Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rugbynutter39]

Fully agree on AJ.

Thank you for your question re my alternatives are they any good, are they viable and compare to other posters.

Again thank you, its a fair and reasonable question so let me explain.

Some context, my work experience has often involved detailed analysis of business models and future gazing and many of my mentors where very tough on how you formed your opinion and a golden rule was to be dispassionate meaning only let the facts speak.

First part why I have I always said a National Domestic Competition is essential. For me its obvious I am unaware of any main stream successful competition anywhere in the world that is not a NDC. Further in Australia AFL, NRL, are build on the back of a NDC in addition so to is soccer & basketball, you can add today netball. So it was never going to work.

Second part why use a US based model. Reason if you look at how their system work especially the MLS it is a great way to invite business people in so they have control of the NDC but the method in which it operates is still directed by the national governing body.

Third part, viable and compare to others, IMO opinion and its humble. No Union in Australia has either the capital, both financial and intellectual ability to solve our issues, as for RA its impossible to reform it, so conflicted so many back room deals, so much baggage. We need the capital, connections, and business smarts of the business community to get us out of this. As for Shute Shield, Nobody Really Cares none have capital or any capacity to grow at a speed needed to stop rugby falling to hockey status.

As for""clutching at straws"", hopefully I am not, hopefully my suggestion make sense, if nothing else and it gives me no pleasure almost everything I have been saying will happen has and what I am saying now is rugby unions and boards today are incapable of solving our issues. We need capital, smarts and I can only see the business community having these.

Great post half. Enjoyed reading yours and others posts on options as clearly we need an alternative option to the status quo and presenting other options in forums like this should be encouraged as clearly no easy answers. You and others present valid considerdations to consider to a problem there is no easy answer to. I would be the first to admit I don’t know what the answer is except that status quo is clearly not an option and nor even more so is a super rugby round robin comp of 14 teams which is current team minus Sunwolves. And if recent Foxtel media on its financial position and cuts to football and rugby not sending alarm bells to RA to act then it really is time to tear it down and start again.

Ps. Read your post again half. Powerful messages here which is RA has too much baggage to lead on this and second attractiveness of MLR in USA business model of private investors which is twiggys rapid rugby model. You are so right here as more you made me realIse keys to our success is not leaving this to RA.

 

[Adam84]

Super rugby isn't financially viable either. If it wasn't part of a larger broadcast deal involving test matches it would struggle to get much at all from the broadcasters. But financial viability isn't really the key factor - what's needed is a form of competition which will attract some interest from the Australian sporting public.

If we can't get a percentage of former supporters back, attract some new ones and be visible for the casual sports fan then rugby will not survive in the 21st century sports market.

Yes you’re correct there.
However super rugby in the broader context of the professional of Australian Rugby though is, or was financially viable. We’ve now shifted to a position where it is no longer, or it certainly won’t be if Foxtel value it any lower.

Its a good point you raise, is that we can just consider Super Rugby or the alternative solution in isolation, it needs to be considered holistically as to how that flows or impacts on test rugby as well.

How, why and what the impact of one competition has on the other needs a lot of thought put into it.

 

[Rebelsfan]

to half and rugby nutter re private investment
It is fair to say that one franchise has been down this path twice and both times the results were miserable. In the first instance, Melb Rebels was privately owned, but the restrictions placed on the franchise re who and when they could hire players meant that they hired a whole lot of has beens and some marquee players from overseas. But the real problem was the financial mismanagement by the CEO and his cronies who poured money out the door so fast even Harold Mitchell's bank accounts became too slim and he chucked it back into the laps of the hapless VRU and its Board members (controlled by Tim North). There it sat for two or so years under the control of RA - make no mistake, they called the shots and they paid the bills. Then along came two knights - Alan Whinney and Andrew Cox. Both offered their plan. AW was prepared to absorb all losses from the end of 2014 and build the brand. AC was prepared to put in $1 (which he got back two years later) and take out huge (mis) management fees during his ownership and was paid a further $6m on top of what other franchises received - note the RA financials, the payment plan is still in operation.
SO what's the point? Private owner ship does work, but it needs to have transparent costings and player selection practices. There are some b/millionaires who would like to dip their toe into rugby franchise ownership, but not while the current administrators continue to f&*k it all up. Bye bye Clyne and co.

 

[hoggy]

Private investment is the key to the future of Australian rugby, but that will never happen under the current structure. No one investing will make money, but you need to create a landscape that allows for it to happen.

You can't expect people to give you money they no is a loss maker and on top of that give them a list of conditions.

We've seen in franchises like the rebels how quickly investors loose interest, that's why the club ownership structure works in other codes, it also helps cater for big ego's something that needs to be factored in.

 

[wamberal]

I doubt that anybody investing in rugby can expect to make money, even in countries where the code is comparatively more popular than it is here.


At the end of the day, if those of us who love the game are not prepared to pay, one way or another, the game will not survive as a fully professional and internationally competitive sport here.

It has always baffled me a bit when posters complain about paying for access to watch the game. The only sports that are totally free to watch are totally amateur. We pay, one way or another, for professionalism. End of story.

Some pay through their work as volunteers, of course. The so-called grass roots.

 

[half]

Rebelsfan n BH.

I admire your passion further I acknowledge your heart is in the right place

We are not in a position anymore to choose what format we like. We lost that right IMO about four to five years ago when we refused to accept our position. Further we over asumed how strong we where.

Revenue is tied to the media deal even in sponsorship. Without a broadcast agreement then expect sponsorship to fall and I think by up to 80%.

No state union nor RA or any structure we have in place has the capital and the intellect to stop the slide.

IMO our only option on the table today is to invite private capital and without a broadcast deal it's mega to the power of mega harder. However to have any chance of getting private investment we need a structure or say model that has a proven track record. For mine without going over history it's the MLS in the USA.

Twiggy is not the answer but he is a huge part of the solution.

 

[hoggy]

I'm curious to know, how exactly this new world league works, is Super rugby a component of this? or does this just cover the Test Team. If so and the financial pressure is released from the RA, could this not free them up to look at alternatives on the domestic front.

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm curious to know, how exactly this new world league works, is Super rugby a component of this? or does this just cover the Test Team. If so and the financial pressure is released from the RA, could this not free them up to look at alternatives on the domestic front.

It just relates to test rugby.

 

[Derpus]

Private investment is the key to the future of Australian rugby, but that will never happen under the current structure. No one investing will make money, but you need to create a landscape that allows for it to happen.

You can't expect people to give you money they no is a loss maker and on top of that give them a list of conditions.

This is what happens in England and France. Rich people lose money hand over fist to own a club and buy the best players. It's very difficult to turn a profit in sports. It's basically a rich mans hobby.

And there aren't many people in Aus who are willing to lose money to see Super Rugby thrive. It's why we are losing the battle to retain our own players. Can't offer the salaries a club in Europe can, because the clubs in Europe don't care if they are running at a loss so they can offer higher salaries.

(in short - fuck rich Europeans)

 

[half]

This is what happens in England and France. Rich people lose money hand over fist to own a club and buy the best players. It's very difficult to turn a profit in sports. It's basically a rich mans hobby.

And there aren't many people in Aus who are willing to lose money to see Super Rugby thrive. It's why we are losing the battle to retain our own players. Can't offer the salaries a club in Europe can, because the clubs in Europe don't care if they are running at a loss so they can offer higher salaries.

(in short - fuck rich Europeans)

Interesting comment, where do you obtain your information that there are no business people willing to invest in rugby.

Lang Walker a rugby tragic is the funder behind the new western Sydney A-League team and is on record as saying he would have much preferred to do this for a rugby side. Twiggy is another and those Melbourne Rebel owners.

But we have nothing to offer them.

I feel at times on this site and why I hardly ever read the Roar is so many posters have so little faith in rugby they effectively hope, wish and pray for things not to change.

By far the biggest risk in business is to do nothing especially when all the signs and all your commentators are doing things differently.

For the record this is the vid put out by the new western Sydney A-League team and remember it could have been a union team. The backer of this club is a union tragic as I said on record saying he would have preferred to do this for a rugby side.



https://www.macarthurfc.com.au

 

[Derpus]

Yeah Twiggy offered money with plenty of strings attached. And he is investing in rugby.

Not looking to go back over that sorry saga.

 

[Derpus]

Interesting comment, where do you obtain your information that there are no business people willing to invest in rugby.

And there aren't many people in Aus who are willing to lose money to see Super Rugby thrive. )

 

[hoggy]

I've never said we should compete with European wages, in fact I would suggest it is the exact reason we are in the current mess.
But there are a few rich Australians or small groups of investors that may possibly be persuaded to invest in rugby (that is unless we are somehow different from every other football code in the world)

If we look at what some have suggested on here domestic club teams with a budget of say $10million a year, what if we could attract owners/investors to fund say $3/4 million of that you shortfall is $6 million, then you are hoping TV rights, membership,attendance will make up the shortfall.

The alternative is the RA fronting up with everything.

 

[Derpus]

I've never said we should compete with European wages, in fact I would suggest it is the exact reason we are in the current mess.
But there are a few rich Australians or small groups of investors that may possibly be persuaded to invest in rugby (that is unless we are somehow different from every other football code in the world)

If we look at what some have suggested on here domestic club teams with a budget of say $10million a year, what if we could attract owners/investors to fund say $3/4 million of that you shortfall is $6 million, then you are hoping TV rights, membership,attendance will make up the shortfall.

The alternative is the RA fronting up with everything.

Your original point was that no one investing would make any money.

How does what you have described above make investors money?

 

[Braveheart81]

I've never said we should compete with European wages, in fact I would suggest it is the exact reason we are in the current mess.

You have to compete to some degree though. It's a global market for players.

It is not like most professional players are getting paid massively in Australia. When you get down to the lower end Super Rugby contracts they only really work for players who are young and think their career is on the up and they will earn more. It's one of the reasons you don't see a lot of guys in their late 20s on those contracts. They're better off keeping their day job and playing club rugby.

 

[hoggy]

Sorry but you have missed my point, or maybe i did not make myself clear. no one will ever make money investing in rugby re franchising or club ownership, we all agree on that, what the game has to do is provide an environment that investors are willing to invest and lose such money(just like club ownership of sporting clubs world wide).

But the whole structure of Super rugby does not allow or maybe a better word encourage that sort of investment.

 

[Derpus]

^^
Why?

 

[half]

Yeah Twiggy offered money with plenty of strings attached. And he is investing in rugby.

Not looking to go back over that sorry saga.

BINGO === HIT NAIL ON HEAD === LIGHT BULB MOMENT=== FINALLY UNDERSTANDING;

Because the system he was being asked to sign too was outside his control.

Meaning provide a system where he has control of the product.

Please go back and find no better still I will link an article for you. This is the MLS model unpacked and explained this IMO is our last hope to remain using the Fox' term a marquee sport. We don't have the capital, intellect, connections at local district, tier 3 or 4 level competitions like Shute Shield, State Unions or RA to solve our issues.

We are staring into the abyss, if the media deal goes, so does most of our sponsorship's, RA & Super Rugby teams have players and stadium agreements signed well into the future, they are going bankrupt as they will be incapable of meeting their commitments.

As I said this link explains the MLS system I keep banging on about works, have a read and I can give you heaps more on it if you like. Set this up and Twiggy signs and invites his mates. BTW its quite long.

https://medium.com/@isaac_krasny/unpacking-the-major-league-soccer-business-model-827f4b784bcd

 

[Derpus]

Ooooh yeah that's why i stopped posting in this thread.

 

[I like to watch]

Private investment is the key to the future of Australian rugby, but that will never happen under the current structure. No one investing will make money, but you need to create a landscape that allows for it to happen.

You can't expect people to give you money they no is a loss maker and on top of that give them a list of conditions.

We've seen in franchises like the rebels how quickly investors loose interest, that's why the club ownership structure works in other codes, it also helps cater for big ego's something that needs to be factored in.

I spose you could say under the current structure it would be “pissing money up against a wall”