Where to for Super Rugby?

[hoggy]

I don't think Hoggy in current market we could even support an exclusive 6 team domestic oz competition..just not enough interest to make it a viable commercial product...

I think if we did something like this back say 2003 or even 6-7 years ago when interest was much higher it could have worked but I think damage so great that going to take a lot to win fans back and hence i just can't see commercial broadcasters etc willing to take it on and make it hence commercially viable.

I have come to the conclusion as long as NZ play ball we need NZ (and proably more so as Japan with own pro league made Japanese involvement in a competition we are involved in less likely).

I use to think probably otherwise but I think cold hard reality has set in for me.

Get an attractive competition in Asia that is time zone friendly and more innovative and recover lost ground maybe in another decade we could then look at our own domestic pro competition but at this point looks a pipedream.

Look your not wrong Rugbynutter, I agree there's just been to much damage, and we are literally down to hard core supporters, I have followed this sport since I was a kid, but my sons playing league.

And your right maybe the answer is an Asian friendly competition, but my point is still the same, who drives that change, I mean the Kiwis have already signed up until 2025, so what part of f---k you Australia we're okay don't we get.

So we've already signed up to whatever shit sandwich is on offer, f---k even Foxtel can't be bothered. So maybe it comes down to 2026 what happens then, because nothing is gonna change unless someone gets off there arse.

Why isn't Castle and the RA stating now, 2026 we want change and we're openly exploring that and want that to happen.

I agree its cold hard reality, but we're the only ones that can change that reality.

 

[half]

The Super Rugby model is under extreme pressure.

For Australian Rugby if Super Rugby fell over then there is nothing to replace it.

As it stands there are fourth general scenarios, first is all things remain the same with a 14 team competition hope for the best, second broadcast revenue falls dramatically, third is South Africa leaves for the northern hemisphere and an Australian / NZ competitions is formed, fourth is South Africa is replaced with the introduction of Japan & Argentine .

All of these options aside from the number 3 is essentially Australian Rugby relying on overseas nations to bring in the dollars. Even 3 has NZ.

I would argue Australian Rugby’s biggest issue is the falling participation rate especially of quality young sports people. As an aside to this so few professional rugby teams mean’s any aspiring young athlete will more than likely choose, League, AFL, Football, Basketball & Cricket over rugby simply because of the professional player numbers in these codes.

Whether this is possible allowing for internal power struggles and ego’s being bruised. Privatise say 12 Australian teams and let them play out of small grounds.

Neither RA or the State Unions have the enterprise or capital to get us out of the hole we are in.

Before you answer my post, answer this question first, would you cancel your Fox subscription if we moved to 12 local teams.

The general consensus of my post seems to be twofold, first the cost and second the appeal.

Subscription based broadcasters be they "Streaming" or more "Traditional subscription" rely on numbers.

My question at the end is who will cancel their subscription if we have a local league. My guess is very few. Secondly if we have more teams I would argue the new teams will bring additional subs, and sponsors.

Given we can still sell internationals my gut is we may actually have an increase in funds.

Now the appeal, so we are seriously saying we are scared of other sports especially league and AFL. IMO beyond gutless and does not reflect on the game itself where courage and determination and hard work get results and earns respect.

If we don't privatise we shall cease to exist sooner or latter, no one has the money or brains to fix.

At least lets give it a go before it's to late.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Look your not wrong Rugbynutter, I agree there's just been to much damage, and we are literally down to hard core supporters, I have followed this sport since I was a kid, but my sons playing league.

And your right maybe the answer is an Asian friendly competition, but my point is still the same, who drives that change, I mean the Kiwis have already signed up until 2025, so what part of f---k you Australia we're okay don't we get.

So we've already signed up to whatever shit sandwich is on offer, f---k even Foxtel can't be bothered. So maybe it comes down to 2026 what happens then, because nothing is gonna change unless someone gets off there arse.

Why isn't Castle and the RA stating now, 2026 we want change and we're openly exploring that and want that to happen.

I agree its cold hard reality, but we're the only ones that can change that reality.

I wish I was smart enough to know the answer Hoggy...but yes you are right we need to be working to something different from Super Rugby - but as others pointed out despite SA not being what we want as fans - SA helps bring in the dosh...but yes at what cost to long term prospects of the game in our region.

We need help - working with the Twiggy's of the world got to be what we work towards as I can't think of any other billionnaires prepared to make a major investment in rugby in the region....

 

[hoggy]

We need to figure something out because the concept of a British and Irish league has popped up again with CVC apparently the ones pushing it. If this were to come about I'd dare say they'd look to jettison the Sth Africans (and potentially the Italians) from the mix and we'll be back to square one again.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50608122

Looks more than just a rumor. Your right where does that leave SA

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50608122

Looks more than just a rumor. Your right where does that leave SA

It doesn't surprise me in the least that this has come back up in the wake of CVC investing in both the 6Ns and Pro14 alongside the Premiership. As they'd likely see a far greater potential for higher returns via a combined league structured as suggested by some in a very similar manner to the NFL.

It also presents some really interesting questions as to the future of the 4 non B&I teams. There are 13 members of the ownership group behind the PRL (who admin the Premiership) and there's buckley's any of them will be willing to lie down and die to accommodate any of the Italian or SA squads. Nor will any of the 'Celtic' teams.

Which could then leave us in the unenviable position SA wanting to shoehorn the Cheetahs and Kings back into Super Rugby and the Italians out in the cold.

Though, I will admit that if it were to happen that a potential opportunity for Super Rugby could arise to split the competition into two 9 team divisions playing home and away with the top 4 from each playing in a finals series. Or even running separate divisional championships and a overall championship game between the respective winners alternating the host on an annual basis.

 

[dru]

^^^ Sorry, 2x 9 team divisions? Could you expand?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

^^^ Sorry, 2x 9 team divisions? Could you expand?

It would depend on what comes of the B&I League speculation but if both the SA and Italian contingent are jettisoned they need to go somewhere. While the likes of Benneton and Zebre could be reabsorbed into the Italian structures they won't provide the Union with the requisite competitive levels to foster the Italian national team. Especially now that they are actually beginning to produce fairly competitive U20s teams.

We could almost guarantee that if SA is uninvited they'll be looking to renter the Cheetahs and Kings into Super Rugby. That would give them 6 teams. Argentina will have the Jaguares. Considering much of the justification of the switch was the time zone friendly nature of the competition. If both are jettisoned it may not be that much of a stretch to see the olive branch extended to the Italians to just join the same division as SA and Arg. The amount of travel wouldn't be all that much different overall either. The other division would a combined Aus/NZ one. Which with our 4 and their 5 would be another 9. Home and away. Top 4 in the Divisional Finals with the winner of each division playing each other in the Super Rugby Championship game.

That's 16 rounds (17 weeks with each team having a bye round) plus 2 weeks for divisional finals with a week off (so the Championship game will be played a fortnight after the Divisional Final) between the Divisional finals to allow for travel. All up Super Rugby would consist of 135 games across 21 total weeks of play.

 

[dru]

It would depend (plenty of detail follows)

Thanks WCR need to wrap my head around that. Knee jerk reaction is a desire for RA to get out quick with a domestic comp. But it is a knee jerk.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Thanks WCR need to wrap my head around that. Knee jerk reaction is a desire for RA to get out quick with a domestic comp. But it is a knee jerk.

I'd love a domestic comp. but even noting the response to such suggestions here that would be unlikely. What this would achieve would be the next best thing. A Trans-Tasman league as part of a wider time zone aligned structure.

 

[dru]

I'd love a domestic comp. but even noting the response to such suggestions here that would be unlikely. What this would achieve would be the next best thing. A Trans-Tasman league as part of a wider time zone aligned structure.

It offers supposed opportunity for everyone but Australia. It commits possibly in perpetuity RA to a non-National footprint and a confused approach to WA and GRR.

What am I missing?

 

[Dan54]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50608122

Looks more than just a rumor. Your right where does that leave SA

Intersting if this goes ahead, seems not too many are convinced. Also interesting to note a few peopla wouldn't be sad to see the end of the SA teams up there, not sure it as popular as they had hoped.

 

[Rebels3]

Can’t remember where I heard it from but some talk about CVC now turning focus to SA. Positive to all this is that the firm (if you like them or not) have identified that there is big money to be earned in rugby that isn’t been looked at yet.

 

[hoggy]

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bu...p7x6gsMdFU9P92zGikFQHcKMQ3D37Ahzn0OJkI5jO82g8

Where theirs smoke???

“Has anyone engaged Andrew Forrest to see what the options are for constitution of a new rugby competition and how his ‘Rapid Rugby’ competition could be compatible? The Wallabies winning 75 per cent of their matches is critical, but the game shopfront is Super Rugby, and this is the most competitive sports market in the world.”

“Has anyone engaged Andrew Forrest to see what the options are for constitution of a new rugby competition and how his ‘Rapid Rugby’ competition could be compatible? The Wallabies winning 75 per cent of their matches is critical, but the game shopfront is Super Rugby, and this is the most competitive sports market in the world.”

Now i'm no fan of O'Neil, but until we address the above, everything else is just pissing in the wind.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Can’t remember where I heard it from but some talk about CVC now turning focus to SA. Positive to all this is that the firm (if you like them or not) have identified that there is big money to be earned in rugby that isn’t been looked at yet.

Yeah but if I were RA and the NZRU I wouldn't be overly comfortable with them looking just at Sth Africa. Says to me the rumoured B&I League they are supposedly pushing might not be purely just B&I Afterall.

 

[hoggy]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...ir-calls-for-ra-overhaul-20191209-p53i9l.html

I find it ironic with imho Super rugby being the biggest single issue facing the code here and the the failure to address that situation over many years now, and with the new broadcast rights coming up, how can that situation be addressed when SA & NZ have already signed of on there Broadcast agreements.

So on one hand you have Castle & Co negotiating an agreement, yet the franchise bosses basically saying they are going to go bust to that same agreement which appears already signed of on.

What are they selling, a bunch of Test Matches.???

 

[half]

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...ir-calls-for-ra-overhaul-20191209-p53i9l.html

I find it ironic with imho Super rugby being the biggest single issue facing the code here and the the failure to address that situation over many years now, and with the new broadcast rights coming up, how can that situation be addressed when SA & NZ have already signed of on there Broadcast agreements.

So on one hand you have Castle & Co negotiating an agreement, yet the franchise bosses basically saying they are going to go bust to that same agreement which appears already signed of on.

What are they selling, a bunch of Test Matches.???

That is some scary article.

I am starting to feel sorry for Castle, non of the many issues she is dealing with are her creation, and with NZ & SA going their own merry ways regardless of our position, there is little she can do.

Its ironic for teams to be saying if we get less money we are in trouble. Like captain obvious this is what this thread has been saying for some years now.

What I don't see is any kind of planning by teams or anyone else just expecting that RA will sort it out.

Hope I get the names right in this if not I am sorry but the substance is 100% even if I get the names wrong.

Brisbane Roar are in either the last or second last year of their stadium deal at Suncorp. They have been using I think a 10K stadium called Dolfin park [could be wrong name] this year for some matches. Anywho the Roar are saying they can't fill or afford Suncorp and are looking for a smaller cheaper option.

The Roar are looking to move to a cheaper stadium and are in discussion with broadcasters about lighting etc.

Why can't Super Rugby teams start similar studies. The Tahs at North Sydney Oval as a long term option etc.

 

[Lindommer]

Dolphin Stadium in Redcliffe. Home of the Redcliffe Dolphins RL Club, seats about 10,000. They've decided they'd like to have a full stadium rather than a large empty one.

There was an article put up a coupla weeks ago about the Roar not liking small crowds in a big stadium, read here. https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/fowler-backs-boutique-stadium-for-brisbane-20191130-p53fnd.html

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Is it just me but I just don't get the current Super Rugby Broadcast deal negotiations....

Here is what I don't get. We know the Super Rugby product is stale and is a rapidly declining product that lacks fan appeal.

Yet here we are with negotiations for a new broadcast deal where major players like Foxtel have the negotiating power to deman more innovation and complete revamp in the Super Rugby Product (think innovation approach taken with GRR).

Yet so far the best we have a revised Super Rugby Product is a 15 round comp (minus the Sunwolves after the great Japan success story and commercial growth and interest in Japanese rugby) which leaves us with even less home games and no other changes.

What part of the concept of absolute stupidity is with SANZAAR, the domestic Rugby Boards of each of SANZAAR countries and indeed the broadcasters....

Meanwhile with a flawed Super Rugby Product that fans continue to desert on mass and alienates rugby fans we lock ourselves into this for a X year cycle.....

We clearly have the wrong people running this game and clearly pretty ordinary broadcasters involved - we need it seems PE investors wanting to come in and demand changes as proactive investors like you are seeing in Northern Hemisphere (with alignment of Irish-Welsh-Scotland-English into single pro comp being driven by PE investors)

 

[cyclopath]

Is it just me but I just don't get the current Super Rugby Broadcast deal negotiations..

Here is what I don't get. We know the Super Rugby product is stale and is a rapidly declining product that lacks fan appeal.

Yet here we are with negotiations for a new broadcast deal where major players like Foxtel have the negotiating power to deman more innovation and complete revamp in the Super Rugby Product (think innovation approach taken with GRR).

Yet so far the best we have a revised Super Rugby Product is a 15 round comp (minus the Sunwolves after the great Japan success story and commercial growth and interest in Japanese rugby) which leaves us with even less home games and no other changes.

What part of the concept of absolute stupidity is with SANZAAR, the domestic Rugby Boards of each of SANZAAR countries and indeed the broadcasters..

Meanwhile with a flawed Super Rugby Product that fans continue to desert on mass and alienates rugby fans we lock ourselves into this for a X year cycle...

We clearly have the wrong people running this game and clearly pretty ordinary broadcasters involved - we need it seems PE investors wanting to come in and demand changes as proactive investors like you are seeing in Northern Hemisphere (with alignment of Irish-Welsh-Scotland-English into single pro comp being driven by PE investors)

You cannot really compare what is happening in UK / Ireland / Europe with respect to revenue and so on with us. Much easier to have bolder plans with a much larger revenue pot from broadcasting (just for starters) and minimal logistic issues (compared to a comp over a dozen time zones or more and so on). PE more likely to tip in money when they see an easier pathway to develop the comp and see real returns.
The notion that we just go Aus / NZ / PI and / or Japan sounds good, in theory. But who will pay? Broadcasters won't pay more; FTA is unrealistic - why would they put low-rating rubbish (from their POV) on prime-time - they just won't. PE are not likely to throw huge money into a building a comp with unknown prospects.
I don't see an easy fix, sadly.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Cutting SA out is such a narrow, Australia-centric approach. I'm sure I've written this elsewhere, but there are two major flaws here:

NZ tend to view SA as the old enemy, not Australia - particularly given the recent weakness of Australian squads; and

SuperSport is the largest source of revenue in the current agreement.