Where to for Super Rugby?

[WorkingClassRugger]

They had something called the Australian Provincial Championship (APC) before they introduced the ARC in 2007. It was all the Australian Super 14 teams playing in a tournament after Super Rugby had finished. I think they only did it for one year.

As others have said, I wonder if something like that would be a good replacement for the current NRC: have the Australian Super Rugby teams + teams from GRR playing in a tournament after Super Rugby and GRR finish.

It would still tick the box for player development as all the test players would be out for most of the tournament. And there could be other potential advantages as well:

1. Club players might have more of an interest in stepping up because they would get to be directly involved with the Super Rugby teams and coaches, etc. The step to professionalism might seem a little more reachable: club to Super Rugby team, rather than club to NRC to Super Rugby.
2. It might even develop players better than the NRC does. Smaller pool of players, more competitive teams.
3. The Super Rugby and GRR teams benefit as they get more of a chance to develop and build for the following year: coaches get to directly control the trialing of new players and combinations in their existing structures, they can also build on existing combinations, and the teams can bring in a little more revenue to account for a shorter Super Rugby season from 2020 onwards.
4. It might be a little more popular than the current NRC since the tournament would be using more familure brand names. And in a sense, the Force get to come to the party again with the other Super Rugby teams.
5. SS clubs might be more accepting of the idea (or might be less able to resist the idea even if they wanted to). Clubs are perceived to be the third tier again directly beneath Super Rugby (and GRR).
6. This tournament might be better for test players to play in when they are out of the Wallabies and/or returning to form.
7. other ?

Downsides might include:

1. Fewer club players would be asked to step up to the next level as there would be fewer spots available.
2. Club rugby may have to rejig how their season runs.
3. other ?

I think several of those points in particular the downsides will depend on the overall make up of the competition. If GRR gets a 2nd Aus based team (which I think they should) then the question of opportunity is somewhat eased as opposed if it is just the current 4 Super Rugby + Force and Fiji.

I've been pushing this concept for many of the advantages you have highlighted. Combining teams from two professional competitions in another is an extension of that professionalism. Which should lead to an overall jump the the quality of the structure. Something the NRC was intended to achieve but for various reasons has only partially done so is that providing opportunity for emerging talent to test themselves against higher quality competition to evaluate where they are and their strengths and weaknesses.

There is a question of opportunity for club players which is one of the strengths behind the original NRC concept but which hasn't been the outcome in a number of cases. But this would be a better structure to sort out the contenders in a more cut throat environment.

Regarding branding. It should result in more interest from Rugby fans. As long as it's sold for what it is and that's professional Rugby. Part of the issue the NRC has always suffered from was the incessant labelling as being a 3rd Tier competition. Yes, technically that was true but if you're trying to sell something it's the worst thing you can do. The NRC has never been viewed as something that could be of commercial value in the eyes of the administration of the game. If such a structure as what we are talking about ever got up and running that cannot be the case. It absolutely has to be treated as a commercial venture. Something that will help that is the involvement of the Wallabies squad members. Assuming the Nations League is ratified and this structure was aligned alongside it the Nations League structure would run over 8 or so weeks (two weeks, break, two weeks, break, final round and for Aus/NZ 2nd Bled. Break). So there will be plenty of opportunity to have Wallaby squadies not involved in game day rosters to return to this structure and in the off weeks from the RC have the starters return as well.

It would also be an opportunity to spread the professional game around a bit more. The Tahs could use this as an opportunity to play more games in suburban and even regional centres with 5 extra (assuming it a 10 season) home games on top of the the 6-7 they'll have in Super Rugby from 2021. More games at the likes of Brookvale wouldn't go astray etc.

Finally, the clubs would be in a tough spot if they tried to complain about this competition. First, there should be too much overlap. Second, with the overlap a overall smaller number of players will be removed from the clubs. And third, with the more direct route many of the issues some players are now having with the NRC would be eliminated and the opportunity to be seen directly should be enhanced. The clubs trying to interfere with that would not be the message they would want to be sending.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I think we are heading down the road of a currie cup type competition with Oz teams from Super Rugby plus teams from GRR that do not have own pro comp's (so would exclude say Japan and NZ GRR sides but include other sides like Fiji, Samoa etc) as to my mind that is what Castle was alluding to with the fact that the 14 round robin super rugby comp means it would allow for other commercial products for Oz super rugby teams to be involved in.

I personally at this point see the benefit of having oz teams in Super Rugby and GRR ie.. foot in both camps and then bring together a shorter NRC type competition that runs after each of these comps' involving regional sides that don't have regional pro domestic comps to be involved in.

I imagine Argentina would then be able to involved in either MLR or the new South America rugby comp mooted to be started in next few years outside of Super Rugby.

When one looks at this you can see how important it is for WR (World Rugby), SANZAAR, GRR, national bodies and member sides/ nations to work together which seems to be happening with 4 steps forward 2 steps back.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I think we are heading down the road of a currie cup type competition with Oz teams from Super Rugby plus teams from GRR that do not have own pro comp's (so would exclude say Japan and NZ GRR sides but include other sides like Fiji, Samoa etc) as to my mind that is what Castle was alluding to with the fact that the 14 round robin super rugby comp means it would allow for other commercial products for Oz super rugby teams to be involved in.

I personally at this point see the benefit of having oz teams in Super Rugby and GRR ie.. foot in both camps and then bring together a shorter NRC type competition that runs after each of these comps' involving regional sides that don't have regional pro domestic comps to be involved in.

I imagine Argentina would then be able to involved in either MLR or the new South America rugby comp mooted to be started in next few years outside of Super Rugby.

When one looks at this you can see how important it is for WR (World Rugby), SANZAAR, GRR, national bodies and member sides/ nations to work together which seems to be happening with 4 steps forward 2 steps back.

Argentina are involved in the LAR as they'll be supplying two teams and many players in others across the competition. From day dot. I agree with your sentiment. I hate losing the Sunwolves as I actually enjoy watching them and found them a compelling team to compete with from an Aus conference point of view. I hope them pop up in some form or another in GRR. But I also think cutting Super Rugby back opens up other opportunities for Aus teams as does the arrival of GRR. We could do it a few different ways either with the 5 Aus + Fiji for 10 games home and away during the RC window or the 4 Aus Super Rugby teams + Force, Fiji, Samoa and another team from GRR for either a straight 7 or a one and a half round 10 game series again during the RC period.

I think it presents an opportunity to explore further commercial opportunities for both competitions. Which can only help in my opinion. Could open up the ability to engage more with the community by spreading games around more. An extra game at Brookvale etc. and a two or even three in the regions can only help.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

y

Argentina are involved in the LAR as they'll be supplying two teams and many players in others across the competition. From day dot. I agree with your sentiment. I hate losing the Sunwolves as I actually enjoy watching them and found them a compelling team to compete with from an Aus conference point of view. I hope them pop up in some form or another in GRR. But I also think cutting Super Rugby back opens up other opportunities for Aus teams as does the arrival of GRR. We could do it a few different ways either with the 5 Aus + Fiji for 10 games home and away during the RC window or the 4 Aus Super Rugby teams + Force, Fiji, Samoa and another team from GRR for either a straight 7 or a one and a half round 10 game series again during the RC period.



I think it presents an opportunity to explore further commercial opportunities for both competitions. Which can only help in my opinion. Could open up the ability to engage more with the community by spreading games around more. An extra game at Brookvale etc. and a two or even three in the regions can only help.

Yes WCR and that is how you even up the sides from Super Rugby and GRR that would compete in a NRC type comp post GRR and Super Rugby comp's during RC window as Super Rugby sides would be minus there test players and enable a more level playing field similar to what already happens with NRC already with the force. Hopefully with range of more pro sides and even adopting perhaps some of innovation from GRR for NRC type comp it could become more successful and hopefully in time equal to SA curry cup or nz mitre both in terms of commercial success and standard of rugby.

 

[Dan54]

Argentina are involved in the LAR as they'll be supplying two teams and many players in others across the competition. From day dot. I agree with your sentiment. I hate losing the Sunwolves as I actually enjoy watching them and found them a compelling team to compete with from an Aus conference point of view. I hope them pop up in some form or another in GRR. But I also think cutting Super Rugby back opens up other opportunities for Aus teams as does the arrival of GRR. We could do it a few different ways either with the 5 Aus + Fiji for 10 games home and away during the RC window or the 4 Aus Super Rugby teams + Force, Fiji, Samoa and another team from GRR for either a straight 7 or a one and a half round 10 game series again during the RC period.

I think it presents an opportunity to explore further commercial opportunities for both competitions. Which can only help in my opinion. Could open up the ability to engage more with the community by spreading games around more. An extra game at Brookvale etc. and a two or even three in the regions can only help.

You know, I like that idea WCR, if there is the money from TV I think an alternate comp (with no Wallabies)during the RC with maybe Fiji or teams from Asia, or Samoa etc actually is maybe a very good way to go. I thinking on first reading this maybe best idea I have heard or seen here. Also a very good way to keep reserve players outside the 31 man squad match fit.

 

[Wilson]

Paul Cully hits the nail on the head in looking at the root cause of the problems:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...s-staring-us-in-the-face-20190323-p516th.html

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

This is interesting and could be the source of the AP Super Rugby concept. https://english.kyodonews.net/news/...vgt0d4YGtz0Q_AvxkC2IdHKiYUpwOg-mGj2myCQSAcH04

 

[Rebels3]

This is interesting and could be the source of the AP Super Rugby concept. https://english.kyodonews.net/news/...vgt0d4YGtz0Q_AvxkC2IdHKiYUpwOg-mGj2myCQSAcH04

This article doesn’t reflect well on a few parties.

 

[Rebelsfan]

Does any one know what happens if Sunwolves decide not to field a team in 2020? I remember that ARU moaned about the need to field five teams under the old broadcast agreement and now only four, but it is my understanding that SANZAAR have the agreement to field a certain number of teams, and is JRU or Sunwolves a party to that agreement? In the case, say, that the players skidaddle off to Europe earlier rather than later, say.

 

[Rebels3]

I’d say there would be legal implications if they didn’t. Wouldn’t stop them signing extremely cheap players tho and having 60-70+ blow outs each week

 

[hoggy]

I’d say there would be legal implications if they didn’t. Wouldn’t stop them signing extremely cheap players tho and having 60-70+ blow outs each week

Its hard to see them playing next year regardless of the legal implications, and especially with everything else happening.

Why would you spend a single cent more if no return is guaranteed, 60-70 points may be generous.

 

[Joe King]

I think it’d be easily workable if both parties agreed to certain parameters, such as (and only as an example) 60% of match day squad must be qualified for the nation they are playing in, the other thing and because we’d be the masters of our own destiny there could be competition wide bye weeks to all national squads to get together, etc. basically making where the players are coming from a moot point.

On the Fiji point, I think their value would come with increased audiences/attendance in areas with a strong islander community such as Brisbane, Sydney and Auckland. World Rugby and Aus/NZ government money would be a realistic prospect as well because WR (World Rugby) wants to see them continue to improve and the governments want to establish influence in the area. In a football sense they could become a “selling” club as well but contracting young/promising players on the island and then selling them for profit with transfer fees mid contract cycle to French and English clubs. It could provide revenue for the team to be run.

Did I hear correctly that Western Sydney has the latest population of Fijians outside of Fiji itself?

I suppose they could even play most of their games in say, Western Sydney as their main base, with a couple of games back in Fiji each season.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Most interesting that Dentsu Inc has bought out CSM, a leading NZ rugby agent. Does anyone know which players in NZ are managed by CSM, and what the implications might be for any new competition started up by Dentsu?

 

[pnut]

Most interesting that Dentsu Inc has bought out CSM, a leading NZ rugby agent. Does anyone know which players in NZ are managed by CSM, and what the implications might be for any new competition started up by Dentsu?

https://www.csm.com/capabilities/talent

 

[Quick Hands]

Did I hear correctly that Western Sydney has the latest population of Fijians outside of Fiji itself?

I suppose they could even play most of their games in say, Western Sydney as their main base, with a couple of games back in Fiji each season.

Quite possibly correct.

To which I'd add that there is a significant population of people of Tongan and Samoan heritage in Sydney. So much so that the code of conduct for the Penrith Junior RL is in 3 languages; English, Tongan and Samoan. I have been advocating for some time that PI teams be based in Sydney and Brisbane (with perhaps one home game each in their home countries) as an alternative to the shambles that is Super Rugby.

EDIT: Tonga and Samoa played a league test at Cambelltown in 2018 (with Fiji v PNG as the game before) and drew 20,000 to the game.

 

[Slim 293]

Most interesting that Dentsu Inc has bought out CSM, a leading NZ rugby agent. Does anyone know which players in NZ are managed by CSM, and what the implications might be for any new competition started up by Dentsu?

Dentsu are a large international marketing agency, who bought out Harold Mitchell's company a few years back, and clients include the AFL, Qantas, Disney, GM, NAB, Cricket Australia, FFA.......... and I'm not sure if they still do, but they had the advertising contract for the Federal Government a Prime Minister or two ago.

They also have the marketing rights for RWC 2019 - no surprises there as they are a Japanese company......... anyways.........

Is there any indication they're interested in starting a rugby competition?

 

[Braveheart81]

Who really benefits from a postulated competition involving each of the four Super Rugby sides, the Force and the Fiji Drua?

Isn't it just the NRC by another name with only one Qld side instead of two and one NSW team instead of ?many. Reds always took the NRC seriously with their two teams, but NSW was the odd man out. Is it just a contrivance to improve the NSW chances of actually being competitive?

The Australian teams because they get a couple more viable home to supplement the fact that 6 or 7 home games isn't enough to balance the books.

Regardless of how teams performed in the NRC it was never a commercial benefit for them.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The Australian teams because they get a couple more viable home to supplement the fact that 6 or 7 home games isn't enough to balance the books.

Regardless of how teams performed in the NRC it was never a commercial benefit for them.

Plus, you're taking teams from two professional competitions and forming a third. Meaning that it would be professional as well. Something the NRC has never been. Something that automatically boosts its legitimacy and marketability for the participants.

 

[wamberal]

The NRC has suffered from continual changes, all kinds of changes. The single most important ingredient in any competition is that the competitors have a genuine and meaningful identity. Continuity is obviously paramount.

 

[Quick Hands]

I couldn't help but notice that there hasn't been an announcement about the SCG crowd last Saturday night. This is normally a sign that less than 10,000 attended a Waratahs game.

RECENT ATTENDANCES

CROWD​

DATE​

​

​

EVENT​

STADIUM​

9,881 24/03/2019 NRL: Wests Tigers v Warriors Campbelltown Stadium
20,134 24/03/2019 NRL: Bulldogs v Eels ANZ Stadium
40,033 24/03/2019 AFL: Fremantle v North Melbourne Optus Stadium
15,424 24/03/2019 AFL: GWS Giants v Essendon Giants Stadium
13,566 24/03/2019 Super Rugby: Reds v Brumbies Suncorp Stadium
20,291 24/03/2019 AFL: St Kilda v Gold Coast Suns Marvel Stadium
13,429 2 4/03/2019 AFLW Finals: Adelaide Crows v Geelong Cats Adelaide Oval
9,664 23/03/2019 NRL: Sea Eagles v Roosters Lottoland Stadium
32,303 23/03/2019 AFL: Western Bulldogs v Sydney Swans Marvel Stadium
20,029 23/03/2019 AFL: Brisbane Lions v West Coast Eagles Gabba
19,451 23/03/2019 NRL: Knights v Panthers McDonald Jones Stadium
50,180 23/03/2019 AFL: Adelaide Crows v Hawthorn Adelaide Oval
15,217 23/03/2019 NRL: Sharks v Titans Shark Park
7,146 23/03/2019 AFLW Finals: Carlton v Fremantle Ikon Park
38,866 23/03/2019 AFL: Melbourne v Port Adelaide Melbourne Cricket Ground