Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rugbynutter39]

Something like that could possibly occur, RA contract say 30 players, these are then spread evenly over a domestic league (a draft system would be required), ex: 10 team domestic league, each franchise has a max 3/4 test players (you cannot allow a situation when one team buys 10 or so test players) at least not until the leagues is well established.



The other main issue is season timetable, in Aus you cannot have a domestic season that effectively ends before winter really starts. you cannot just have Test rugby from July on-wards.

My concern with all these proposals is you put your best players in a weak domestic competition how the heck is that going to help them be ready to be test standard? I don't think strong domestic professional teams and strong test team are mutually exclusive events....

Please save us twiggy - could we get say the Brumbies and Rebels jettison Super Rugby next year a year early from 2020 contract and join Twiggy Ball (ie have at least 3 teams proposed out of the 8 for twiggy ball as oz teams).

 

[Omar Comin']

Omar, Test revenue comes from being able to sell TV rights internationally - as well as twice domestically courtesy of anti-siphoning laws. as you would expect Test rugby has good value in overseas TV markets.

Last year RA made $62 million in revenue from broadcasting, $27 million from ticket sales/matchday and $31 million from sponsorship. I'm not sure what % of the broadcasting revenue is generated by the test matches (I believe it's a majority but Super Rugby must be a reasonably large minority) but I'm pretty sure the Wallabies contribution % would be significantly higher for matchday and sponsorship revenue. And thus I think broadcasting is actually less than half the total revenue generated by the Wallabies.

I think a well run domestic competition plus a state of origin series or champions league could bring in more revenue than the Wallabies. It'd have a better chance than Super Rugby anyway.

 

[sunnyboys]

yeah i've always thought from reading different articles over the years that Super Rugby could be about 30% - so cut that TV revenue by $20m and ask what the new format might make to replace it (on a net basis after saving on travel and overheads like SANZAAR office).

 

[half]

How much revenue does the the A League generate and how does that compare to the amount of revenue the FFA makes from the Socceroos and RA makes from the Wallabies?

The Wallabies play 6 or 7 home tests per year, and usually not all of them are huge drawcards. A double round robin domestic competition with 10 teams would have 90 games plus finals all in ideal time slots. If average crowds were around 10,000 and average ratings around 70,000 would this not be worth more than 6 or 7 Wallabies home games averaging 30-40k crowds and half a million viewers? And then add on a state of origin game or 3, or a champions league, or an all stars game.

Waratahs, Reds, Brumbies, Force, Rebels then take another 5 from West Sydney, North Sydney, Brisbane 2, Newcastle, Gold Coast, North QLD, Adelaide, Fiji Drua, Sunwolves, Wild Knights, Hong Kong, Pacific Warriors.

Omar, Once upon a time the Socceroos accounted for over 90% of FFA revenue. Today the A-League contributes about 75% of FFA revenue.

Thats what the big shit fight is over today, the clubs want more money as they say they earn it. What makes it complex is the Asian Football Confederation has the broadcast rights and therefor FFA lost the ability to sell Socceroo matches and receive a token amount in return from the AFC.

However the A_league without crowds, direct club sponsorship and merchandise sales generates over 80 million in revenue, this goes to FFA, who keep about 35 million.

 

[half]

I started completely opposed to your thinking half, but man have I changed.

If we were to lose any form of national game bar the WBs, I'm out. Or down at the club rugby anyway. Give me a domestic comp or at least a second tier comp with a national footprint and I am in, whatever it is called.

Personally I believe that is our best chance at a competitive WBs long term as well.

Dru

I am not a gifted wordsmith, and I hope this comes out the way I intend it, sorry in advance if you read this in any other way than as carney in the coalmine.

The carney in the coalmine is there to warn of a gas leak and danger.

FFA today released the 15 bidders for the two A-League spots. The fight FFA have today is about expansion, control, and P & R.

Currently the A-League has 10 teams, there are 15 bids, many government backed, many with lots and lots of money. There is a lot of talk that the bids that fail could form the core of the second division soccer folk often talk about.

There is a very good chance it good go that way, FFA accept all bids, or most bids and create a second division with the bids that fail. If this is the case, and you look at who is behind many of these bids then expect an evolution in the sports world and when combined with their E-game it is a substantial lift in competition.

This is a summary from of the bids from a soccer site. Those still in the Super Rugby camp need to understand what’s coming, the world is not standing still.

VICTORIA
TEAM 11 - Dandenong-based bid represented by local councillors and former Herald Sun journalist Matt Windley. Provisional plans for a boutique stadium next to Dandenong Station.
SOUTH MELBOURNE - Former NSL heavyweights and four-time national champions, the Oceania Club of the Century is based at the 12,000 capacity Lakeside Stadium.
WEST MELBOURNE - Reportedly the relocation of a Geelong-based bid to represent Melbourne's western suburbs, sparked interest by announcing it could fund its own A-League stadium.
BELGRAVIA LEISURE - Geoff Lord's late-bid for an A-League club based in inner Melbourne, stadium plans yet to be announced.
NEW SOUTH WALES
CAMPBELLTOWN - 50 kilometres south-west of Sydney's CBD, a NSW bid based at the 20,000 capacity Campbelltown Sports Stadium. Backed by billionaire property developer Lang Walker with Brett Emerton as Bid Ambassador.
SOUTH-WEST SYDNEY - Based in Liverpool, west of Sydney. A new A-League bid aiming to take advantage of South-West Sydney's growing population, infrastructure projects and city planning.
SOUTHERN EXPANSION - Aiming to represent the Sutherland, St George and Illawarra regions, will play its home games at three separate venues. Backed by a Chinese / Hong Kong-based investor.
WOLLONGONG WOLVES - Another former NSL heavyweight led by CEO Chris Papakosmas, based at 18,000 capacity WIN Stadium. Adam Federici is Bid Ambassador.
TASMANIA
TASMANIA UNITED - Backed by former Victory shareholders Robert Belteky and Harry Stamoulis, currently based at 18,000-capacity North Hobart Oval with tentative government plans for rectangular stadium.
SOUTH AUSTRALIA
ADELAIDE 11 - Backed by former NSL club Adelaide City despite their previous uncertainty over viability and based out of West delaide, reportedly aiming to play at Cooper's Stadium.
QUEENSLAND
BRISBANE CITY - The only Brisbane-based bid due to Brisbane Strikers' withdrawal. Led by former politician and CEO Robert Cavalucci, based at 19,000 capacity Ballymore Stadium.
GOLD COAST UNITED - Former A-League club that had its licence revoked in 2012 under the former ownership of Clive Palmer, based at 27,000 capacity Robina Stadium.
WESTERN PRIDE - Provisional Ipswich bid launched by Queensland NPL club Western Pride, currently based at 5,000 capacity North Ipswich Reserve.
AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY
CANBERRA - Another late bid, unrevealed whether it has direct links with W-League side Canberra United. Canberra based backers, based at 25,000 capacity Canberra Stadium.
WESTERN AUSTRALIA
FREMANTLE CITY - Reportedly sharing Perth Glory's 20,000 capacity nib Stadium and launched separately to existing W.A NPL club Fremantle City

 

[Joe King]

I think the problem with this is if you need 6-10 weeks for a rep version of Super Rugby then you'd struggle to get investors interested in buying into a domestic competition that could only run for 10-12 weeks - and the domestic comp would be clearly overshadowed by the Super Rugby tournament. Even if you could, unless those investors were willing to lose tonnes of money it would be a semi-professional competition for those who aren't centrally contracted or making the rep teams.

The other way is to have more of a champions league concept, with a 2nd tier challenge cup as well. Where you play the domestic league or conference and afterwards the top half teams go into the former and the bottom half the latter - against the corresponding teams from New Zealand and South Africa. Or it could be 3 tiers.

I think to go to an MLS type competition would have to mean just having the 1 Australian based comp and avoiding playing NZ and SA teams outside of test matches (you still can have some international element by having greater allowances for foreign players in the league). There could be a short state of origin type series in the middle or at the end but I think the competition would need to be a proper home and away season with 8-12 teams. 2 or 3 teams in Sydney, 2 in Brisbane, 1 Perth, 1 Melbourne, 1 Canberra, 1 Fiji, and other possibilities being Newcastle, Gold Coast, North QLD, Adelaide, and various places in Asia. But for this to happen the ARU would have to give up some control and do something that isn't the best move in regards to high performance. So I predict they won't.

I seriously don't know why they didn't do this while there were still 6 teams per conference, rather than cutting teams. Would have been a much more interesting competition.

 

[hoggy]

Interesting Podcast with Al Baxter, regards Super rugby, basically get out of it.

http://www.skipi.tv/al-baxter-skipitv/

 

[kiap]

Interesting Podcast with Al Baxter, regards Super rugby, basically get out of it.

http://www.skipi.tv/al-baxter-skipitv/

Spot on

 

[kiap]

And of course there can (even should) be an opportunity for cross-border franchise/province/club games.

Even call it "Super Rugby" if necessary … but the existing model needs to go wholly into the bin.

Tweaks here and there simply ain't going to make it viable.

Restart from square one.

 

[half]

Al Baxter saying it all. Hope some people are listening.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Interesting Podcast with Al Baxter, regards Super rugby, basically get out of it.

http://www.skipi.tv/al-baxter-skipitv/

Thanks yep al Baxter nsw ru board member saying super rugby done it’s time and need a domestic professional competition.

What all oz rugby fans are calling for but will RA listen and will they do everything to work with twiggy to make it happen.




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[wamberal]

Thanks yep al Baxter nsw ru board member saying super rugby done it’s time and need a domestic professional competition.

What all oz rugby fans are calling for but will RA listen and will they do everything to work with twiggy to make it happen.




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It might work, if it is heavily subsidised for long enough to build up a bit of momentum and if the franchises are allowed to import a defined number of overseas players. Particularly New Zealanders.


How long is "long enough"? Who would know?

 

[half]

Being a Central Coast local these days and having an increasing interest in the Mariners. This news titbit is relatively small in the grand scheme of things. However it goes to the core in many ways of many of our problems. Taken from a club release and the kids home side web page.

I will copy only the bit I think applying to rugby.

The former Ipswich Grammar School student

So a Brisbane Grammar School boy of high athletic skill plays soccer over union and he has a place to go to maybe further his sporting career.

I have spoken to a number of coaches in both Sydney [Epping] & Central Coast [Woy Woy] from about U 10's to U 16's and they all or mostly say the same thing. That once we turned players away, today we get a lot of players turned away from other codes.

From the link below, Dan Hall will be joining the Central Coast Mariners on the 1st of June.

Please open the link and tell me that at 18 he does not look like a great rugby player. Two things he had a second tier club to go to and a local domestic competition to strive for.

http://westernpridefc.com.au/featured/hall-joins-central-coast-mariners/

 

[RugbyReg]

That is perhaps the single most ‘grasping at straws’ post I’ve seen and almost completely irrelevant to this thread topic.

 

[Dan54]

Interesting Podcast with Al Baxter, regards Super rugby, basically get out of it.

http://www.skipi.tv/al-baxter-skipitv/

Good interesting discussion wasn't it? Some good thoughts , ok I don't think they got all the answers, but some were worth listening too.

 

[KOB1987]

I'm not going to take up space quoting your post @half but as Reg says that post is completely irrelevant. The kid looks to be of African descent (soccer is quite popular on that continent) and there's no evidence he ever even considered rugby as a sport, he's been on the Mariners' radar since he was 15. They play soccer at all the Sydney private schools, I assume the Brisbane ones are the same. Even if our code was thriving we aren't going to capture every single prospect. Moving on.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

It might work, if it is heavily subsidised for long enough to build up a bit of momentum and if the franchises are allowed to import a defined number of overseas players. Particularly New Zealanders.


How long is "long enough"? Who would know?

I don’t think we are going to see any commentator come out with the perfect answer for a new competition with the ten minutes of thinking / brainstorming and presented on the back of a napkin.

What we know is fans have had enough of super rugby and done its dash. What oz fans want is more time friendly content, more domestic derbies that create tribalism but also offer uncertainty of outcome.

What we also know is RA got no money to do such another competition so either collaborates with twiggy or sanzaar partners. The latter more about collaboration with nz and consider inclusion of pi team. The stumbling block is nz less interested and also without open borders policy seeing nz sides thrash oz sides regularly and still not seeing enough oz sides to follow would limit opportunities for growth.

Hence preference for twiggy collaboration as he is prepared to invest big money in bringing oz players home and also would probably consider say support of investment of Tongan based team playing out of Sydney (as an example) to create more content for oz audiences.

Lot to work through to create a domestic competition with some other Asia pacific sides included but best outcome would be for RA collaborating with both twiggy and key sanzaar partners (re: nz) to create something that could best represent oz rugby interests and have the best chance to grow rather than shrink our professional game. But collaborating with twiggy moreso than nz more important given twiggy more interested than nz in creating a competition that leads to a stronger and more appealing oz professional teams to follow competing in it.

Not collaborating and working closely with twiggy is no longer an option for RA and one hopes that real reality is known to them.


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[Joe King]

I don’t think we are going to see any commentator come out with the perfect answer for a new competition with the ten minutes of thinking / brainstorming and presented on the back of a napkin.

What we know is fans have had enough of super rugby and done its dash. What oz fans want is more time friendly content, more domestic derbies that create tribalism but also offer uncertainty of outcome.

What we also know is RA got no money to do such another competition so either collaborates with twiggy or sanzaar partners. The latter more about collaboration with nz and consider inclusion of pi team. The stumbling block is nz less interested and also without open borders policy seeing nz sides thrash oz sides regularly and still not seeing enough oz sides to follow would limit opportunities for growth.

Hence preference for twiggy collaboration as he is prepared to invest big money in bringing oz players home and also would probably consider say support of investment of Tongan based team playing out of Sydney (as an example) to create more content for oz audiences.

Lot to work through to create a domestic competition with some other Asia pacific sides included but best outcome would be for RA collaborating with both twiggy and key sanzaar partners (re: nz) to create something that could best represent oz rugby interests and have the best chance to grow rather than shrink our professional game. But collaborating with twiggy moreso than nz more important given twiggy more interested than nz in creating a competition that leads to a stronger and more appealing oz professional teams to follow competing in it.

Not collaborating and working closely with twiggy is no longer an option for RA and one hopes that real reality is known to them.


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I reckon a combined PI team of some sort in Western Sydney would smash it. It would gain instant cultural traction. And it would fit well, geographically speaking, along side the NSW Waratahs.

 

[Joe King]

Actually maybe that could work? RA contract 20-30 players per year on full time contracts, and then endorse a full season MLS style competition that is run by the clubs/franchises and is either not subsidised by RA, or only minimally.

I'd be interested to explore this idea, or something similar, a little more - if in fact, a MLS style set-up really did allow RA to save spending too much on the tier below the Wallabies.

I have a question:

If we moved to a domestic comp of say, 8 teams, played from March-June (home and away + finals), still played the July Inbounds + TRC + November Tour + maybe a state of origin series (either before TRC, or after TRC before the November Tour) - wouldn't that provide enough revenue to keep (even bring back) our best 30 (even 40!) players in Aus, and thereby, allowing us to remain competitive at Test level?

And if so, what is the downside to this strategy?

Perhaps one downside might be that our best players would be playing in a less competitive domestic comp, and therefore, not be as well prepared for Test Rugby.

However, what if the teams for our domestic comp were something like the following:

Waratahs
Reds
Brumbies
Rebels
Force

Fiji Dura
Sunwolves
Combined PI team (playing out of Western Sydney)

Ok, maybe that wouldn't be the exact make up of the last 3 teams, but something similar.

Surely, the competitiveness wouldn't be too much of a step down from Super Rugby currently. And surely, the exodus of players below the top 40 players wouldn't be as great as we might think, no?

 

[Joe King]

I'd be interested to explore this idea, or something similar, a little more - if in fact, a MLS style set-up really did allow RA to save spending too much on the tier below the Wallabies.

I have a question:

If we moved to a domestic comp of say, 8 teams, played from March-June (home and away + finals), still played the July Inbounds + TRC + November Tour + maybe a state of origin series (either before TRC, or after TRC before the November Tour) - wouldn't that provide enough revenue to keep (even bring back) our best 30 (even 40!) players in Aus, and thereby, allowing us to remain competitive at Test level?

And if so, what is the downside to this strategy?

Perhaps one downside might be that our best players would be playing in a less competitive domestic comp, and therefore, not be as well prepared for Test Rugby.

However, what if the teams for our domestic comp were something like the following:

Waratahs
Reds
Brumbies
Rebels
Force

Fiji Dura
Sunwolves
Combined PI team (playing out of Western Sydney)

Ok, maybe that wouldn't be the exact make up of the last 3 teams, but something similar.

Surely, the competitiveness wouldn't be too much of a step down from Super Rugby currently. And surely, the exodus of players below the top 40 players wouldn't be as great as we might think, no?

Sorry, I'm posting too much, and I'm not the most interesting commenter on here. But it just excites me to think of how good it would be to have greater control of the playing schedule, with four games over the weekend at ideal times, and focusing on what works for the Australian landscape, rather than needing to compromise.

This is what would appeal to me:

March-June: Domestic Comp - full home and away + finals
July: Inbound Tour
August-September: TRC
October: 'State of Origin' style series (proper NSW, Qld, 'Combined States' rep teams)
November: European Tour

With something similar to the make-up of the teams suggested for the (mostly) domestic comp, they could still keep the current NRC structure for development purposes if they wanted to, and play it somewhere in July-September, under the Test season. The October 'state of origin' style series would then be a reward for performing NRC players, and also allow under-performing Wallabies to re-prove themselves, in order to be selected on the end of year Tour in November.