Where to for Super Rugby?

[Omar Comin']

Any comparison to the A League doesn't really work in my opinion.

They are a sport with a huge following in Australia that needed to tap into part of that audience to be successful. They are struggling to do that.

It has also had the benefit of significant amounts of private equity in individual teams and support through Frank Lowy.

It's comparable in the sense that the A League tends to have similar TV ratings to Super Rugby.

And I think any competition along these lines would require private investment in individual teams. But I see this as being more likely than attracting private equity in Super Rugby. It'd be cheaper and with advantages around competition length and scheduling, and the ARU would be able to give owners more control over their teams. If there was no private equity interest then I don't think it'd work.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It's comparable in the sense that the A League tends to have similar TV ratings to Super Rugby.

And I think any competition along these lines would require private investment in individual teams. But I see this as being more likely than attracting private equity in Super Rugby. It'd be cheaper and with advantages around competition length and scheduling, and the ARU would be able to give owners more control over their teams. If there was no private equity interest then I don't think it'd work.

Well, I can tell you now. If this were to occur the Own The Force initiative would go a long way to shoring them up. Would also bevan interesting model for others to follow.

 

[Omar Comin']

The ARU ceasing top up contracts and lowering the salary cap dramatically would surely result in just about every player close to Wallabies selection relocating overseas. Why would they remain in Australia to earn a fraction of what they currently do?

Most of our top players wouldn't stay in Australia. We'd let them leave and have them back for Wallabies games. But do you see this being any different in say 10 years time if we continue with the status quo? How do we stop the widening of the wage gap between Europe and here? Because if we can't there will reach a tipping point anyway. So how is this situation not inevitable?

 

[Braveheart81]

Most of our top players wouldn't stay in Australia. We'd let them leave and have them back for Wallabies games. But do you see this being any different in say 10 years time if we continue with the status quo? How do we stop the widening of the wage gap between Europe and here? Because if we can't there will reach a tipping point anyway. So how is this situation not inevitable?

If we ended up with a Trans Tasman league that was one of the strongest in the world I think it would be a dramatically different proposition in terms of global interest and the ability to keep more of our best players at home.

That is why I wouldn't be rushing away from SANZAAR in order to have a domestic only league.

If the ARU wants to take a monumental gamble I think they would be better served taking the next TV rights distribution to the casino.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

If we ended up with a Trans Tasman league that was one of the strongest in the world I think it would be a dramatically different proposition in terms of global interest and the ability to keep more of our best players at home.

That is why I wouldn't be rushing away from SANZAAR in order to have a domestic only league.

If the ARU wants to take a monumental gamble I think they would be better served taking the next TV rights distribution to the casino.

Its what we need but I gather the kiwis would rather watch the NPC than watch the provinces clean us up

 

[Braveheart81]

Its what we need but I gather the kiwis would rather watch the NPC than watch the provinces clean us up

Are you really sure that New Zealanders will get sick of watching their teams beat Australia?

Just like Queensland doesn't get sick of beating NSW in Rugby League State of Origin.

That's one of the biggest advantages we have going for us!

 

[zer0]

Are you really sure that New Zealanders will get sick of watching their teams beat Australia?

Just like Queensland doesn't get sick of beating NSW in Rugby League State of Origin.

That's one of the biggest advantages we have going for us!

This is true. I, personally, plan my masturbatory sessions around NZL/AUS Super Rugby matches and Bledisloe tests. Those and Dismal's posts.

 

[No4918]

So consensus is a breakway Aus/NZ league as long as we continue having 3 shit teams so the Kiwis can enjoy watching us get flogged?

 

[Dismal Pillock]

I, personally, plan my masturbatory sessions around NZL/AUS Super Rugby matches and Bledisloe tests. Those and Dismal's posts.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Maybe we need to heed what Melbourne Rebels owners want which is ability to recruit more foreign players - ie. allow higher quota of foreign players for next few years to play for Oz Super Rugby sides whilst stuff at grass roots bubbles through to create more depth / aussie options.....

 

[cyclopath]

Stop it! You're making him hard!

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

So consensus is a breakway Aus/NZ league as long as we continue having 3 shit teams so the Kiwis can enjoy watching us get flogged?

I'd prefer my take on TOCC's Champions League idea. Has both a strong domestic and international component. Has the opportunity to emgage new territories more easily as well.

 

[Ignoto]

So consensus is a breakway Aus/NZ league as long as we continue having 3 shit teams so the Kiwis can enjoy watching us get flogged?

If your into punishment as a form of entertainment, you'd probably get more value for your money hiring a Dominatrix.

 

[No4918]

If your into punishment as a form of entertainment, you'd probably get more value for your money hiring a Dominatrix.

That sounds like more fun, less pain and cheaper than what I currently go through watching the rugby.

 

[dru]

If we are withdrawing from the SANZAAR agreement I think we would take a whack in what we were being distributed for the Wallabies games. South Africa and New Zealand wouldn't be bending over backwards to ensure our revenue share if we walk away from them.

No we dont need to walk from the Championship. WBs need to continue, and we dont lose that income.

From Super Rugby to a domestic comp, lets run with NRC for the purpose. Increase in content, increase in domestic revenue. So there is a net drop in revenue, but not as much as some are implying.

The domestic product wont lose viewership if the games are close-ish. If its entertaining rugby, I think this works with SS or QPR. Recent results Canes v SWs and Rebels otoh will inevitably destroy viewership.

We decide whether or not to run FTA - I think its yesterdays platform and would look to streaming.

Super Rugby becomes the Champions League thing. Stick with SANZAAR. So that revenue is regained, a bit. BUT we take a leaf from SOO.

Aus Red: Qld teams, origin Qld players elsewhere, Vic and WA.
Aus Blue: NSW teams, origin NSW players ACT players.

This way we get the representational thing that I want.

Edit: add in Japan and Fiji where suitable, in the Aus domestic comp would be fine, subject to commercials and travel cost recoup.

 

[Omar Comin']

If we ended up with a Trans Tasman league that was one of the strongest in the world I think it would be a dramatically different proposition in terms of global interest and the ability to keep more of our best players at home.

That is why I wouldn't be rushing away from SANZAAR in order to have a domestic only league.

If the ARU wants to take a monumental gamble I think they would be better served taking the next TV rights distribution to the casino.

I wasn't talking about a Trans-Tasman league though, which I agree is the best option. I was referring to the status quo (or similar, most likely with the loss of a team or two) vs a primarily domestic competition. If the former is just an ultimately doomed struggle to keep as many top players based in Australia as possible (which it is if we can't grow wages at the same speed as European club rugby) then why continue with it when it has so many other disadvantages?

And unless the NZRU suddenly changes their mind about their priorities then getting a Trans-Tasman competition is impossible anytime soon without a Plan B. Planning to go off on our own could actually be a catalyst to getting a Trans Tasman competition because it's hard to see a competition involving predominantly NZ and SA teams as being sustainable, or popular with kiwi audiences.

And that 'monumental gamble' is the model used by virtually all the successful sports in the world including in Australia.

 

[Braveheart81]

No we dont need to walk from the Championship. WBs need to continue, and we dont lose that income.

From Super Rugby to a domestic comp, lets run with NRC for the purpose. Increase in content, increase in domestic revenue. So there is a net drop in revenue, but not as much as some are implying.

The domestic product wont lose viewership if the games are close-ish. If its entertaining rugby, I think this works with SS or QPR. Recent results Canes v SWs and Rebels otoh will inevitably destroy viewership.

We decide whether or not to run FTA - I think its yesterdays platform and would look to streaming.

Super Rugby becomes the Champions League thing. Stick with SANZAAR. So that revenue is regained, a bit. BUT we take a leaf from SOO.

Aus Red: Qld teams, origin Qld players elsewhere, Vic and WA.
Aus Blue: NSW teams, origin NSW players ACT players.

This way we get the representational thing that I want.

Edit: add in Japan and Fiji where suitable, in the Aus domestic comp would be fine, subject to commercials and travel cost recoup.

The basis of the discussion were with Australia walking away from Super Rugby with it still continuing without us. If that happened I don't think we would be left with as generous share of broadcast dollars from the test matches. I imagine the NZRU and SARU would want their pound of flesh for abandoning them.

To go from the 5 Super Rugby teams to a 8 or 10 team domestic league would require wholesale reorganisation of those teams and a whole lot of new professional infrastructure for the new teams. I don't think you would be able to guarantee anywhere near the same salaries as are currently on offer and a lot of the best players would leave. I think it would be crazy not to expect a big drop in revenue to begin with.

I think a streaming model as the sole source of broadcast revenue isn't close to being a reality. The number of subscribers required to make it viable would be so far and away in excess of the sort of numbers you'd get in your first few seasons.

And that 'monumental gamble' is the model used by virtually all the successful sports in the world including in Australia.

Which other sport has ever moved to that model where one of the major requirements was a big decrease in payments to players?

 

[dru]

The basis of the discussion were with Australia walking away from Super Rugby with it still continuing without us. If that happened I don't think we would be left with as generous share of broadcast dollars from the test matches. I imagine the NZRU and SARU would want their pound of flesh for abandoning them.

We need to be ready to walk. Note that there are incontrovertible positions from both SARU and NZRU. We should be the odd man out? Those positions from NZ and SA are not satisfactory for Australia.

It requires negotiation, but there is no reason for The Rugby Championship (and funding therein) to be directly impacted by Super Rugby.

 

[Braveheart81]

We need to be ready to walk. Note that there are incontrovertible positions from both SARU and NZRU. We should be the odd man out? Those positions from NZ and SA are not satisfactory for Australia.

It requires negotiation, but there is no reason for The Rugby Championship (and funding therein) to be directly impacted by Super Rugby.

You surely have to be certain that walking and going alone is a better option than staying if you're going to do it. I'm not convinced it is currently.

If you walk from Super Rugby then surely your ability to negotiate on the test matches decreases. I know the current agreement runs from 2016 to 2020. Opting to leave prior to 2020 could be financially ruinous depending on the agreement. If you stay until 2020 and then say you won't be part of Super Rugby but still want the Rugby Championship to continue, what does the new version of SANZAAR do? They could leave you out altogether or shift the broadcast rights in such a way that reduces your share for the test matches. At that point they would know that your entire plan is reliant on that test match revenue. They would likely know far in advance because there would need to be a lot of planning for a new domestic league starting in 2021.

It's all very complicated and I don't see an option where Australia goes it alone without incurring a vast amount of pain.

 

[dru]

You surely have to be certain that walking and going alone is a better option than staying if you're going to do it. I'm not convinced it is currently.

If you walk from Super Rugby then surely your ability to negotiate on the test matches decreases.

Fristly it seems to me to be self-evident that continuing the same path is ultimately ruinous to Australian rugby. But yes, agree we dont leave if staying works.

Currently the well-broadcast requirement of NZ to continue with SA is something we should be surprised by. And the SARU requirements are very likely imo to be not just more of the same but getting worse. Both positions quite well broadcast.

And if we are not offered something that works for us then we need an alternative and we need to have the courage of our convictions.

I dont agree with your assessment that somehow SANZAAR would become commercially vindictive. Its a commercial proposition that stacks or doesnt.

Otoh I CAN see SARU doing the sleight of hand on revenue being attributed to Currie Cup, not Super Rugby. and that is behaviour that is impacting us right now.