Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dan54]

Exactly and there are more physical brands of rugby played around the world than in NZ.

Ok so the Aussie teams that say it harder playing the Kiwi teams are obviously bullshitting, it seems almost test level, it is quite intense and fast, I don't play them and never have at level, so I don't know.

 

[Up the Guts]

Ok so the Aussie teams that say it harder playing the Kiwi teams are obviously bullshitting, it seems almost test level, it is quite intense and fast, I don't play them and never have at level, so I don't know.

Physical intensity and difficulty of a match aren't the same thing. For instance, last RWC Japan were a much less bruising and hard-hitting side than a team like Fiji but more difficulty to beat.

 

[Braveheart81]

How much of it is mental I wonder? The great rivalries are probably more taxing mentally and harder to "get up for" week in week out if you're doing it every week versus necessarily being much harder physically.

 

[Dan54]

How much of it is mental I wonder? The great rivalries are probably more taxing mentally and harder to "get up for" week in week out if you're doing it every week versus necessarily being much harder physically.

Could be, but like I say I even hear the Aussie teams say you don't want to play Kiwi teams more than a couple in a row or local grudge matches. Same as almost any top players will say you can't play test rugby continually, the speed of game as well as physicality is more. Some of real good rugby books I have read the players say consistently that after a few tests you need a break, and apparently as it is a step up. I suspect the big thing is you can't 'take foot of gas'! Read Sam Warburton's book if you want to see how taxing it is on players going at topline stuff week after week, when he talks of by 3/4 way through the season he wasn't able to climb onto trampoline to play with his kids, and one of reasons he packed it in end, felt that he could not spend quality time with his kids anymore. I suggesting anyone who compares leagues physicality to topline unions doesn't understand quite how different it is as you tend to be battered from all directions in rugby, well what one of things I put it down too. I do believe players can play almost every week, but I assume it same league you can't be on top of your game every week, too up and down. I remember a few years back when ABs stood down Ben Smith for a couple of test at end of year, Shag saying he was so worn out he was losing 5-6kgs every game he was playing. That is brutal!

 

[Derpus]

^^^
Didn't a couple of kiwi players come out and say they can't play kiwi only derbies because of the physicality. Just another point against cutting a team.

 

[Number 7]

^^^
Didn't a couple of kiwi players come out and say they can't play kiwi only derbies because of the physicality. Just another point against cutting a team.

There has been 4-5 senior players come out and say they think the NZ-only comp is unsustainable. Physicality was one reason cited. Others included touring South Africa being fun and playing the Aussie teams - rugby isolation wasn't attractive to the players quoted:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12349364

 

[sendit]

We need to play more games to force teams to utilize their squad more efficiently

More games mean the competition isn't as cut-throat and teams are more inclined to use their squads more robustly. As it stands if you're a squad member there's a decent chance you won't play a pro game throughout the year.

We should look to a more European model of squad use

I'd ideally like Super 12 - 5 Aus, 5 NZ, either 2 Japanese or 1 Japanese 1 islander. I know Top League is changing but still think there's room for Japanese involvement with "Super" as the elite and Top League as the domestic money maker

Home and Away season plus finals means more games making it more appealing to tv broadcasters, and teams in turn will be more inclined to use their full squads

 

[Brumby Runner]

I'm a bit torn at the moment in terms of what I'd like to see next year. I didn't think I'd enjoy an all Aussie comp but I'm finding it surprisingly enjoyable. Add in a Drua team, maybe one more and I'd tune in. Just not sure how commercially viable that is.

If we go in the Trans tasman direction, I think you need to kill off the Rebels (sorry Rebels fans) and move forward with just the Reds / Brumbies / Tahs, and if Twiggy is happy to privately fund the Force's inclusion in the comp then that's a bonus. We just don't have enough talent to have more than 3 competitive teams, and if they're not going to be winning games them there's no point in going down that road.

Neither the Chiefs nor the Highlanders and possibly the Hurricanes are competitive with the Crusaders. Should they be axed too?

The Brumbies and Reds were competitive this year and the Rebels have been close for a couple of years. The Tahs are on an upward trend and could be near the top in a year or two. Fortunes change. Who's to say any one or more of the Aussie teams won't take out whatever TT competition eventuates in a short while.

No way any team should be cut and with the volume of young talent coming through at least two or three sides can be expected to be near the top every year.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Would there be interest from broadcasters? WOB has previously expressed his opinion that creation of more NZ Super Rugby teams is not a valid option.

IMO it's not but the franchises only exist because Super Rugby exists: if there's no like-for-like replacement for Super Rugby then you don't really need the franchises, at least in their current form. Depending on how many entities you want to end up with you could potentially split all but the Clan in half, or if the sky deal holds up scrap them all & re-invest in the NPC.

 

[Derpus]

IMO it's not but the franchises only exist because Super Rugby exists: if there's no like-for-like replacement for Super Rugby then you don't really need the franchises, at least in their current form. Depending on how many entities you want to end up with you could potentially split all but the Clan in half, or if the sky deal holds up scrap them all & re-invest in the NPC.

But doesn't that undermine the whole point of playing hardball with RA? i. e. Preventing a drop in quality across the comp.

 

[Brumby Runner]

But their main reasoning is that the comp is too hard on the bodies and the matches are like test matches, so they want some easier teams to play against.

I would suggest they can do that by including two more teams (I know all the Kiwi's here say it can't be done).

All part of the urban myth doing the rounds of NZ rugby at the moment.

 

[Braveheart81]

We should look to a more European model of squad use

The problem there is we would need much bigger squads and we'd need to reorganise the season relative to the tests. Taking the best 30-something players out of 4 or 5 teams at the pointy end of the season would be farcical.

I agree in general though that it would be ideal to have our professional teams still playing in August and September.

 

[zer0]

All part of the urban myth doing the rounds of NZ rugby at the moment.

There's multiple first hand accounts from players involved as to the physical toll of NZ derbies. NZR seemingly being eager to overlook those accounts doesn't invalidate them.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

But doesn't that undermine the whole point of playing hardball with RA? i. e. Preventing a drop in quality across the comp.

A 5-team SRAo is too small to be viable so if RA decide to pass on a TT comp & try a variation on ARC/ NRC then NZR's Plan B is likely a variation on the 8 - 10 team comp recommend by Aratipu, just without any Aus involvement. Hopefully it doesn't come to that but "fuck you, we'll do our own thing, then" cuts both ways.

 

[Derpus]

A 5-team SRAo is too small to be viable so if RA decide to pass on a TT comp & try a variation on ARC/ NRC then NZR's Plan B is likely a variation on the 8 - 10 team comp recommend by Aratipu, just without any Aus involvement. Hopefully it doesn't come to that but "fuck you, we'll do our own thing, then" cuts both ways.

Indeed. Just seems pointless. Obvious solution is still a 10 team TT and i have yet to see anything to suggest that the posturing is anything other than idiotic ego.

 

[sunnyboys]

TT - whether it’s 5,4 or 3 Oz teams is just more Super Rugby.

Super Rugby is what has gotten RA to this lowest point.

TT will not rebuild the rugby audience in Oz.

No one seems to be discussing how to rebuild the audience in Australia.

800,000 people across FTA and Fox watched the first Bled test last year.

Why can we only get 60-70k of them to watch a Super Rugby match?

The comp is wrong. The broadcast partner is wrong.

TT on Fox will keep on us on the same downward trajectory we’ve been on for 10 years.

 

[The Honey Badger]

A 5-team SRAo is too small to be viable so if RA decide to pass on a TT comp & try a variation on ARC/ NRC then NZR's Plan B is likely a variation on the 8 - 10 team comp recommend by Aratipu, just without any Aus involvement. Hopefully it doesn't come to that but "fuck you, we'll do our own thing, then" cuts both ways.

2 separate domestic leagues, home and away, followed by a 1 round TT

 

[sendit]

The problem there is we would need much bigger squads and we'd need to reorganise the season relative to the tests. Taking the best 30-something players out of 4 or 5 teams at the pointy end of the season would be farcical.

I agree in general though that it would be ideal to have our professional teams still playing in August and September.

Going off this years dates id go

Super Rugby 6th March till 29th August - 3 inbound tests in July running concurrently with Super Rugby - Rugby Championship/Bledisloe in September

The obvious problem is expanding squad sizes and finding the money to pay the players, but i believe the extra games at favorable time slots thanks to the removal of SA and ARG may help this in some form

 

[Braveheart81]

800,000 people across FTA and Fox watched the first Bled test last year.

Why can we only get 60-70k of them to watch a Super Rugby match?

The comp is wrong. The broadcast partner is wrong.

TT on Fox will keep on us on the same downward trajectory we’ve been on for 10 years.

3.2m people watched State of Origin game 1 last year but the average for an NRL game is only 459k.

We would clearly be in a much better position if a FTA broadcaster had any interest in our other games but they never have and the ratings are nowhere near high enough to indicate they would in the future.

This is the problem that's impossible to overcome. There's no avenue to being widely available on FTA because there isn't enough interest in regular rugby games.

 

[Omar Comin']

2 separate domestic leagues, home and away, followed by a 1 round TT

I think this is possible but would be better with 6 teams each - add the Drua/Latui to the Australian league and the Pacifica team to the NZ tournament. So you'd have 10 rounds in the domestic tournaments followed by a final, and then a 6 week TT tournament where every Australian team plays every NZ team followed by a final between the top team from each country. The latter could be in more of a world cup type format instead but then you'd get all these cases of teams playing each other 3 times in the season.