Where to for Super Rugby?

[Melchior]

Commitments to Cox - really - this is what held him back from accepting $5.7 million ?- you sweet naive creature - he flogged off his TGI Friday's stake two weeks later because he is broke ! - the ARU couldn't pay - so Cox backed away - end of story

Well Cox is nothing if not a businessman. Bought the Rebels for nothing debt free and gained control of the organisation in a deal that saw the imbeciles at the ARU continue to throw rivers of gold at an entity he controlled. When sponsorship, memberships and results went south in such a way that it was clear that when the money from the ARU was gone the Rebels would never break even let alone turn a profit and he would have needed to put his hand in his pocket and spend his own money he dropped the dead donkey and walked away. Just business. Only business.

 

[No4918]

Such a shame the Force cut has basically lead to next to no criticism around the sale of the Rebels.

 

[half]

One thing I have banged on about since hhhmmmm a long long time is we have seen the other codes expand and re market themselves over the last say 17 years, and we have kinda stood still. OK OK don't all yell Force and Rebels.

But you understand what I mean rugby has hardly set the world on fire with innovation and new ideas and developing plans in response to what other codes are doing.

We have been partly blessed over the last 12 to 18 months, with FFA in a kinda muddle as well. Infighting between the clubs and FFA with FIFA threatening to step in.

Where am I going with all this and how does it apply to a Super Rugby thread.

TWAS at a meeting tonight, with some local business folk. I was invited by a client.

Sitting at the table was a person who claimed to be well connected to FFA.

My client told me he was as well so unless this fellow was lying through his teeth he is close to FFA.

What this guy said was the clubs and FFA have reached a number of agreements, which he said where they have reached an agreement on funding, on the eventual control and timing of promotion & regulation, next year two expansion teams will be brought in Brisbane Strikers playing out of Ballymore and a Wollongong team[the Wollongong team if the Murdoch / Gordon bid succeeds for 10]

If this is true, and it does make kinda sense as FIFA are about to step unless FFA can resolve things, it means right at a time when we reducing teams and in an almost civil war. The code we are against for the number 3 title will be expanding and all holding hands again.


Don't know the answer or if what the guy said is true.

What I do know is the last thing we need is a three or four way spilt.

We have Super Rugby, we have the Shute Shield [its size and following and influence should not be ignored], we have the WA anti ARU mob, we have TF rugby. In all this we still seem years away from a national domestic competition.

League and AFL have funds, media and a very loyal following and both these codes seem united in a sense of purpose of where they are going. If FFA also put their house in order I would add cricket to this as well, while we engage in a civil war of dick measuring then it won't be good for rugby.

Cough cough cough. The guy seems to know what he was talking about, just read that Lowy likely to avoid removal by FIFA after agreement reached http://www.beaudeserttimes.com.au/s...emoval-by-fifa-after-agreement-reached/?cs=12 So if the rest of what he said was right then as we reduce the A-League will expand and all be on the same song sheet again.

 

[TOCC]

Such a shame the Force cut has basically lead to next to no criticism around the sale of the Rebels.

It's shrouded in secrecy, I still fail to see how the VRU can cover the operating losses of the Rebels without turning to the ARU like they did last time.. yet this time round, they are trying to make money on a lesser product

 

[half]

Nah that's bullshit.

SANZAAR and ARU chased the $$ of European broadcast rights, despite recommendations and reports stating that the structure required for that would damage the game.. that's not hindsight, thats chasing fools gold.

This

 

[KevinO]

It's shrouded in secrecy, I still fail to see how the VRU can cover the operating losses of the Rebels without turning to the ARU like they did last time.. yet this time round, they are trying to make money on a lesser product

Tim North did speak at the VRUgrand finals and said there would be a special VRU meeting to be held to inform fans about the future plans of the club.

He was at Rising on Saturday watching the game with some of the players not involved at the moment. Team rehab in Melbourne is still quite large.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'm not sure if you're 100% correct there with your assessment of the AFL's expansion into Sydney. It was pretty much a botched effort but they learned from the mistakes they made. They relocated a broke, struggling South Melbourne to Sydney and they continued to be broke and struggle. The AFL sold the club to private owners who brought in some big name players and splashed money around. Eventually the money ran out and it was back to struggle street for the Swans. After three wooden spoons in a row, shithouse home crowds, and losing millions the AFL stepped back in and took them over. Things can be turned around pretty quickly if the right resources and support (including a few unfair advantages) are put in place. The AFL learned how to do expansion after of ten or so years of bad decisions in Sydney. I think Gold Coast are now the only new club yet to play finals. The ARU watched all of this unfold right on their door step and learned absolutely nothing.

The final test of any of this and the only measureble factor is success or failure on the field.

Swans and Storm successful in end regardless of what mistakes may or may not have been made in the process.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'm not sure holding the NRL up as a paragon of expansion virtue is accurate. They also have a string of failed ventures, and really the Storm and Cowboys are the only two success stories. And even then you could say a big reason why the Storm worked was them systematically cheating the salary cap for a decade.

The AFL is fair enough, but they were blessed with tonnes of cash and a completely closed system in which they controlled every element. If players were drafted to the Gold Coast against their will (as many were) then tough luck, it's not like you can walk away to Japan or Europe.

I don't think it's fair to say the ARU half-arsed the Force expansion - they secured plenty of sponsorship (though some of it dodgy) and a host of top-line players - Pocock, Giteau, Mitchell, Sharpe, Cannon etc. And they were competitive in their early years.

They were hardly a warehouse that would never threaten the Eastern states. But then the Firepower money disappeared and there wasn't enough to fill the gap. The ARU didn't have the means to step in, and it all started to go downhill.

So while I don't disagree that the expansion teams were failed by the ARU, I think the early days of the Force actually worked. They got a good side up and running that wasn't just an add-on. Sadly they couldn't keep it going.
.

I'm not sure why you are bringing the Gold Coast into a discussion about expansion into non-traditional markets (or the Cowboys for that matter).

The Gold Coast is a sporting graveyard, but it's in a traditional rugby league state (as are the Cowboys).

You're entitled to your opinion on the merits of the expansion of different codes into non-traditional markets, but the only measureable criteria is on-field success. Swans and Storm v Rebels and Force. Not really a contest on any objective criteria.

EDIT: ARU had $31 million in the bank c2003 - maybe not as much as the AFL, but enough to do better than they have done.

 

[Quick Hands]

This pretty much completely ignores the state the VFL were in back in the 80s when they started their expansion. Half the clubs were broke, they didn't have a massive TV deal, and the league was dominated by a few rich clubs. They did have vision though. And a plan.

Two things which nobody could ever accuse the ARU of having.

 

[James Pettifer]

EDIT: ARU had $31 million in the bank c2003 - maybe not as much as the AFL, but enough to do better than they have done.

Could they have done much worse without actively trying to do worse?

 

[Strewthcobber]

Just for a bit of perspective, the AFL have spent $120m on GWS alone in the 6 years they have been in the comp

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[half]

Just for a bit of perspective, the AFL have spent $120m on GWS alone in the 6 years they have been in the comp

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Its more actually and its still bleeding money by the millions.

 

[Shaker]

It's shrouded in secrecy, I still fail to see how the VRU can cover the operating losses of the Rebels without turning to the ARU like they did last time.. yet this time round, they are trying to make money on a lesser product

Will be interesting to see the outcry if they do ask for coin.

 

[Quick Hands]

Could they have done much worse without actively trying to do worse?

Unlikely.

 

[Quick Hands]

Just for a bit of perspective, the AFL have spent $120m on GWS alone in the 6 years they have been in the comp

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Although no one is expecting them to operate on the same scale as the AFL, just employ similar strategic planning. There's no need in the short to medium term for example for the Force to do what the Swans have done in terms of the size of the operation. Having less money means that the ARU have to spend what they have wisely - even their most ardent fan (and there are a few still lurking on these threads) couldn't honestly advance this argument. Spending less in quantum terms doesn't necessarily mean that the impact of the funding can't be similar - just on a smaller scale. This is what hasn't occurred.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

Melbourne Storm "success" debate make me laugh. They have been extremely successful on the field but only by being a drain on the talent pool of players in the NRL. In the 20 years of the club they have fielded only two home grown Victorian players. Rebels and Force have far out done them.

 

[wamberal]

Melbourne Storm "success" debate make me laugh. They have been extremely successful on the field but only by being a drain on the talent pool of players in the NRL. In the 20 years of the club they have fielded only two home grown Victorian players. Rebels and Force have far out done them.

The Storm have also had the great good fortune to be coached by one of the all time greats. They also had the good sense to enshrine a strong culture that requires every player to study and qualify either for a trade, or a profession.

 

[Quick Hands]

Melbourne Storm "success" debate make me laugh. They have been extremely successful on the field but only by being a drain on the talent pool of players in the NRL. In the 20 years of the club they have fielded only two home grown Victorian players. Rebels and Force have far out done them.

Perception is reality. In the context of elite professional sporting clubs/franchises the metric for success is what occurs on the field.

The Swans still have more than half of their squad from Victoria or South Australia - on that basis they are also behind the Force BUT the reality is that the Swans are more successful in the areas which count.

 

[Quick Hands]

The Storm have also had the great good fortune to be coached by one of the all time greats. They also had the good sense to enshrine a strong culture that requires every player to study and qualify either for a trade, or a profession.

If anything they provide the model for rugby more than anything in AFL.

Some rugby types like to sneer at league (with some justification at times) and their culture, but as you say the Storm have really ingrained a culture which any sporting club/franchise would like to emulate for any number of reasons.

 

[Quick Hands]

Melbourne Storm "success" debate make me laugh. They have been extremely successful on the field but only by being a drain on the talent pool of players in the NRL. In the 20 years of the club they have fielded only two home grown Victorian players. Rebels and Force have far out done them.

I'll take Storm "failure" ahead of Force/Rebels "success" any day of the week and twice on Sundays.