Where to for Super Rugby?

[wamberal]

Ok Tomikin, I will write to NZRU immediately, and get them to issue an apology

An apology is not enough, Dan, we want action!!!! What do we want? The Bledisloe!!! When do we want it? NOW!!!

 

[Quick Hands]

How is NZ the leader of SANZAAR? All 3 countries have same vote dru, wasn't it Saffas who were blamed for moving on Sunwolves? Your ability to blame NZ for all Aus rugby's woes is quite enterprising, but shows that the problem maybe that to a nimberso called rugby supporters here are living with head in sand unfortunately, and can't see that Aus rugby's problems if they have them are caused by Aus rugby, noone else!! mind you mate, I quite prepared to listen to the instances where NZ is to blame for Super rugby's problems.

NZ isn't to blame for Super Rugby's problems. Super Rugby is the problem. It suits NZ more than it suits others in that it provides a lengthy and high intensity AB selection trial process. I note from articles in the NZ press that even in NZ fewer and fewer people are watching Super Rugby, but it doesn't matter because rugby is your national sport and the game there will still prosper regardless of how many people watch Super Rugby. Rugby still receives wall to wall coverage in NZ. SANZAAR have actually achieved what nobody thought was possible, which is to create a rugby competition which even Kiwis lose interest in, but I digress.

Australia is almost polar opposite in terms of our rugby situation. Fewer people watching Super Rugby in Australia is a serious issue for the code. Outside the Wallabies, professional rugby rarely gets a mention on the evening news and is lucky to get a quarter of a page in the major papers about 6 or 8 pages in from the back. For better or worse, the sporting model which the Australian public want is a national domestic competition based on geographically aligned clubs. If rugby in Australia can't get a model like that to work, then the current death spiral will just go on until the Wallabies go the way of the super clubs/franchises.

As has been noted, there are about 150 people in Australia who do well out of SANZAAR. That's not sustainable.

So no, NZ have no duty or responsibility to make rugby succeed in Australia and I wouldn't expect them to. We're up to our chins in manure because of decisions that our administrators have made or not made over 20 years. We can't be blaming others.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

NZ isn't to blame for Super Rugby's problems. Super Rugby is the problem. It suits NZ more than it suits others in that it provides a lengthy and high intensity AB selection trial process. I note from articles in the NZ press that even in NZ fewer and fewer people are watching Super Rugby, but it doesn't matter because rugby is your national sport and the game there will still prosper regardless of how many people watch Super Rugby. Rugby still receives wall to wall coverage in NZ. SANZAAR have actually achieved what nobody thought was possible, which is to create a rugby competition which even Kiwis lose interest in, but I digress.

Australia is almost polar opposite in terms of our rugby situation. Fewer people watching Super Rugby in Australia is a serious issue for the code. Outside the Wallabies, professional rugby rarely gets a mention on the evening news and is lucky to get a quarter of a page in the major papers about 6 or 8 pages in from the back. For better or worse, the sporting model which the Australian public want is a national domestic competition based on geographically aligned clubs. If rugby in Australia can't get a model like that to work, then the current death spiral will just go on until the Wallabies go the way of the super clubs/franchises.

As has been noted, there are about 150 people in Australia who do well out of SANZAAR. That's not sustainable.

So no, NZ have no duty or responsibility to make rugby succeed in Australia and I wouldn't expect them to. We're up to our chins in manure because of decisions that our administrators have made or not made over 20 years. We can't be blaming others.

Doesn't necessarily need to be purely domestic either. Just fit more into our time zones.

 

[hoggy]

Doesn't necessarily need to be purely domestic either. Just fit more into our time zones.

What about a combination of our current Super and GRR teams, you should be able to come up with an 8/10 team competition.

With games in our timezone, local derbies (I would push for a 2nd team in NSW), with games Fri/Sat/Sun each week, also a genuine winter calendar, not some comp that finishes in June, give the competition preference, don't treat it like some unwanted cousin, it is not some plaything for the sole use of the Test team.

Agreed the economics of this means you have to accept certain realities, you build from the base.

Super rugby is great, you only have to watch last week semi finals, but that's the point no one was. you can't just ignore that fact.

" For better or worse, the sporting model which the Australian public want is a national domestic competition based on geographically aligned clubs."

As Quick Hands wrote, the longer the RA administrators ignore this fact, then the death spiral will just continue.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

What about a combination of our current Super and GRR teams, you should be able to come up with an 8/10 team competition.

With games in our timezone, local derbies (I would push for a 2nd team in NSW), with games Fri/Sat/Sun each week, also a genuine winter calendar, not some comp that finishes in June, give the competition preference, don't treat it like some unwanted cousin, it is not some plaything for the sole use of the Test team.

Agreed the economics of this means you have to accept certain realities, you build from the base.

Super rugby is great, you only have to watch last week semi finals, but that's the point no one was. you can't just ignore that fact.

" For better or worse, the sporting model which the Australian public want is a national domestic competition based on geographically aligned clubs."

As Quick Hands wrote, the longer the RA administrators ignore this fact, then the death spiral will just continue.

Our 4 plus the Force and potentially another Aus based team plus Fiji and Samoa, HK and the AP Dragons would give you 10. That'd work. Which wouldn't be the worst outcome actually. NZ and SA including the Jaguares could form a 10 team competition themselves and both could compete over a double round robin season. In the 2nd season a Cup competition could be implemented (4 pools of 5 teams) which could be fit in via designated Cup weeks either stand alone or coupled two together.

The total season length would be 26 including all in season games both regular and Cup as well as finals. Tests could be still be accommodated by moving them to mid week games. Could then move into an expanded RC featuring Aus, NZ, SA, Arg, Japan and Fiji. Which could also involve promotion/relegation with a 2nd Div. involving the USA, Canada, Samoa, Tonga plus two more.

 

[dru]

Our 4 plus the Force and potentially another Aus based team plus Fiji and Samoa, HK and the AP Dragons would give you 10. That'd work. Which wouldn't be the worst outcome actually. NZ and SA including the Jaguares could form a 10 team competition themselves and both could compete over a double round robin season. In the 2nd season a Cup competition could be implemented (4 pools of 5 teams) which could be fit in via designated Cup weeks either stand alone or coupled two together.

The total season length would be 26 including all in season games both regular and Cup as well as finals. Tests could be still be accommodated by moving them to mid week games. Could then move into an expanded RC featuring Aus, NZ, SA, Arg, Japan and Fiji. Which could also involve promotion/relegation with a 2nd Div. involving the USA, Canada, Samoa, Tonga plus two more.

Loving it!

Make way for the Kiwis if and when they wake up, entry on our rules.

X prime time TV solved
X domestic opportunity solved
X product worthy of marketing in Aus, we only need a few %age points

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Loving it!

Make way for the Kiwis if and when they wake up, entry on our rules.

X prime time TV solved
X domestic opportunity solved
X product worthy of marketing in Aus, we only need a few %age points

I see it as satisfying all our needs. We need a more regional focus that also possesses stronger commercial opportunities while NZ and SA want to maintain their relationship for development reasons. They can have that by forming their own 10 competition with Arg while we maintain a small degree of crossover with the Super Cup.

None of what I've suggested threatens the SANZAAR alliance in any way, shape or form. Just how it competes among its members. With the NC concept falling through SANZAAR could also look to seize more influence going forward by expanding not only the RC proper but by implementing a 2nd Div. where they could get really cheeky and alongside the 4 I've mentioned invite two from Europe (if were looking at potential upside in terms of development and commercial opportunities that would be Russia and Spain) to be involved.

 

[Braveheart81]

I agree we need a meaningful competition that runs through test season. Where does your proposed 26 week comp start and finish?

The problem with playing through test season is the size of squads. This could work when players are spread out between more teams but with the current four teams the squads would need to be massively larger to deal with a few games a season which wouldn't be financially sound.

You then can't really have a situation where the culmination of the competition is when all the best players are missing for international duty.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I agree we need a meaningful competition that runs through test season. Where does your proposed 26 week comp start and finish?

The problem with playing through test season is the size of squads. This could work when players are spread out between more teams but with the current four teams the squads would need to be massively larger to deal with a few games a season which wouldn't be financially sound.

You then can't really have a situation where the culmination of the competition is when all the best players are missing for international duty.

February through September. So you'll likely still have depending on when you start it 6-8 weeks left in the competition left to play including finals. Would also be part of the purpose of looking to build the bridges with GRR which would mean we'd have 5 teams involved potentially 6. Which would help in ensuring all teams play a minimum of 22 games of which they'll host 11.

 

[hoggy]

I agree we need a meaningful competition that runs through test season. Where does your proposed 26 week comp start and finish?

The problem with playing through test season is the size of squads. This could work when players are spread out between more teams but with the current four teams the squads would need to be massively larger to deal with a few games a season which wouldn't be financially sound.

You then can't really have a situation where the culmination of the competition is when all the best players are missing for international duty.

It is a good point, but again highlights how the set up suits NZ more than Australia, our domestic season has effectively ended by the beginning of July. Yet the whole of the Australian sporting landscape is just gearing up for August/September footy, and rugby is missing in action, yes the Wallabies are playing but you are essentially giving away the competitive advantage to your rivals.

The issue is highlighted more by the codes position here, they are more than happy with the ITM cup as it is an extension of the national game, but over here you are never going to get more market penetration with the NRC (sorry it might as well just be bloody social darts)

But as a compromise look at extending the season to the 1 or 2nd week in August (and a small crossover of 1/2 weeks for any Test players), but this gives the competition here from March (rugby should not be played in February), a 22/23 week season.

 

[Braveheart81]

February through September. So you'll likely still have depending on when you start it 6-8 weeks left in the competition left to play including finals. Would also be part of the purpose of looking to build the bridges with GRR which would mean we'd have 5 teams involved potentially 6. Which would help in ensuring all teams play a minimum of 22 games of which they'll host 11.

You'd definitely need the international players spread out over at least 6 teams to make it reasonable.

I still think you'd have to find a way to make sure they are available to play finals though.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

You'd definitely need the international players spread out over at least 6 teams to make it reasonable.

I still think you'd have to find a way to make sure they are available to play finals though.

Are you referring to the RC? Because I actually addressed that by looking to have that rescheduled until after the finals of my suggested structure. So you'd have league/Cup games from late Feb/early Mar-Sept with mid-week Test matches during the the July window with the RC kicking off after that's all finished. So you'd have the best possible talent available during the finals series.

This would deliver a Rugby season stretching Late Feb/early Match to November. Roughly 9 months. And with the Cup concept you could also use league games to double up as Cup ties as not to have too many games against league opponents in one season. Which will also ease the overall number of games.

 

[Braveheart81]

Are you referring to the RC? Because I actually addressed that by looking to have that rescheduled until after the finals of my suggested structure. So you'd have competition/Cup games from late Feb/early Mar-Sept with mid-week Test matches during the the July window with the RC kicking off after that's all finished. So you'd have the best possible talent available during the finals series.

I don't think rescheduling test matches is a realistic option. Even moreso is this is a primarily Australian competition that is not relevant to our main rivals.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I don't think rescheduling test matches is a realistic option. Even moreso is this is a primarily Australian competition that is not relevant to our main rivals.

Part of the reason I'm suggesting a little wiggle room for scheduling which could bring the start forward a little while only really pushing the RC back 4-6 weeks. There would be benefits for both SA and NZ. Their AB and Boks could go back to the ITM Cup and Currie Cups helping to breathe new life into those structures if they elected to not structure their set up along similar lines.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

NZ isn't to blame for Super Rugby's problems. Super Rugby is the problem. It suits NZ more than it suits others in that it provides a lengthy and high intensity AB selection trial process. I note from articles in the NZ press that even in NZ fewer and fewer people are watching Super Rugby, but it doesn't matter because rugby is your national sport and the game there will still prosper regardless of how many people watch Super Rugby. Rugby still receives wall to wall coverage in NZ. SANZAAR have actually achieved what nobody thought was possible, which is to create a rugby competition which even Kiwis lose interest in, but I digress.



Australia is almost polar opposite in terms of our rugby situation. Fewer people watching Super Rugby in Australia is a serious issue for the code. Outside the Wallabies, professional rugby rarely gets a mention on the evening news and is lucky to get a quarter of a page in the major papers about 6 or 8 pages in from the back. For better or worse, the sporting model which the Australian public want is a national domestic competition based on geographically aligned clubs. If rugby in Australia can't get a model like that to work, then the current death spiral will just go on until the Wallabies go the way of the super clubs/franchises.



As has been noted, there are about 150 people in Australia who do well out of SANZAAR. That's not sustainable.



So no, NZ have no duty or responsibility to make rugby succeed in Australia and I wouldn't expect them to. We're up to our chins in manure because of decisions that our administrators have made or not made over 20 years. We can't be blaming others.

My concern is more than ever Super Rugby viewers in OZ are NZ's living in oz.....as oz interest in Super Rugby for sure dropped to ridiculously low levels.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Ok Tomikin, I will write to NZRU immediately, and get them to issue an apology

Don't worry RA is one big apology....

 

[dru]

My concern is more than ever Super Rugby viewers in OZ are NZ's living in oz...as oz interest in Super Rugby for sure dropped to ridiculously low levels.

Yep, maybe not quite that obvious, but clearly we are met by as many NZRU apologists here as RA apologists.

Too harsh? Just what I see. Either way, there increasingly seems to be an obvious alternate plan going forward and an equally determined positioning that it "is too late". Pro rugby in Aus has hit rock bottom in terms of numbers, but not in terms of finance.

 

[Quick Hands]

Yep, maybe not quite that obvious, but clearly we are met by as many NZRU apologists here as RA apologists.

Too harsh? Just what I see. Either way, there increasingly seems to be an obvious alternate plan going forward and an equally determined positioning that it "is too late". Pro rugby in Aus has hit rock bottom in terms of numbers, but not in terms of finance.

I can only give my experience which is that as someone who was once at every Waratah home game and regularly watched the Friday and/or Saturday evening games on TV, that I haven't been to a game for three years and haven't watched a full game on TV for 2 years (in both cases counting 2019 as one of the years). When I talk to the blokes I grew up with, who all played rugby and we all used to follow the super rugby that none of them watch it anymore. Like me they either watch Manly in the SS or some are involved in their local subbies club and that's their rugby outlet. We all look around and none of us know any rugby supporters of our vintage who are any different.

When SS clubs are drawing crowds of up to 7 or 8 thousand (admittedly only selected games) and the Waratahs struggle to draw 10 thousand it says something and what is says is that something is seriously wrong.

I think that the statistic is that somewhere between 40% and 50% of rugby players in Australia are of Pacific Islander heritage and another significant section of the player population are made up of Kiwi or British expats then the we see that a whole generation of players, supporters and viewers from the local population just don't engage with rugby anymore (Or they do to a limited extent).

Take out the Pacific Islanders and the boys at independent schools and there's almost nothing left. (And there's and increasing percentage of private schoolboys whose first allegiance is to league rather than rugby, but they play rugby because there is no league option at school).

Go over to the AAGPS 2019 thread where someone posted the 1981 Australian Schoolboys rugby team breakdown and 11 out of the 16 NSW players in the team went to a state high school. It provides as graphic an illustration of the problem as can be provided. Today, most of the schools that those boys came from don't even play rugby.

Getting back to the % of Pacific Islanders playing rugby in Australia - for all the talk of diversity amongst the elite leaders of the game, there isn't ONE person of Pacific Island heritage on either the RA board or the NSWRU board. Interesting.

 

[The Honey Badger]

^^^ One of those posts that "Like" doesn't seem quite right, but great post anyway.

 

[half]

Getting back to the % of Pacific Islanders playing rugby in Australia - for all the talk of diversity amongst the elite leaders of the game, there isn't ONE person of Pacific Island heritage on either the RA board or the NSWRU board. Interesting.

Interesting question so I looked at all the Football boards and most have a very ANGLO feel not only rugby the only exception is soccer which is the smallest and seems the most varied.
Rugby
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Tim Gavin President


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