super-charging" (a word used by RA) then it is RA which needs to arrange for this to happen with new sponsors or whatever else is envisaged. Minderoo's efforts will be in WSR and helping to ensure a WA presence in the NRC (most likely with the Perth Spirit - which should include some of the Western Force player group).

I suggest that we should never underestimate the resolve of Andrew Forrest to test his intention to establish WSR for the benefit initially of rugby in WA.
He WILL provide at least the stated level of support for the initial 3 years. Who knows what will unfold over that time.
However, as soon as the other teams/countries are involved in WSR, commitments will have been made and need to be honoured.

I too hope that WSR eventually becomes part of the integrated rugby landscape in our region.

The bona fides of Andrew Forrest/Minderoo are very evident:

• Supporting RugbyWA;
• Supporting the Future Force development squad (for males and females);
• Supporting the Western Force and funding the 2018 exhibition and other games;
• Supporting the RugbyRoos outreach to schools and communities; and
• Developing rugby in the Indo-Pacific region (and possibly beyond).

By my calculation Minderoo is likely to spend $10-15 Million on rugby in WA in 2018.
In addition, FMG is sponsoring the local Club Rugby competition for the next 3 years.

The bona fides of RA regarding the re-intergration of WA have yet to be established as there appears to have been few discussions since August 2017.

Yes, RA has confirmed that players from the Western Force are available for Wallabies selection and confirming that WA could continue to have a team in the NRC.
But seriously - with the 3rd highest participation rate in Australia - should these ever have been in doubt?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Lol no actually many have realised more so that with rapid decline of super rugby there is now very much mutually exclusive alignment between western force/ wa rugby and wider oz rugby / ra.

Twiggys bargaining power increased with further realisation super rugby dead. But twiggy supporters kidding themselves (and I am one) if they think they can establish a successful long term Asia pacific comp with only one oz side and very much doubt with twiggy was ever intent but rather to force ones hand to get better bargaining position for wa rugby which for most oz rugby fans suspect happy with.

Let’s stop the bs about wa rugby / twiggy ball and rest of oz rugby / ra not needing to collaborate for best outcome. And for twiggy supporters watch the al Baxter interview on skip tv on where to super rugby thread on where this is likely to head from here.

 

[dru]

Lol no actually many have realised more so that with rapid decline of super rugby there is now very much mutually exclusive alignment between western force/ wa rugby and wider oz rugby / ra.

Twiggys bargaining power increased with further realisation super rugby dead. But twiggy supporters kidding themselves (and I am one) if they think they can establish a successful long term Asia pacific comp with only one oz side and very much doubt with twiggy was ever intent but rather to force ones hand to get better bargaining position for wa rugby which for most oz rugby fans suspect happy with.

Let’s stop the bs about wa rugby / twiggy ball and rest of oz rugby / ra not needing to collaborate for best outcome. And for twiggy supporters watch the al Baxter interview on skip tv on where to super rugby thread on where this is likely to head from here.

I'm not so sure RN.

Seems to me that RA has a long way to go before they recognise that reality is slapping them in the face. Twig can't wait for them to grow some maturity.

I suspect we have some distance to go before this plays out. I suspect that FF (Folau Fainga'a)'s suggestion this will be 2021 is optimistic - bar some rugby calamity within super.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I'm not so sure RN.

Seems to me that RA has a long way to go before they recognise that reality is slapping them in the face. Twig can't wait for them to grow some maturity.

I suspect we have some distance to go before this plays out. I suspect that FF (Folau Fainga'a)'s suggestion this will be 2021 is optimistic - bar some rugby calamity within super.

RA really would have to be the dumbest board of all time if they think best way forward is super rugby mark 2 then collaboration with twiggy at this point. And equally twiggy very smart man that I have no doubt understands trump card now holds in face of ever dwindling wider oz rugby support at any levels for super rugby and indeed Rugby Australia if they continue to support super rugby as our salvation then alternative of collaboration with twiggy.

Too much banker brains on rugby Australia board to not see the reality and equally twiggy I imagine too astute and smart to not see how now can strike to collaborate with RA to get better outcome for wa rugby that involves wider oz professional rugby teams for force to compete against as well as other Asia pacific teams.

Clearer mutual benefits for all parties to collaborate then ever before so can’t see it not happening unless we really have the dumbest rugby board of any rugby nation....


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[Shiggins]

So seriously. I know I'm a force guy and that but super rugby is seriously dead. The crowds are just not there. It's over. Something needs to happen for next year. Is it twiggy ball? I'm not even trolling guys. Super rugby is dead for sure. It can't go into 2019.

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[Shiggins]

Sorry I'm wrong.

It's the death of rugby. I just saw the brumbies card for a kiss. Wow.

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