Where to for Super Rugby?

[KOB1987]

But make no mistake, were so deep in the hole we're probably going to fall out of the top 6 teams internationally for the next 10 years.

No. That won't happen. It's our depth and development that's the issue, our top end will continue to be naturally talented and internationally competitive.

 

[stoff]

Blows my mind A league is outstripping Super rugby for popularity. Both these teams would lose to a 5th division Scottish side. Terrible, terrible stuff.

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Which two?


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[Dave Beat]

What I think is immaterial. I have already said what I would do in the extremely unlikely event that I took on the role of Australian Dictator of Rugby (which, by the way, is the only possible mechanism to change some aspects of the game - meaning, those aspects which are under our control).



Even if a Dictator were to be appointed, that would still leave 70% or more of the success or failure of the game in external hands.


The status quo will not be maintained. Things will get worse.


Does that make you happy?

You got my vote / support

 

[RedsHappy]

What I think is immaterial. I have already said what I would do in the extremely unlikely event that I took on the role of Australian Dictator of Rugby (which, by the way, is the only possible mechanism to change some aspects of the game - meaning, those aspects which are under our control).
Even if a Dictator were to be appointed, that would still leave 70% or more of the success or failure of the game in external hands.
The status quo will not be maintained. Things will get worse.
Does that make you happy?

No, but surely the most relevant point is that it keeps you in a state of perpetual miserableness, despair and pessimism re the state of code here, and that is clearly how you like it, perhaps even enjoy it.

Plenty of us have politely set out many detailed arguments that you have sought in counter to your view and that refute your total blanket of inexorable hand-wringing bleakness, but what is notable is that you never engage with them, you just walk on by regardless weeping in the dark and heading for hell.

 

[RedsHappy]

I can absolutely see the ARU paying out $6M, then being amazed that the VRU veto it!
Someone get a film crew in there & do a fly on the wall doco.
It will be hilarious!

A good way for the ARU to go broke, quickly and with suitably little fanfare.

 

[zer0]

I grew up and participated in many of the current pathways that have produced most of the current crop of players. Our training sessions no matter if it was school, clubs, representative or development camps were run around set play after set play, after set play, after set play, we get the idea.

Jesus. Really? When I was in high school in NZ (2004-2008) the theme throughout was that set plays were mostly pointless and that you get far more change from counterattacking off turnover ball.

TBH set play practice was largely just used to give the backs something else to do while the forwards went through their set piece drills. Once the forwards were done it was game simulation with the reserves acting as the opposition.

 

[Dave Beat]

He got a kick in the ass going overseas I would say. He was super lazy when he played here, I wouldn't say that is a fault of the system, more a fault of the man.

That is something we will never know.

But if you look at the 2 x Allamatoa boys.
The one over the ditch is progressing very nicely.

 

[Lee Enfield]

Which two?


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Whichever 2 of the 5 are chosen.

 

[kiap]

Whichever 2 of the 5 are chosen.

I believe the quote was about the A-League grand final.

With some exaggeration for effect.

 

[Gnostic]

Look at the players like Allalatoa, Digby, with the Crusaders.

Nandalo who was one of the best wingers in Soup after he couldnt progress here. There is plenty of potential off shore, and in a number of cases they are better players than some of the boys in Soup now.

I see that the Nandolo is the example picked out to prove the trend is not correct forgetting the other examples. Let me add a few more. At a time when Daniel Halangahu was in and out of the Tahs 10 jersey Dan Parkes went to Europe after not being able to get a gig in Tah land despite the often lamented whine that the Tahs just needed a decent 10. So Parkes goes overseas after topping the points scoring in the Shute for 2 years IIRC. The he goes onto play tests for Scotland, so it would be safe to presume that he could have played Super level. The around the same time now assistant coach Chris Malone went to France and became Top 14 top point scorer.

The point is how many examples must be given for it to become clear that Tahs talent identification and development has been broken for a long long time. At the time I just couldn't understand why those two in particular could never get a start, they were better kickers of the ball than anybody who ever started in front of them and the Tahs made plenty of statements about playing a ball in hand game but never actually did it or selected the best players available to play the actual game plan they were playing. Just plain incompetence and trying to be all things to all people and succeeding at nothing.

 

[cyclopath]

I see that the Nandolo is the example picked out to prove the trend is not correct forgetting the other examples. Let me add a few more. At a time when Daniel Halangahu was in and out of the Tahs 10 jersey Dan Parkes went to Europe after not being able to get a gig in Tah land despite the often lamented whine that the Tahs just needed a decent 10. So Parkes goes overseas after topping the points scoring in the Shute for 2 years IIRC. The he goes onto play tests for Scotland, so it would be safe to presume that he could have played Super level. The around the same time now assistant coach Chris Malone went to France and became Top 14 top point scorer.

The point is how many examples must be given for it to become clear that Tahs talent identification and development has been broken for a long long time. At the time I just couldn't understand why those two in particular could never get a start, they were better kickers of the ball than anybody who ever started in front of them and the Tahs made plenty of statements about playing a ball in hand game but never actually did it or selected the best players available to play the actual game plan they were playing. Just plain incompetence and trying to be all things to all people and succeeding at nothing.

The other franchises strangely overlooked them too. Maybe they're all hopeless? At the time, I struggle to recall a lot of people hollering for Malone in the Tahs, and maybe a few more for Parks.
As I said earlier, hindsight is generously over-applied whenever "the ones that got away" gets aired.
Mike Ala'alatoa? Does anyone know if he was "overlooked" or just thought an offer from the Crusaders was a far better temptation? Maybe he's more interested in being an All Black? Potentially.
Digby Ioane? Now? I'm sorry but I can't see where he obviously displaces a bunch of wingers with his history of injuries.
There will always be good players from NSW that end up going elsewhere, and some will go on to greater heights. So be it. I'm sure mistakes have been made, but it's easy to pick the ones that succeeded and say "I told you so" (not that you are specifically saying that here).

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^No Australian province wanted Michael Ala'atoa. Apparently we have so many talented tight head props in the country that there were at least 10 better than him. Funny that the Crusaders saw something that we didn't.

Or maybe that's the problem?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...r/news-story/1fbabd91a538820eb5586f68008dd1af

 

[Dave Beat]

The other franchises strangely overlooked them too. Maybe they're all hopeless? At the time, I struggle to recall a lot of people hollering for Malone in the Tahs, and maybe a few more for Parks.
As I said earlier, hindsight is generously over-applied whenever "the ones that got away" gets aired.
Mike Ala'alatoa? Does anyone know if he was "overlooked" or just thought an offer from the Crusaders was a far better temptation? Maybe he's more interested in being an All Black? Potentially.
Digby Ioane? Now? I'm sorry but I can't see where he obviously displaces a bunch of wingers with his history of injuries.
There will always be good players from NSW that end up going elsewhere, and some will go on to greater heights. So be it. I'm sure mistakes have been made, but it's easy to pick the ones that succeeded and say "I told you so" (not that you are specifically saying that here).

Guys i didnt s much raise this because of players missing out, I raised it becuase our depth has been questioned in regards to Soup and whether we can field 5 teams. We have some seriosly talented kids not playing in Australia now - they all come back and our talent is vastly different.
Money paid off shore is one thing.
But if it was purely money why isnt NZ loosing all their ITM players off shore?
I think our pathway is a political mess.

Mlone / Parkes / and others but we'vealso lost players near the peak of their powers overseas.
George Smith.
David Pocock.
Ben Mowen.
Luke Jones.
RIP Dan Vickerman.
I know we could add alot more names.

Just had another same train of though - Justin Harrison, is he doing allright coaching OS at present?

 

[wamberal]

The way things are going we are only able to retain our top 30 or so players, ie, those who are given Wallabies contracts. And there is no certainty that all of them would stay, look at Sitaleki Timani, for example.


Clearly New Zealanders see the All Black jersey as having more value than our players put on the Wallabies jersey.


Why is that? Being an ex-All Black does have a lot of benefits, some tangible, some intangible.

 

[Dave Beat]

The way things are going we are only able to retain our top 30 or so players, ie, those who are given Wallabies contracts. And there is no certainty that all of them would stay, look at Sitaleki Timani, for example.


Clearly New Zealanders see the All Black jersey as having more value than our players put on the Wallabies jersey.


Why is that? Being an ex-All Black does have a lot of benefits, some tangible, some intangible.

AB's Jersey
v
Wallabies Jersey
I agree the respective unions have created different levels of value over the years because they play their cards differently, and have different markets.
But if we look at the levels below the Soup - NZ have maintained a far stronger depth than we have. That depth we've lost lessons the competition for soup, and it has a flow on effect.

I'm sure we could both list Shute Shield players who we wish could have been given a crack but for various reasons didn't;
Auyoub.
Jarrod Barry.

 

[wamberal]

I think our front rowers have had a raw deal in recent years. Ayoub opted to play for Croatia.

Barry had his moments, for sure. John Grant was another one that might have progressed, but didn't.


I don't think that the value of the All Blacks jersey is a product of any concerted effort by the NZRFU. It is valuable because the whole community (or the vast majority of them) values it.


It is this way because it has always been this way. In contrast, the Waratahs were the Australian national team not all that many decades ago. And the international game was teetering on the edge of oblivion in the fifties, we were only saved by two inbound Fijian tours.


Periods of success for us at the national level have been the exception, not the rule. Contrast that with the All Blacks, who have dominated the world for more than a century.

 

[Braveheart81]

This is what I have never got, is it ARU that sets the pricing of tickets because of their ridiculous Wallabies ticketing?

Because for any of the Aussie teams at the moment, why don't they just follow something like the Bundesliga model where you can get a ticket for 5 euro. Hell, at this stage, why don't you just make general admission free or some nominal amount and maybe the Platinum & Golds 50% off. Get people in the gate for a few games and get some buzz and potentially future members.

Take the cuts from beers and food at the venue for short term revenue but hopefully grow that long term revenue by not overcharging for what, at the moment, isn't a great product.

Teams such as Bayern Munich own their stadium so they have greater capacity to set ticket prices. It would cost Australian teams money to have tickets below certain prices due to the costs applied to them.

They also don't get any cut of the food of beverage.

 

[Dave Beat]

I think our front rowers have had a raw deal in recent years. Ayoub opted to play for Croatia.

Barry had his moments, for sure. John Grant was another one that might have progressed, but didn't.


I don't think that the value of the All Blacks jersey is a product of any concerted effort by the NZRFU. It is valuable because the whole community (or the vast majority of them) values it.


It is this way because it has always been this way. In contrast, the Waratahs were the Australian national team not all that many decades ago. And the international game was teetering on the edge of oblivion in the fifties, we were only saved by two inbound Fijian tours.


Periods of success for us at the national level have been the exception, not the rule. Contrast that with the All Blacks, who have dominated the world for more than a century.

Agree again.
Difference between ARU (board) v Australian Rugby (the community).
Do we think the community valuers the ARU?
Maybe they need look for your post and adopt what you suggested, and do it repeatidly.

 

[wamberal]

Dave,


Things are very depressing for all of us. Sometimes they say that you have to hit the bottom before you can really come to grips with your problems, and get the guts to take the necessary medicine.


We can only hope.

 

[Dave Beat]

Dave,


Things are very depressing for all of us. Sometimes they say that you have to hit the bottom before you can really come to grips with your problems, and get the guts to take the necessary medicine.


We can only hope.

Agree again.

And they also say - work the hardest when your at the lowest, and it often magnifies the returns when your strong again.