Where to for Super Rugby?

[wamberal]

It's a pity, for once the Tahs stood up and played hard. But after the farcical scenes at the previous game, who could blame the supporters for staying away?

 

[half]

I have read a number of articles about other codes recently, NRL, AFL, Cricket, Netball & A-League who are all on expansion.

League is looking at both expanding the number of teams and a couple of Sydney clubs moved to new locations.

AFL is everywhere with new competition formats and on a continuous expansion course.

Cricket new competition formats, and increase season, add new overseas tournaments.

Netball looking to expand into more locations.

A-League currently has a detailed working paper about expansion, creation of a second division and promotion & regulation and all in operation within 5 years.

Rugby, less teams, less home games, at some point even the dumbest of the dumb, need to acknowledge what other codes are doing and that growing the player base, and spreading the word of the game is beyond the single most important thing they need to do.

I often look at our stakeholders and wonder aloud if they understand their roles in the greater scheme of things. What drove me to write this post was a report issued by the Victorian Football Federation essentially soccer's state body in Victoria. They did not worry about the state of the A-League, National sides, instead the developed systems and structures to add more junior players in an AFL heartland state. The end result of their endeavours was a 24% growth in player numbers to registered clubs last year with expected growth this year. Essentially the state body said our job is to grow the game in our state not get involved in national policies and politics.

Many cannot see how rugby can walk away from the golden chains held by Fox, and how we survive without the scraps Fox throw us. To me this is so short sighted as if we keep shrinking in time rugby will be so small that who will watch.

Before, commenting on why we should not compare ourselves to others, consider how AFL went through a revolution some time back. Cricket also has just passed some major internal issues. League is starting a major revolution on expansion of league at both a domestic level and Oceania level. Soccer is emerging from a brutal civil war and starting to get things together.

We still don't even talk of a National Domestic Competition because of the anticipated loss of revenue.

Australian rugby seems captive of its own laziness and incompetence and that without overseas money and dancing to the tune of the broadcast piper incapable of creative ideas in development of rugby other than how to hold out our begging bowel to our overseas broadcasters.

Maybe its time for rugby's own people revolution.

 

[Braveheart81]

Many cannot see how rugby can walk away from the golden chains held by Fox, and how we survive without the scraps Fox throw us. To me this is so short sighted as if we keep shrinking in time rugby will be so small that who will watch.

.

To do what though? Sit on a secondary FTA channel and get paid nothing or possibly pay for that privilege?

Based on the TV audiences of other sports outside of cricket, NRL and AFL it wouldn't appear that this drives viewers in any way.

 

[half]

To do what though? Sit on a secondary FTA channel and get paid nothing or possibly pay for that privilege?

Based on the TV audiences of other sports outside of cricket, NRL and AFL it wouldn't appear that this drives viewers in any way.

Reasonable question.

Before I answer, under our existing system, I don't see a lot of blue sky in the future. More a slow continual decline. Meaning part of my answer is the existing systems are failing and failing badly. Meaning we need to do something before we reach a point of insignificance.

My solution, expressed many times and explained in detail a number of times on this thread;- is a new system, based on the American franchise model used by all their major codes. IMO the latest of such models is the MLS model and again for reason previously outlined is the best of the models to apply to Australia rugby.

Without going over old ground, [you look up my previous posts on this if you want detail and links], the ARU licence an organisation lets call them the R-League.

The R-League then operate with independent owners to run under licence the Australian Domestic Competition.

Those wanting a team in the competition essentially fund the operating losses if they are incurred.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think we absolutely need to shake up what we are doing post 2020. I don't think Super 14 will be a good long term option unless we at the very least change what we are doing around the shortened season (by providing our teams more commercial opportunities i.e. more home games).

I don't see the point in leaving the only broadcaster who is genuinely willing to support the game for one that won't. It's pretty clear that there aren't hundreds of thousands of rugby fans who will start watching if only they have a FTA broadcast available.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I think we absolutely need to shake up what we are doing post 2020. I don't think Super 14 will be a good long term option unless we at the very least change what we are doing around the shortened season (by providing our teams more commercial opportunities i.e. more home games).

I don't see the point in leaving the only broadcaster who is genuinely willing to support the game for one that won't. It's pretty clear that there aren't hundreds of thousands of rugby fans who will start watching if only they have a FTA broadcast available.

But what would that shake up look like? As much as I'd like to see it I don't think it'll be a TT competition. GRR?

 

[half]

I think we absolutely need to shake up what we are doing post 2020. I don't think Super 14 will be a good long term option unless we at the very least change what we are doing around the shortened season (by providing our teams more commercial opportunities i.e. more home games).

I don't see the point in leaving the only broadcaster who is genuinely willing to support the game for one that won't. It's pretty clear that there aren't hundreds of thousands of rugby fans who will start watching if only they have a FTA broadcast available.

Who said we would leave Fox ??? genuine question?

What I said was the adopt an American franchise model, and suggested the MLS as the one that best suits Australian rugby.

In brief how it works, the governing body license [RA] license an organisation [say R-League] to run an operate a "National Domestic Competition". The R-League is owned by the clubs / teams playing in it, so revenue earned by the governing body is equally shared by the clubs / teams.

The new organisation we are calling the R-League then go to broadcasters including Fox offering their competition at an agree price.

Fox and maybe some others like Bar TV, pay and broadcast the game.

My assumption is the collective wisdom of a group of wealthy owners would have the collective knowledge and skills to sign broadcast deals.

As an aside, broadcasters may still broadcast other rugby competitions which can only be good in the long term, like Optus broadcast the EPL.

You seem to want to have all the answers with signed contracts in place before the change is made and thats impossible.

My assumption maybe foolish is that a group of wealthy business folk and their collective skills if they put their skills together would create a far better outcome for rugby than sitting back waiting and hoping our begging bowel will be filled overseas folk.

 

[half]

BH

This is a link to how the MLS model operates. This IMO is how we create a "National Domestic Competition"

https://medium.com/@isaac_krasny/unpacking-the-major-league-soccer-business-model-827f4b784bcd

 

[Braveheart81]

Who said we would leave Fox ??? genuine question?

I took this (and many of your previous posts) as being a pretty clear suggestion that we should.

Many cannot see how rugby can walk away from the golden chains held by Fox, and how we survive without the scraps Fox throw us. To me this is so short sighted as if we keep shrinking in time rugby will be so small that who will watch.

 

[half]

I took this (and many of your previous posts) as being a pretty clear suggestion that we should.

The current Fox arrangement is not in the best interest of Australian rugby. I believe this to be the case and we need to break from the control they have over many of the operating procedures we have.

We need as a code to develop a structure that will allow for expansion of rugby, grow the player base, and as a whole have the best interest of rugby at its core to achieve this. Our current structures do not met this criteria, moreover have Australian rugby in a steady death dive. A major part of this is the revenue deals we have in place with Fox, as the broadcast deal is what it is and many seem to think we cannot walk away from this deal as the loss of revenue would be such as to bankrupt rugby.

What I see is a structure badly in need of not an overhaul but semantic change.

If we are to survive we need lots of capital and lots of smarts neither of which RA or the State Unions have.

My suggestion is to use American franchise models, of which I think the best for Australia is the MLS model see above link.

These people will develop a National Domestic Competition and they will in turn sell broadcast rights. Fox may become the buyer.

But and the big but is Australian rugby is in control of its own future.

As I said above, we either continue to wait for the boat to sink, as it floats further offshore, or say damn it and try and swim to shore ourselves with the aid of our new mate.

While you admit, serious structural defects in our structure, you seem equally dismissive of alternatives where the current stakeholders don't remain in charge. What has lead us to this point is decades of miss management by multi levels within rugby not only RA or the ARU but the state bodies as well.

We have passed the point IMO were the State Unions & RA have either the financial and intercultural capacity to enable survival at near our current level. We need transformational change and a new way of thinking.

However I doubt what I want will ever come to pass, as those in power world over from many walks of life hold on to power as its basic human nature and only when the mob demand change does it happen. Aside from me a few others their is not the sound of revolution in the air.

I seem to be going over old ground I have been many times before and I guess people just don't see it as I do.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think Fox will support whatever we offer. The vast majority of the value for them is in the tests anyway.

I really don't think they are what are holding us back. Any compelling competition we are part of they will want.

I agree with you that we need some element of private equity to move away from the current situation where effectively not for profit organisations that are also trying to fund the grassroots are running the professional teams. Essentially we need to give people the opportunity to lose private money running teams because that is the only way to expand and really change what we're doing.

I don't think we can do it as a solely domestic competition though. We don't have the players or the audience to make it of a good enough standard. I am really hopeful stars will eventually align and we will be able to have a Trans Tasman comp with a Pacific team and an Asian team in the next few years. I really think that has to be the way forward.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I think Fox will support whatever we offer. The vast majority of the value for them is in the tests anyway.

I really don't think they are what are holding us back. Any compelling competition we are part of they will want.

I agree with you that we need some element of private equity to move away from the current situation where effectively not for profit organisations that are also trying to fund the grassroots are running the professional teams. Essentially we need to give people the opportunity to lose private money running teams because that is the only way to expand and really change what we're doing.

I don't think we can do it as a solely domestic competition though. We don't have the players or the audience to make it of a good enough standard. I am really hopeful stars will eventually align and we will be able to have a Trans Tasman comp with a Pacific team and an Asian team in the next few years. I really think that has to be the way forward.

The stars are very unlikely to align that way I'm afraid. I really cannot see the NZRU in particularly walking away from SA in the short to medium term. I actually think GRR may offer something compelling. It's being set up with a more business based approach.

I think it could offer Fox something different from what we've traditionally offer. If the 4 Super Rugby teams joined the mooted 8 GRR teams that would give the competition 12 teams. Home and away for 22 games all in friendly time zones.

 

[Joe King]

The stars are very unlikely to align that way I'm afraid. I really cannot see the NZRU in particularly walking away from SA in the short to medium term. I actually think GRR may offer something compelling. It's being set up with a more business based approach.

I think it could offer Fox something different from what we've traditionally offer. If the 4 Super Rugby teams joined the mooted 8 GRR teams that would give the competition 12 teams. Home and away for 22 games all in friendly time zones.

Are you essentially saying that if the NZRU don't want to leave SA, RA should plan to go it alone with GRR?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Are you essentially saying that if the NZRU don't want to leave SA, RA should plan to go it alone with GRR?

I think they should certainly look at it.

 

[Rebels3]

An article out today in the Australian about the franchises having issues with the reduced season from 2021 onwards.

It got me thinking how different are our clubs to what’s happening in Europe (where the club game is going from strength to strength) in relation to content.

Last season our clubs played the following amounts of games

Tahs 18
Rebs 16
Brum 16
Reds 16

Now compare this with some of the games on offer in the NH.

Leinster - 32
Saracens - 35
Glasgow - 28
Clermont - 33
Racing 92 - 36
Toulon - 34
Exeter - 36
Edinburgh - 29
Ulster - 28
Munster - 31
Connacht - 28

Now in some cases the amount of games are pretty extreme, however when you specifically compare this to a union in a similar situation to us (amount of teams, reliant on central funding) in Ireland the difference is stark. Last season Irish teams featured in 119 games from their 4 clubs, in Australia there was 66 times they featured in a game.

With the teams reducing in games to 13, it brings into question how can we possibly compete when teams in Europe are at best playing twice the amount of games and in some cases almost 3 times the amount. The same sort of question could be raised when looking at NRL clubs compared to our Super Rugby sides, some teams again will be providing twice the engagement opportunities to fans and for clubs to build stronger more recognizable brands and engage sponsors.

The conversation all week has been about poor Mack Mason not getting opportunities to play at that level, yet with only 13 matches when would he seriously get an opportunity.

It’s something I believe we need to look at, my perception is around 20 matches per team would be ideal.

There is plenty out there calling for less is more, however I am yet to be convinced in sport that might be the case. Minus the NFL there is very little, to no evidence it works. Even the NFL example is distorted because it works in collaboration with the highly commercialized college football which provides hundreds of fixtures every Saturday throughout the season, providing extreme levels of American football saturation across a 5month period. NRL, AFL, any football league, NBA, NHL, European rugby leagues, etc. are examples of strong performing leagues providing opportunities for fans to engage with their clubs.

Perhaps the SH domestic structure is broken because it continues to try and incorporate a T3 layer structure (NPC, Currie Cup, NRC)??? Not allowing the professional structure to grow. Maybe the T3 clubs should become the highest professional level?? I have my thoughts on it, be nice to see what others think.

Anyways that’s enough of my 1am ramblings.

 

[Highlander35]

I think it's KevinO who consistently pushes it but: less than 10 home games makes it virtually impossible to have meaningful fan engagement. The sheer randomness of opponents, byes and tours makes season narratives less easy to push as well. I mean, seriously, the Rebels have had 2 home games in 7 rounds so far. How can they market themselves to the more casual fans without the momentum to keep things going?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think everyone including RA realises we are doomed to irrelevancy and further shrinking our footprint in oz if we put all our eggs in super 14. Hence many including RA will be looking for alternatives but keeping a foot in the door in super 14 whilst seeks better commmercial alternatives that could supplement and even possibly replace super 14 round robin in the future. Certainly from a starting point the current interest and footprint for rugby in oz means we could not start with a domestic pro competition but one rather that involves pacific island, Asian (japan, hk etc) and of course nz teams that have more regional relevance and time zone friendly to enable ease to follow both home and AWAY games.

This is why close collaboration with GRR and support for League of Nations is so important for RA to explore opportunities to unlock and realise better long term options that have better commercial and funding models and most importantly offer less commercial and funding risks to RA.

 

[hoggy]

I think everyone including RA realises we are doomed to irrelevancy and further shrinking our footprint in oz if we put all our eggs in super 14. Hence many including RA will be looking for alternatives but keeping a foot in the door in super 14 whilst seeks better commmercial alternatives that could supplement and even possibly replace super 14 round robin in the future. Certainly from a starting point the current interest and footprint for rugby in oz means we could not start with a domestic pro competition but one rather that involves pacific island, Asian (japan, hk etc) and of course nz teams that have more regional relevance and time zone friendly to enable ease to follow both home and AWAY games.

This is why close collaboration with GRR and support for League of Nations is so important for RA to explore opportunities to unlock and realise better long term options that have better commercial and funding models and most importantly offer less commercial and funding risks to RA.

Beware the league of nations will solve everything thinking, we've sold test rugby to a broadcaster for 12 years, for what an extra 12/15 $million a year, remind you of anything.
Rugby's season goes from February to November, yet the Super rugby teams don't have enough product to engage fans.
The problem is we have so much content but to little, the old alcoholic 1 is to many and 100 is not enough.
All the league of nations will do is cement the continued decline it just locks in the status quo. Overall rugby is simply is to confusing to engage the casual fan.
People want to belong to something, all rugby is doing is shoving more salad onto the buffet when the customer wants meat, and they've already gone to the next Restaurant.

 

[Jamie]

I am a very passionate Tahs supporter however 6 home games a season is not going to cut it for me and hence I don't see myself renewing my membership, I have expressed my concerns already to the Tahs (And other franchises via SM) and I am yet to get a response.

Play Super Rugby round robin and then have all the Aus Super Rugby franchises play each other home and away plus Fiji Drua plus Force and maybe another team, there are enough wider squad players available so there is no player burnout, you capitalise on existing franchises and take Tahs games to North Sydney oval for instance or somewhere in the country if they need to.

Now I would definitely sign up for that even pay more for a membership, you get Super Rugby round robin which let's face it will be good AND you get a extra games via an NRC type comp featuring Aus Super Rugby sides.

 

[Bandar]

^ Too much common sense here to become reality unfortunately