Where to for Super Rugby?

[Gnostic]

it's now produced 70 odd Super Rugby players. Not a bad start.

Really. It PRODUCED these players. That very selective since most of the "PRODUCED" were already in programs. It gave exposure to a few more and proved a couple were not up to even club level and got them moved on.

 

[p.Tah]

Went to watch the Tahs today. Disappointed about the result but I'll head out to the next game. Look at the score board at the end of the game. Join us for the next home game on the 21st April. 21st of fricken April. It's the 2nd of April. That's 3 weeks away.
The last home game was against the Brumbies over 2 weeks ago. Before that the 25th of February.
There is no continuity. It drives me nuts.

 

[brokendown]

The NRC has been a Godsend in WA-a great pathway from club rugby to Super level-and it has produced dividends as far as local development is concerned.
but what the hell-it will all come to nothing if the Force is boned
the anger is growing over here-talk of boycotting the september test is gaining momentum-basically we have had a gutful

 

[The torpedo]

Really. It PRODUCED these players. That very selective since most of the "PRODUCED" were already in programs. It gave exposure to a few more and proved a couple were not up to even club level and got them moved on.

Well it helped them get more up to speed for the pace of Super Rugby

 

[louie]

Really. It PRODUCED these players. That very selective since most of the "PRODUCED" were already in programs. It gave exposure to a few more and proved a couple were not up to even club level and got them moved on.

I don't how you qualify producing a player but nothing i'm sure it can't be done in 3 seasons. Hardly anytime to produced anything. However there are some examples of how the NRC has helped:

a) It's helped developed Jake Gordon. Who by the looks of it is a much better halfback then Nick Phipps. His expose in the NRC helped him be prepared for super rugby.
b) Kerevi, one of the most exciting young players to come through in years cut his teeth in the NRC. I remember the first game when he tore it up.
c) the Force. They've improved dramatically this year and that has all been built on the foundation of the the NRC win last year.

 

[cyclopath]

Well it helped them get more up to speed for the pace of Super Rugby

They need to start using the whole gearbox.

 

[Gnostic]

Perhaps its time you walk away then.



Its very rare I see you post anything constructive or positive in these places.



You clearly don't like what you watch anymore, or a lot of the viewpoints here.



I think this constant "us vs. them" mentality is so acidic in Australian rugby. How is the ARU / NSWRU / xxxRU supposed to accomplish anything when they have masses of people that are unhappy with the situation yelling at them in frustration as they make their best attempts, given their resources, to correct the unhappy situation?



Regardless, the notion that NRC isn't value for money or doesn't develop players is largely abstract and unfalsifiable. I can't concretely prove you wrong just as you can't concretely prove yourself right.



a) "truly developing them in terms of core skills, fitness and preparation for Super (a joke now in itself) or test rugby"



I gave you a handful of examples in which I think it had developed players above and no one has since responded to them. Theres undoubtedly many more examples.



b) "What benefits in terms of long term development and structures is the NRC developing that the Clubs could not as effectively have produced, and not just Shute Clubs, but the clubs in Bris, Melbourne and other capitals?"



As I demonstrated, it pools what are essentially representative teams from various club competitions around the country and bolsters these squads with Super players that weren't selected for the Wallabies.



It allows WA/VIC/ACT players and, most importantly, players-to-be to test themselves against a quality of opposition not available in their local comps. Player better players undoubtedly makes for stronger players.



It allows us to directly compare WA talent vs VIC talent vs NSW talent vs QLD talent and so on.



It has numerous uses, outside of its core developmental qualities (which many agree it is), as a recruitment and talent identification pathway. The Club systems, as they are so fragmented, do not and can not allow for this.

Basically Michael I still watch and post because I love the game and know what it can be. I still hope for it to get there. This weekend the Reds showed the best game from an Australian side this year and played some scintillating Rugby so the potential remains. Most of what I post is far more constructive than then tepid adoring fan boy rubbish that has little to no critical thought behind it.

As for the ARU/NSWRU etc I post critical and scathing comment on them because that is what they deserve. Incompetence ignored is incompetence not only accepted but condoned, that is why we are where we are having these conversations. Unfortunately everything I posted about the Waratahs during the Hickey and Foley years came true. Did they listen? No. Did they listen when fans like me, including an ex Wallaby told Foley and Hickey what the problems with their approach were, when they themselves had a "Fan Forum" to address the collapse in attendances? No. They told us all we were wrong and then when they failed appointed Foley as the coach to lose more fans and burn a few more years. But that's alright, we have to be positive because they were trying. FFS.

As for the NRC being developmental, the problem has been largely accepted (here and elsewhere) that the biggest problem and difference between Australian Rugby and NZ is the execution of core skills. Now to teach somebody the techniques of how to pass and kick is not that hard, even getting execution under no pressure is not that hard, but to train for execution under pressure whilst not hard takes time and repetition and correct critique from coaches. How does a 6 week competition with a couple of extra weeks training achieve that? Concepts such as muscle memory require far longer than 6 weeks to develop the skill execution in depth.

 

[RugbyReg]

yeah, produce is probably the wrong word. But 70 odd players played NRC and from there played Super Rugby. Actually I've just checked my list. It's closer to 90.

And it was never meant to produce talent. But provide it the opportunity to develop and experience higher level rugby.

Guys like Ben Hyne, Les Makin, Joe Powell, Nigel Ah-Wong. They all found their way through NRC before being thrown into Super Rugby.

Isi Naisarani, Matt Phillip, Richard Hardwick, Jermaine Ainsley, Anuri Rangi have snagged Force contracts directly because of their NRC performances.

Sefa Naivalu worked his way through Melbourne club rugby before tearing apart the NRC and snagging a Rebels contract. Then onto the Wallabies. Reece Hodge was not too dissimilar, albeit through different teams.

Adam Korzcyk, Izack Rodda, Lukhan Tui, Izaia Perese, Markus Vanzati, Sam Talakai, Taniela Tupou all had to prove themselves in the NRC to get the chance to play for the Reds.

Jake Gordon, as mentioned, Irae Simone, Dave Lolohea, Jack Dempsey, Ned Hanigan, Tom Robertson. All may have made their way somewhere through club, but the NRC provided an enhanced trial period.

 

[Rebels3]

Went to watch the Tahs today. Disappointed about the result but I'll head out to the next game. Look at the score board at the end of the game. Join us for the next home game on the 21st April. 21st of fricken April. It's the 2nd of April. That's 3 weeks away.
The last home game was against the Brumbies over 2 weeks ago. Before that the 25th of February.
There is no continuity. It drives me nuts.

I hear ya, rebels are due their 2nd bye to this weekend. It's round 7...... its fu$&@!d

 

[Quick Hands]

Perhaps its time you walk away then.

Its very rare I see you post anything constructive or positive in these places.

You clearly don't like what you watch anymore, or a lot of the viewpoints here.

I think this constant "us vs. them" mentality is so acidic in Australian rugby. How is the ARU / NSWRU / xxxRU supposed to accomplish anything when they have masses of people that are unhappy with the situation yelling at them in frustration as they make their best attempts, given their resources, to correct the unhappy situation?

Regardless, the notion that NRC isn't value for money or doesn't develop players is largely abstract and unfalsifiable. I can't concretely prove you wrong just as you can't concretely prove yourself right.

a) "truly developing them in terms of core skills, fitness and preparation for Super (a joke now in itself) or test rugby"

I gave you a handful of examples in which I think it had developed players above and no one has since responded to them. Theres undoubtedly many more examples.

b) "What benefits in terms of long term development and structures is the NRC developing that the Clubs could not as effectively have produced, and not just Shute Clubs, but the clubs in Bris, Melbourne and other capitals?"

As I demonstrated, it pools what are essentially representative teams from various club competitions around the country and bolsters these squads with Super players that weren't selected for the Wallabies.

It allows WA/VIC/ACT players and, most importantly, players-to-be to test themselves against a quality of opposition not available in their local comps. Player better players undoubtedly makes for stronger players.

It allows us to directly compare WA talent vs VIC talent vs NSW talent vs QLD talent and so on.

It has numerous uses, outside of its core developmental qualities (which many agree it is), as a recruitment and talent identification pathway. The Club systems, as they are so fragmented, do not and can not allow for this.

You haven't really demonstrated anything. You're simply putting your interpretation on things which are unquatifiable and thus almost completely subjective.

I like the way that you criticise the "us v them" mentality, but take every opportunity to put the boot into the Shute Shield. No us v them there eh?

Yours views are no more or less valid than anyone else's.

 

[Quick Hands]

it's now produced 70 odd Super Rugby players. Not a bad start.

None of whom would have played super rugby had the NRC not existed?

 

[Gnostic]

yeah, produce is probably the wrong word. But 70 odd players played NRC and from there played Super Rugby. Actually I've just checked my list. It's closer to 90.



And it was never meant to produce talent. But provide it the opportunity to develop and experience higher level rugby.



Guys like Ben Hyne, Les Makin, Joe Powell, Nigel Ah-Wong. They all found their way through NRC before being thrown into Super Rugby.



Isi Naisarani, Matt Phillip, Richard Hardwick, Jermaine Ainsley, Anuri Rangi have snagged Force contracts directly because of their NRC performances.



Sefa Naivalu worked his way through Melbourne club rugby before tearing apart the NRC and snagging a Rebels contract. Then onto the Wallabies. Reece Hodge was not too dissimilar, albeit through different teams.



Adam Korzcyk, Izack Rodda, Lukhan Tui, Izaia Perese, Markus Vanzati, Sam Talakai, Taniela Tupou all had to prove themselves in the NRC to get the chance to play for the Reds.



Jake Gordon, as mentioned, Irae Simone, Dave Lolohea, Jack Dempsey, Ned Hanigan, Tom Robertson. All may have made their way somewhere through club, but the NRC provided an enhanced trial period.

Not going to go through your list Reg, but how many of those were already in EPS's as identified talent? Certainly Tupou was there before he'd finished school and was living with Woody Graham.

The fact is the NRC is about exposure and playing a series of Super trials in a quasi short format comp. between the EPS's with some selected club players added (who were on the cusp or under the eye anyway). It aids the scouts and coaches at the selection/squad table, that is about it.

It is not about development in depth which is what is setting our potential elite players apart from their NZ counterparts and why with all the extra exposure no Australian side has beaten a NZ side this year and only one has a positive point differential, largely achieved by playing other Australian sides.

 

[The torpedo]

None of whom would have played super rugby had the NRC not existed?

Well they may not have, and if they did, they would have played a fair bit worse than the current level they produce at

 

[Rebels3]

For those complaining about the NRC, it's only 3 years old. The structures for the competition are still finding their feet. As someone that played some premier rugby in qld I would of loved the opportunity to play in an nrc style competition (although I'd be the first to admit I wouldn't be good enough to be picked for a team). The reason for this is that the very few times we had anyone with professional experience actually come back to train or heavens forbid play a game with us, it was invaluable. The problem is the premier competition when it is run doesn't allow for participation from any pro players. 6 weeks seeing how they train, etc. even one little 1 percenter makes all the difference the higher level you play. Even just being in owe of being televised is a hurdle to overcome.

Let's evaluate it in 10-15 years time. It's far from pissing money up the wall. Hell I'd even love our nrc champs a match against the itm champs for that little bit more exposure.

 

[RugbyReg]

None of whom would have played super rugby had the NRC not existed?

did I say that?

I would suggest that the NRC has escalated the development of around 80% of the players to make their Super Rugby debut after playing NRC.

Which doesn't include players like Kerevi, Hunt, McMahon to further their development.

 

[TOCC]

None of whom would have played super rugby had the NRC not existed?

This same comment gets said about the Shute Shield and Premier Rugby and continually gets refuted..

It has certainly helped to identify those who are a level above others and with greater potential to step up.

 

[Gnostic]

Let's evaluate it in 10-15 years time. It's far from pissing money up the wall. Hell I'd even love our nrc champs a match against the itm champs for that little bit more exposure.

I think you miss the point R3. Will Rugby in Australia be professional at the end of this Fox deal? Make no mistake people I know and trust with far more financial experience than I have question the viability of not only the Provincial Unions but the ARU, and they predicted the outcomes we are seeing now and the reasons for it. What will happen if a Super side is cut? Will that state/Province still have a NRC side and if so where will the players come from given a large number of the players are Super players not in the Wallabies from that area? Will they be parachuted in, and will that be accepted, and will that grow the pretty small crowd and viewer numbers the NRC has got?

I run a couple of small businesses and when I'm in growth phase if something is not addressing a core developmental need it is pissing the money up the wall, as in developmental phase cash flow is king. Well the ARU has for years been in negative cash flow and we have here a competition which cannot address the core issue facing our elite players, that being core skill execution, because of its very design. So how does that expenditure over the short term look when cash flow is king? Its is reckless and frivolous simply because the lead time of the return is too far away when the return is required early to keep the game afloat. If the game was in rude health and we had the cash like in 2003 it might be a viable prospect, but the ARU through mismanagement and incompetence managed to piss the money up the wall along with a lot of social capital.

 

[Joe King]

In relation to whether cutting a team is really the best way to make the Oz Super Rugby teams more competitive, what do people think about centralisation?

It seems to me that one advantage of it in NZ is that they have all the Super Rugby teams playing a particular similar style that then benefits the allblacks.

It seems like the Crusaders started perfecting particular skills in the late 90’s, which the AB’s then adopted, and which then got adopted by the rest of the Super Rugby teams.

That might be a little simplistic, but there’s at least 3 essential skills (which can win games) that I’ve noticed that the NZ teams perform way better than any of the Oz teams.


I’m just wondering if centralisation has made the difference, where the NZRU has decided on particular skills they would like all of their Super Rugby teams to master, and then been able to make it happen?

 

[Rebels3]

That is a completely different argument to the one of 'is it producing players' or 'what's the benefit of it'.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

(There’s) at least 3 essential skills (which can win games) that I’ve noticed that the NZ teams perform way better than any of the Oz teams.

Wait, let me guess: attack, defence, and set pieces. Was I right?