Where to for Super Rugby?

[WorkingClassRugger]

Also, didn't the Rebels beat the Highlanders in NZ earlier this year? They're clearly not cannon fodder.

There's a lot of harking back to previous seasons as opposed to looking at result from this season. I actually think something RA should be looking to invest heavily in is quality coaches. That has is been and is the difference between the two sets of teams. Not the mythical depth or talent issue.

 

[Derpus]

I'm not saying we should cut a team, there are more factors to consider than just on-field quality as you point out. But cutting a team IMO would help on-field product. And I really hate the expression 'shrink to greatness', FWIW. It's overused, overdone and frankly a little bit insulting to the valid points that support the view that we'd do better with less teams.

Only if you keep the players from the team cut. Given the uncertainties surrounding the game here, if my team was cut i would be surfing onto the first contract offered out of here.

Plus, even keeping the majority of the best players didn't seem to help the Rebels perform.

It doesn't seem to be the case of 2+2=4. Which if you actually stop and consider the complexities of what makes a team successful, is obvious.

 

[Dan54]

No.

I think the point of the thread is to look forwards and discuss the best option for the future - acknowledge the past but dont be a slave to it. Which is what we are now doing. Hence the title "Where to for Super Rugby?"

NZ Rugby, and the thread of last night NZ rugby show, was along the lines of "Australia is weak in the construct of their existing structures so they should only have two teams". Its regressive thinking. McLennan and Clarke seem to have moved forward to the point where they are acknowledging Super/SANZAR is broken so are planning to start afresh. NZR's offer was just "less of the same", not real reform.

Sorry mate I calling you a bullsh*****, I never heard anyone from NZR say Aus should only have 2 teams, and certainly didn't hear anyone on Breakdown on it. What they did say is they doubt that Aus rugby is strong enough to have 5 teams , but were asking Kafe to disagree, but he didn't Kafe (you know the ex Wallaby) said "of course Aus rugby can't compete with 5 teams".

 

[barbarian]

Let's assume the Force are cut. Which of those players right now would improve the other franchises? Maybe FLW (Fergus Lee-Warner) - that's it?

It's a depth thing as much as anything. Lance, Godwin, Ralston, Stowers, FLW (Fergus Lee-Warner), Stander, McGregor all Super roster quality, and that's just the names I can get off the top of my head.

 

[Derpus]

It's a depth thing as much as anything. Lance, Godwin, Ralston, Stowers, FLW (Fergus Lee-Warner), Stander, McGregor all Super roster quality, and that's just the names I can get off the top of my head.

Who do McGregor, Lance or Godwin improve?

 

[Dan54]

Drafts won't work for rugby union, because Australia doesn't have a monopoly on players or the cash to spend. A player might stick around in Australia because they want to live in their hometown with their loved ones. Why take part in a draft and risk being sent on the other side of the country for $100,000, when you can go to Japan or France for twice that much?

Yep and a draft certainly wouldn't work in a TT, you can't force a young player to move to another country. If a young fella from Brisbane was drafted by say the Clan and didn't want to go there, the only answer is perhps League?

 

[Dan54]

It's a depth thing as much as anything. Lance, Godwin, Ralston, Stowers, FLW (Fergus Lee-Warner), Stander, McGregor all Super roster quality, and that's just the names I can get off the top of my head.

Bang on! I really believe it ONLY a depth thing Barb! Whilst I don't go a bundle on Lance he be a bloody handy back up 10 etc.

 

[Derpus]

I would put a tenner on us being exactly as competitive as we are now and have generally always been historically - even if we cut two teams.

It's like how the Lions arent 4 times as good as Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales. They are marginally better than the best of those four teams, if at all.

 

[Dan54]

Super 8 is a logical position for all, but we should understand that we would end up in competition with NZR in looking to expand any domestic competition through PI teams and the like.

I think it is exciting times.

this proposed Super 8 comp RA is supposed to be taking to tv, have they got agreement form NZ and SA on it? If they have ,it shows how much everyone is talking behind scenes and most of what we read is bullshit, isn't this what has upset everyone about NZR, supposedly coming up with a comp without talking to everyone else first?

 

[Derpus]

this proposed Super 8 comp RA is supposed to be taking to tv, have they got agreement form NZ and SA on it? If they have ,it shows how much everyone is talking behind scenes and most of what we read is bullshit, isn't this what has upset everyone about NZR, supposedly coming up with a comp without talking to everyone else first?

No one has agreed to anything. It's being presented as an option. Hence the deadline to NZR to say ye or nay.

 

[Dan54]

I would put a tenner on us being exactly as competitive as we are now and have generally always been historically - even if we cut two teams.

It's like how the Lions arent 4 times as good as Ireland, Scotland, England and Wales. They are marginally better than the best of those four teams, if at all.

Probably a very bad example, the Lions have got an incredible record for a team that comes together a week or so before they tour etc, I would imagine most international teams would struggle with their format. No camps etc just thrown together and play.

 

[Number 7]

Sorry mate I calling you a bullsh*****, I never heard anyone from NZR say Aus should only have 2 teams, and certainly didn't hear anyone on Breakdown on it. What they did say is they doubt that Aus rugby is strong enough to have 5 teams , but were asking Kafe to disagree, but he didn't Kafe (you know the ex Wallaby) said "of course Aus rugby can't compete with 5 teams".

Ever heard of the Aratipu report commissioned by NZ rugby? You know, the one that had a preferred model of 8 teams with two from Australia and one from the pacific? Go look it up.

 

[Dan54]

No one has agreed to anything. It's being presented as an option. Hence the deadline to NZR to say ye or nay.

Oh you mean like the NZR one? Ahh I get it Aus can have an option but not NZ

 

[Derpus]

Probably a very bad example, the Lions have got an incredible record for a team that comes together a week or so before they tour etc, I would imagine most international teams would struggle with their format. No camps etc just thrown together and play.

I mean, they usually have at least 4-5 games before playing another international side?

 

[Derpus]

Oh you mean like the NZR one? Ahh I get it Aus can have an option but not NZ

Yeah, except that it's an option in addition to any other domestic or TT comp - posed to prevent SA from ripping through both our countries with what i can only assume would be pretty succesful litigation for breaching the SANZAAR agreements.

It's not 'hey this is the only comp goin and you can maybe have a couple of teams in it if you want'.

 

[Dan54]

Ever heard of the Aratipu report commissioned by NZ rugby? You know, the one that had a preferred model of 8 teams with two from Australia and one from the pacific? Go look it up.

Yep I heard of the Aritipu report commissioned by NZ rugby,it is just that a report, it had members of NZR on it and people from outside ie commercial interests , now I will ask you where NZR said Australia should only have 2 teams? I have only ever heard NZR say while that any comp would have to be what all parties want and they wanted the best one in world if possible.
And to add the preferred model was 8-10 team so you even got that wrong!

 

[sendit]

That's the sort of defeatism that keeps this sport mire in mediocrity.

Seriously!

"Young players would hate to move to South Yarra/Fitzroy on a $100k salary to play sport. It's much better to live with mum and pull beers at the pub playing footy with mates."

Spare me

Theres a reason only competitions like AFL, NFL and NBA have a draft. It's sound logic that a draft won't work. Not to mention that League stopped drafting players as it was deemed a restriction of trade

 

[sendit]

Who has said NZR is having a 5 team tournament, that is arrogance in the extreme to think to think you know what they are planning. Christ and you jokers moan at NZR!

Havent you been bitching for literal weeks about AU not having a plan and not releasing it to the public etc etc then you've just pulled this crap saying that we don't know what NZ are planning and that's apparently ok

 

[Dan54]

Yeah, except that it's an option in addition to any other domestic or TT comp - posed to prevent SA from ripping through both our countries with what i can only assume would be pretty succesful litigation for breaching the SANZAAR agreements.

It's not 'hey this is the only comp goin and you can maybe have a couple of teams in it if you want'.

So I keep asking when and where NZR said that. Their original proposal was the, as until then RA etc hadn't even suggested one, not sure how you lot negotiate , but without a starting point you got nothing!

 

[Dan54]

Havent you been bitching for literal weeks about AU not having a plan and not releasing it to the public etc etc then you've just pulled this crap saying that we don't know what NZ are planning and that's apparently ok

So where have I been bitching that RA didn't have a plan, I said they didn't that not bitching, but that still doesn't stop me asking who from NZR has said that Aus can only have 2 teams, and I keep asking it, but noone will show me. I would add I have no idea of what NZR's plans are, they haven't released any for alternatives, and don't think they should until preferred model is scrapped. We do know their prefeeerred model don't we ,that's what a lot of the bitching is about.