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Where to for Super Rugby?

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Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
It appears that the international component of Super Rugby has worn off a little for many Aussie rugby fans since Super Rugby first began. Back then it was a novelty, and originally involved the idea of playing the traditionally great provincial teams of SA and NZ. The international component can be good if it is used only enough to maintain the interest of discovering who is the best (our best vs your best).

But Super Rugby simply can't satisfy the domestic appetite that many Aussie rugby fans seem to have. That appetite won't go away. And it's only exasperated when fans look at what the other football codes have in Australia. And perhaps for many Aussie rugby fans, they would rather risk trying something a little different, rather than die wondering if the current product is as good as rugby can be in Australia.
 

jimmydubs

Dave Cowper (27)
I haven’t read this thread in a week or so and have just caught up. I sincerely hope Raelene is reading it as it highlights the need for change of some form for the game to survive; whether or not the exact answer is in here.

I vote keep reds/tahs, keep the logos branding and just drop the qld/nsw off the front if you’re overly concerned about geographic overlay of team names but it doesn’t matter in books.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
I think a lot of posters here, just about all in fact, want to see a domestic competition.


Easy to say, but the devil is not just in the detail, it is in the basic framework as well. Particularly when we consider possible revenues and likely costs.
 

dru

David Wilson (68)
I think a lot of posters here, just about all in fact, want to see a domestic competition.


Easy to say, but the devil is not just in the detail, it is in the basic framework as well. Particularly when we consider possible revenues and likely costs.

Not really, I don't think. It's more about posters here seriously wanting the most effective survival of rugby. The rest, IMHO, falls into place.

So yes, I at least would welcome ditching Super Rugby as it is currently offered. I also predict that Super Rugby will offer MUCH less to Australia as we go forward - not long term either.
 

formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
We can't simultaneously have an international Super Rugby competition and also allow travel-related issues to excuse poor on-field performances.
TV commentators, coaches, and captains are all quoted about jet lag, tiredness, and stiff bodies.
If it interferes so much with rugby performance then don't do it.
 

half

Dick Tooth (41)
I think people now understand what the repercussions are of the flawed Super Rugby model, I only hope we move quickly to fix it as the future generations will bemoan the legacy we have left them.
 

Rebels3

Jim Lenehan (48)
I don’t want super rugby but I also equally don’t want a domestic competition. There is absolutely no appetite beyond a few hardcore supporters for this. The wallabies would quickly become pathetic and the brand would be worth nothing. Anyone half decent at a junior age would play NRL. We’d probably end up been a country with a good 7s program and a test team that might get the odd November test (the Italy of the South).

I like the premise of a domestic league but I’m absolutely confident it wouldn’t work. I’m all in on a trans-Tasman comp, the catch is finding a way to make that happen. I personally think time will see market forces make this happen as the lure of the Euro is just too great for SA. If that doesn’t happen I’d rather stick with Super Rugby and get WA involved again.
 

sunnyboys

Bob Loudon (25)
You know for fact “there is absolutely no appetite beyond a few hardcore supporters for this”??

How would you know this? We’ve never had a domestic pro comp playing in the “footy zone” being March to Sept in oz, and which has no competitor comp.

The NRC cannot be used as a comparison for reasons I posted a page back.
 

Micheal

Alan Cameron (40)
@Rebels3, the Wallabies WOULD go to shit if we continued to exclusively select Wallabies from the Australian competition. If we go all domestic, this will have to change, and I think a world in which we do this isn't apocalyptical.

Teams:

1 Sydney Waratahs (Inner North Shore & Eastern Sydney // Eastern Suburbs, Northern Suburbs, Sydney University, Randwick)
2 North Sydney Rah-rah-lins (Northern Sydney // Gordon, Manly, Warringah)
3 Western Sydney Somethings (South and Western Sydney // Eastwood, Parramatta, Penrith, Southern Districts, West Harbour)
4 Brisbane Reds
5 Other Queensland team
6 ACT Brumbies
7 Victorian Rebels
8 Western Force
9 Fijian Drua
10 Tokyo Sunwolves

11-14: NZ Franchises if they so wish to join.

15+: The Pacific Islands and other Asian nations as we look to expand.

Ze Details:

Previously, in the NRC, we found out that Sydney couldn't support 3x franchises. However, the crucial difference here is that, given the budgets of each team and the new Wallabies eligibility rules, the Brumbies / Force / Rebels squads WON'T be stacked with players of Super Rugby quality (as we know it now) and therefore they won't be exceedingly better than the Sydney squads.

Whilst I would love a Country team, it simply doesn't make sense as a concept as it necessitates rotating between home grounds. Perhaps it could be done if they simply cycled between two home grounds each (as the Sunwolves currently do), but I imagine it'd be hard to build traction.

This will essentially be semi-pro, but will hopefully develop to a full-time professional competition with competitive salaries as interest and attendance grows.

For those that are concerned with the level of the game - the Wallabies will still be competitive due to overseas inclusions (although, perhaps, not as competitive as now - but that's a trend that we're all slowly getting used to) and the rise of the Shute Shield in Sydney shows that the footy doesn't have to be the highest quality possible to be popular. I absolutely adored schoolboy footy, moreso than Super Rugby or the Wallabies at the time, and it wasn't because it was of a better quality.

It was because I was invested in it and because my friends were playing in it.

If anything, slower linespeed provides more time for the execution of skills, and the more players with emphysema / mild drinking problems, the more the game opens up in the second half (I joke - but as mentioned in other threads, many of my friends who play 1st Grade Shute Shield aren't exactly the image of health).

8 x squads of 40 gives us 320 semi-professional opportunities for players in Australian Rugby - a massive increase from what is currently available.

What people often forget as well is that more professional (semi or otherwise) in the game actually means more interest in the game.

Why?

Look at why the Shute Shield Grand Final has done so well in the two years that have passed.

I attended both of them! Why? Because my friends were playing and it was important for them.

I went with about 20+ friends each time. Why'd they attend? For the same reason! Some of those that went actually actively hate rugby - they just went to show their support and to get pissed.

What about the hundreds of clubmen, past and present, on the hills? Same reason! They train, drink and socialise with those involved, and therefore they felt an onus to attend.

So did the thousands of parents, aunties, uncles and family friends that attended. It was a community event, because a large part of the community was involved. It was more than just rugby.

I've even been to AFL games to support mates from highschool. I hate the sport, but I can put up with two hours of it if it's accompanied by a good environment and beer. Have you ever spoken to someone from Melbourne, aged 18-30, about it? Literally everybody knows at least two players and wears it like a badge of honour.

You go to festivals in Victoria in the off season and they're strutting around like Ibises in Central Sydney. There's one about every six metres.

How many other Shute Shield games have I attended in my life? One! Why? Because my friend was making his first grade debut (and broke his fucking jaw in the second phase - the prick).

Will I start attending more soon? God no! I hate the self-righteous pricks and the competition means nothing to me. If Super Rugby dies tomorrow and the Waratahs simply become the rep club for a handful of SS clubs, then maybe I'll start to care a bit more.

Finances

I honestly believe that with the correct community engagement, each game for the above competition could attract a crowd of about 5000, and if we're being honest, that's not too far from what our Super Rugby teams are getting (or will be getting in a matter of years).

Player costs will be far lower, as will travel expenses. Whether this is enough to support losses in TV Rights and Sponsorship remains to be seen. Perhaps we shouldn't have left Twiggy Forrest outside the tent.

The NRC?

In a way, this would replace it, which I think is fine.

It would allow the Shute Shield, and other state competitions, to become the 'third tier' in Australian Rugby, and every board at each Shute Shield club would cream their pants at the very thought.

From there, you could then create a playoff system between the winners of each state competition, and crown an Australian 'club' the annual champion.

Badda bing, badda boom.

5 to 10 years of pain (and the acknowledgement that we are a niche sport in Australia) for decades of gain (hopefully).
 

hoggy

Nev Cottrell (35)
You know for fact “there is absolutely no appetite beyond a few hardcore supporters for this”??

How would you know this? We’ve never had a domestic pro comp playing in the “footy zone” being March to Sept in oz, and which has no competitor comp.

The NRC cannot be used as a comparison for reasons I posted a page back.

Agree with the comparison regards the NRC, you cannot use this as a comparison for a domestic competition. And yet the same people are utterly convinced that a competition structure that is used successfully in about 95% of the worlds sporting leagues will somehow never work for Rugby Union here.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Agree with the comparison regards the NRC, you cannot use this as a comparison for a domestic competition. And yet the same people are utterly convinced that a competition structure that is used successfully in about 95% of the worlds sporting leagues will somehow never work for Rugby Union here.

That's the nub of it hoggy. We've been told about Australian rugby's unique uniqueness now for years. Nothing that works in in other rugby playing nation could work in Australia, nothing which works in every other major sporting code in Australia could possibly work in rugby, and on it goes.

It's nonsense, but the people that we have running the game haven't a clue.

And yes, there would be some short term pain, but it's preferable to the slow motion death throes that rugby is currently it.

Super rugby is just a money pit. Those still supporting the concept how long ago given up arguing for it on the basis of public support (which declines every passing year) or on the basis that it helps to develop the game in Australia (which is clearly doesn't). The only arguments they have left is to say that we must be part of a professional league and that no alternative could possibly work in Australia.
 

hoggy

Nev Cottrell (35)
That's the nub of it hoggy. We've been told about Australian rugby's unique uniqueness now for years. Nothing that works in in other rugby playing nation could work in Australia, nothing which works in every other major sporting code in Australia could possibly work in rugby, and on it goes.

It's nonsense, but the people that we have running the game haven't a clue.

And yes, there would be some short term pain, but it's preferable to the slow motion death throes that rugby is currently it.

Super rugby is just a money pit. Those still supporting the concept how long ago given up arguing for it on the basis of public support (which declines every passing year) or on the basis that it helps to develop the game in Australia (which is clearly doesn't). The only arguments they have left is to say that we must be part of a professional league and that no alternative could possibly work in Australia.

It is an over simplification of the problem, but the Top down nature of the game here is part of the reason the game is so unprepared to change. that money pit is going to certain people, and none of those people are keen on making themselves possibly redundant.

Sadly I can only see things change is if Super rugby literally goes belly up, if they cobble together another deal come 2020, I reckon thats it for the game here.
 

charlesalan

Sydney Middleton (9)
Super Rugby teams costs - it is not explained what this is, but I think it could be the travel expense associated with the competition. Here are the figures for the last four years:
2014: $4.053m
2015: $4.178m
2016: $8.084m
2017: $12.169m
This was one of the factors that Mr Clyne put forward as a reason to reduce the playing group to four and clearly, the travel costs have increased dramatically. Hopefully they will reduce in 2018.
So many international trips - airfare and accommodation in this competition though.
Total operating expenditure was $130 m.
Would like to have a look at NZ teams costs if any of our buddies can help out that would be great
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
So far what I have learnt is:


- everybody in leadership in Australian rugby knows nothing about the game, and is incompetent by definition;

- there is a simple solution to all our problems, only a dope could think otherwise;

- there is nothing unique about the Australian winter sports marketplace;


-have I missed anything?
 

hoggy

Nev Cottrell (35)
So far what I have learnt is:


- everybody in leadership in Australian rugby knows nothing about the game, and is incompetent by definition;
There are not incompetent, however many are compromised in there positions

- there is a simple solution to all our problems, only a dope could think otherwise;
No one ever said the solution was simple and didn't require sacrifice, but only a dope would think the current situation is working.

- there is nothing unique about the Australian winter sports marketplace;
It is an extremely crowded and competitive marketplace with huge potential


-have I missed anything?
only that doing the same thing over & over again yet expecting a different results is.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Super Rugby teams costs - it is not explained what this is, but I think it could be the travel expense associated with the competition. Here are the figures for the last four years:
2014: $4.053m
2015: $4.178m
2016: $8.084m
2017: $12.169m
This was one of the factors that Mr Clyne put forward as a reason to reduce the playing group to four and clearly, the travel costs have increased dramatically. Hopefully they will reduce in 2018.
So many international trips - airfare and accommodation in this competition though.
Total operating expenditure was $130 m.
Would like to have a look at NZ teams costs if any of our buddies can help out that would be great


The increase from 2015 to 2016 was predominantly travel due to addition of the Jaguares and Sunwolves.

The increase from 2016 to 2017 was the $4.1m spent running the Force.
 
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