Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rugbynutter39]

I also agree and, have said this for a long time: Australia should exit Super Rugby and leave it to NZ and SA.

It's going happen anyway. Supe, in its full-season transcontinental guise, is a failed model. It is incrementally and inexorably destroying rugby's viability. The game is on a bust.

TBH, I think even South Africa know this. New Zealand does not.

We need to get out - and salvage what's left.

Yep agreed and at this stage given the choices may need to go backwards first to go forwards as super rugby is not our future. We have to invest in other options - rapid rugby (more so get other money to fund oz teams in it), a major league super club comp with semi pro players plus allow open wallaby eligibility for players who play off shore.

 

[hoggy]

But part of that comes down to control, the unions have always wanted to control the market due to the priority of Test rugby, but the downside to that is they end up with all the costs. Private investment has never been encouraged due to the perceived loss of power that comes with it.

The only way moving forward is for private investment to take up some of those costs, but for that to happen. Rugby especially in Australia has to be more appealing to investors(or there ego's), that can only happen with a loosening of the control.
That is the crux for the game here moving forward.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

RA are blind to the idea of actually trying to exit SANZAAR at Club level, despite what is staring them in the face.

NZ is blind to the idea of actually trying to exit SANZAAR at Club level, despite what is staring them in the face.

Taking this as read, and not changing, how about an alternative which sees Australian teams join with the Mitre 10 Cup - end of NRC, use existing Super Rugby brands, start with two in each division. YES, I know there is a hell of a lot of history in the NPC, but the crowds are appalling and this could re-ignite the competition. A good middle ground perhaps? (With Aus teams of course ineligible for Ranfurly Shield, so Horan-Little Shield remains for Australian derbies.)

Brains trust wise nzru and RA are like a deer in headlights with no idea what to do to salvage the mess, hence they hope others like world rugby might give them temporary respite with world league concept. They don’t have the intellectual nous to draw on to be in control off their own destiny and burecracy and lack of deep pockets holds them back being bold like twiggy with his rapid rugby concept.

 

[Omar Comin']

If RA continue a redaction to two franchises, inevitably NSW and Qld, then the chance for any form of National comp has flown the coop.

I don't think that's necessarily true. It obviously wouldn't be a national comp full of top tier professional players - they'd all either play in the 2 or 3 Super Rugby franchises or overseas. But it could be a significant step up from the Shute Shield/QPR. And if Super Rugby were to become just an 8-10 team competition played over a similar number of weeks it would feel more like an extension of test rugby. The focus of the national competition would be totally different - it would provide a pathway to the elite level for sure, but it could have a much deeper connection to the grassroots and build on local rivalries.

 

[Rebels3]

I don't think that's necessarily true. It obviously wouldn't be a national comp full of top tier professional players - they'd all either play in the 2 or 3 Super Rugby franchises or overseas. But it could be a significant step up from the Shute Shield/QPR. And if Super Rugby were to become just an 8-10 team competition played over a similar number of weeks it would feel more like an extension of test rugby. The focus of the national competition would be totally different - it would provide a pathway to the elite level for sure, but it could have a much deeper connection to the grassroots and build on local rivalries.

Not sure if you’re insinuating that existing clubs become the semi-pro tier, but if you’re it’d just create another issue with the haves and have not. If for example Gordon, Eastwood, Southern Districts and Manly were propelled into a semi-professional national competition and joined by Prem Rugby teams in QLD, a few in ACT, Vic and WA, you’d end up with the teams that didn’t make the cut whining that they are been ignored, the Shute Shield had been destroyed with the removal of the propelled teams or if they remain in some capacity dominating because they are heavily resourced.

There needs to be 4-5 max 6 professional teams (we cannot sustain anymore and offer financial aide thats impactful from a high performance or talent attraction), playing a standard professional amount of games (around 20 a season), in a fully professional environment and financially able to offer an attractive package to inspire talent into the pathway. Everything else below must be amateur, they need to know they are amateur, where the belong in the pecking order and their no.1 responsibility is to provide the best possible education to players to feed into the 4-5-6 pro teams. If people don’t like the amateur status, then tough luck

 

[wamberal]

Relegation and promotion might be a tool that could be used to include the best performing district clubs.


One thing that is certain, the district clubs are repositories of tradition, and no serious domestic competition is going to be successful without a large element of tradition, and traditional rivalries.


That is what both the AFL and NRL were built on. Traditional rivalries.

 

[Dan54]

I also agree and, have said this for a long time: Australia should exit Super Rugby and leave it to NZ and SA.

It's going happen anyway. Supe, in its full-season transcontinental guise, is a failed model. It is incrementally and inexorably destroying rugby's viability. The game is on a bust.

TBH, I think even South Africa know this. New Zealand does not.

We need to get out - and salvage what's left.

I wonder if that not a bad idea, as I said, have a comp in Aus, ok bring the NRC forward, to be honest I don't think it will survive as a professional game, as noone seems even remotely interested in it, and just let any decent players go overseas or play league. Then everyone will be happy, as long as I can get proper rugby from NZ or SA etc on the net, I think I will live with that! Then all will be happy
To be honest I like Omars idea of Aus dropping to 2-3 super teams, but I would rub NRC at same time, you could move players up as injuries etc take toll, don't know what the hell would happen at club level etc, but noone else seems have thought it through and someone will no doubt have some great ideas!!

 

[liquor box]

Not sure if you’re insinuating that existing clubs become the semi-pro tier, but if you’re it’d just create another issue with the haves and have not. If for example Gordon, Eastwood, Southern Districts and Manly were propelled into a semi-professional national competition and joined by Prem Rugby teams in QLD, a few in ACT, Vic and WA, you’d end up with the teams that didn’t make the cut whining that they are been ignored, the Shute Shield had been destroyed with the removal of the propelled teams or if they remain in some capacity dominating because they are heavily resourced.

There needs to be 4-5 max 6 professional teams (we cannot sustain anymore and offer financial aide thats impactful from a high performance or talent attraction), playing a standard professional amount of games (around 20 a season), in a fully professional environment and financially able to offer an attractive package to inspire talent into the pathway. Everything else below must be amateur, they need to know they are amateur, where the belong in the pecking order and their no.1 responsibility is to provide the best possible education to players to feed into the 4-5-6 pro teams. If people don’t like the amateur status, then tough luck

I think we should have 8 NRC teams.

NRC should be 2 x QLD teams, 2 x NSW teams, 2 x ACT teams and 2 x Melbourne teams.

Both teams in each state to be owned by the Super Rugby franchise.

Have a 7 week regular season when both teams from one state travel together to another state for a double header. (reduced costs)

Later in the season there is a return double header where the teams swap opponents. One week of the season is a local derby in each state.

Eg- Rd 1- QLD 1 v NSW 1, QLD 2 v NSW 2 at Brisbane. Rd 5 NSW 1 v QLD 2, NSW 2 v QLD 1 at Sydney.

For NRC to have meaning it needs to be seen as a genuine pathway, Super Rugby teams should only be able to select players from their NRC team.

I love NRC, but would be even more interested if I knew that all players on the field were playing to get a contract in Super Rugby.

With the issues at Foxtel I think consideration should be given for NRC to be streamed by Rugby Australia. If you buy a ticket to Super Rugby or Test Matches, are a member of a team, play rugby, have kids who play rugby or buy merchandise then you get free access to the streaming.

 

[Rebels3]

Relegation and promotion might be a tool that could be used to include the best performing district clubs.


One thing that is certain, the district clubs are repositories of tradition, and no serious domestic competition is going to be successful without a large element of tradition, and traditional rivalries.


That is what both the AFL and NRL were built on. Traditional rivalries.

That is only partly true. The Broncos are only 30yrs old, Sydney Swans (Formerly Sth Melb) similar, Adelaide Crows are a made up entity, Fremantle, West Coast Eagles, Brisbane Lions (formerly Fitzroy) Melbourne Storm, Canberra Raiders, Nth Qld Cowboys, etc. then a whole bunch of merged entities in St George Illawarra, West Tigers, etc. The greatest tradition in Australian rugby and the only brands known around the country apart from the Wallabies is the Reds and Waratahs and to a lesser extent the Brumbies.

We also fail to understand club rugby does not have the support to be professional, contrary to media beat up generally most games would be lucky to have a few hundred people (minus the finals). I have a pretty good idea of this especially from a Qld perspective, I played for one of the Prem Rugby teams. There was weeks where it’d be lucky to have 100 people in attendance and most of them were the previous grades playing and not watching but in the bar, even watching the Prem replays on Fox, last weeks game at Souths was basically empty. It might be better in Sydney, in fact I’m sure it is, but there would be more people at 1 Tahs game than a whole season of club rugby.

Our rivalries are Reds vs Tahs, Brums vs Tahs and if the Force came back Force v Tahs and Force v Rebels. Having Manly vs GPS would derive zero interest. We need to move on from the imaginary club football premise in a pro structure, the only reason it exists is because people are desperate to tarnish the current pro entities names and old boys are desperate to retain power the are losing on a yearly basis. People have heard it so much they actually believe it, despite no evidence. Then there is the issue that anyone outside the SS sphere in NSW despises the competition, so once again not engaging everyone

 

[Omar Comin']

To be honest I like Omars idea of Aus dropping to 2-3 super teams, but I would rub NRC at same time, you could move players up as injuries etc take toll, don't know what the hell would happen at club level etc, but noone else seems have thought it through and someone will no doubt have some great ideas!!

I think Australia would likely only drop to 2-3 Super Rugby teams if the NZRU and SARU did the same. All the unions are under financial pressure and finding it increasingly difficult to hold onto players. And interest in Super Rugby is seemingly declining in all markets and indications are that the next broadcast deal will not be too strong. If SANZAAR is wedded to Super Rugby then a serious consolidation is maybe the only way it survives in the long term. How else do they hold onto top players?

Beneath that the NPC, Currie Cup and an Australian version could become full season competitions that run for 20 odd rounds at a semi-professional or just professional level.

 

[Omar Comin']

Not sure if you’re insinuating that existing clubs become the semi-pro tier, but if you’re it’d just create another issue with the haves and have not. If for example Gordon, Eastwood, Southern Districts and Manly were propelled into a semi-professional national competition and joined by Prem Rugby teams in QLD, a few in ACT, Vic and WA, you’d end up with the teams that didn’t make the cut whining that they are been ignored, the Shute Shield had been destroyed with the removal of the propelled teams or if they remain in some capacity dominating because they are heavily resourced.

I'm fairly agnostic about the best way to go about it. The MLS / Major League Rugby model could work. If existing clubs have the backing to step up into a national competition (and meet certain standards) then they could be involved, if private investors want to start new teams then that works too. I'd assume it would be a mix of both.

I think if we had a 10-14 team national club competition with average crowds of 3-5k, strong links to local clubs and schools etc, and some national tv coverage then that would be positive for the sport and something to hopefully build from. The scope of it would really depend on how much money investors would be willing to spend setting it up. But it could be anything from practically amateur to fully professional.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Relegation and promotion might be a tool that could be used to include the best performing district clubs.


One thing that is certain, the district clubs are repositories of tradition, and no serious domestic competition is going to be successful without a large element of tradition, and traditional rivalries.




That is what both the AFL and NRL were built on. Traditional rivalries.

I think a major league model of best of the clubs as semi pro which has relegation and promotion (with parachute pAyments for relegation like epl) could work as one option.

A domestic comp with existing oz super rugby sides + force + Fiji + say Sunwolves mk2 could work with relegation / promotion maybe for teams in oz or maybe even Asia - need to think through that one. What I do really like though is promotion / relegation concept to make the comp more interesting.

 

[Bandar]

I just can not see how a competition where fully professional clubs play only 13 regular season matches with 2-3 just outside our 'prime-time' viewing window and another 2-3 in the dead of the night is possibly feasible.

It can't be good for the national team players who will end up doing more training and less playing and even worse for the non internationals who play even less. There is no way the clubs/franchises can even come close to being profitable.

In Europe the clubs play 22 rounds, European cups and even Anglo-Welsh cups (30+ matches/year) They have to manage their squads and give players experience at a higher level. Here our squad members play amateur club rugby with a team they don't train with if they aren't in the match day 23 (remember the complaining about Mack Mason not getting a go)

We have 5 reasonably known provincial brands, add into the mix the Sunwolves, Fijian Dura, Hunter/Western Sydney and maybe Hong Kong playing home and away, it would be a great comp.

If the Kiwis want to join in they can but players have to be eligible for the AB from any team in the comp. If not they can fly over us and keep playing SA and Argentina.

The comp would be of a pretty good standard and most importantly even with quality players distributed across all the teams.

 

[PhilClinton]

This seems like the best place to post this - formal discussions were held today at Foxtel and they decided that Rugby Union will no longer be regarded as a 'marquee sport' in it's current format and thus a non-essential addition to their sports lineup when broadcasting re negotiations happen. This is significant as the fox sports brand itself will be undergoing a restructure with more streaming services (Kayo) being utilized in the coming years. The meeting wasn't held to specifically discuss the status of rugby union, however, it was a major talking point due to declining viewership and crowd numbers for super rugby. Barring some major changes in the next 18 months, they will move the product to become a dedicated streaming sport if they bother to make another deal with SANZAR at all, rather than have time slots available on their current fox sports 1, 2, 3 etc channels.

I believe this will be publicly discussed/announced in some form or another shortly, but my source was present when the meeting took place.

 

[wamberal]

Fark.

 

[Tex]

Crikey that's some hot sauce.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Not sure if you’re insinuating that existing clubs become the semi-pro tier, but if you’re it’d just create another issue with the haves and have not. If for example Gordon, Eastwood, Southern Districts and Manly were propelled into a semi-professional national competition and joined by Prem Rugby teams in QLD, a few in ACT, Vic and WA, you’d end up with the teams that didn’t make the cut whining that they are been ignored, the Shute Shield had been destroyed with the removal of the propelled teams or if they remain in some capacity dominating because they are heavily resourced.

There needs to be 4-5 max 6 professional teams (we cannot sustain anymore and offer financial aide thats impactful from a high performance or talent attraction), playing a standard professional amount of games (around 20 a season), in a fully professional environment and financially able to offer an attractive package to inspire talent into the pathway. Everything else below must be amateur, they need to know they are amateur, where the belong in the pecking order and their no.1 responsibility is to provide the best possible education to players to feed into the 4-5-6 pro teams. If people don’t like the amateur status, then tough luck

Depends on how you do it. Major League Rugby in the States requires a yearly bond payment plus the provision of funds capable of maintaining operations for at least 5 seasons. I highly suspect we'll see the clubs unable to meet such criteria as standalones without angel investors. And if they were capable of finding the investment they can still maintain teams in their respective local competitions. In fact, they'd operate as perfect development/reserve grade pathways for them.

 

[dru]

[Shakes head sadly]

 

[Rebels3]

This seems like the best place to post this - formal discussions were held today at Foxtel and they decided that Rugby Union will no longer be regarded as a 'marquee sport' in it's current format and thus a non-essential addition to their sports lineup when broadcasting re negotiations happen. This is significant as the fox sports brand itself will be undergoing a restructure with more streaming services (Kayo) being utilized in the coming years. The meeting wasn't held to specifically discuss the status of rugby union, however, it was a major talking point due to declining viewership and crowd numbers for super rugby. Barring some major changes in the next 18 months, they will move the product to become a dedicated streaming sport if they bother to make another deal with SANZAR at all, rather than have time slots available on their current fox sports 1, 2, 3 etc channels.

I believe this will be publicly discussed/announced in some form or another shortly, but my source was present when the meeting took place.

If true and I have no reason not to believe you, I’m going to look at it as a potential catalyst for positive change.

 

[Rebels3]

Depends on how you do it. Major League Rugby in the States requires a yearly bond payment plus the provision of funds capable of maintaining operations for at least 5 seasons. I highly suspect we'll see the clubs unable to meet such criteria as standalones without angel investors. And if they were capable of finding the investment they can still maintain teams in their respective local competitions. In fact, they'd operate as perfect development/reserve grade pathways for them.

MLR comes with little risk for cashed up businessmen. It’s also based on the American model of 1 club towns, unless you’re NYC in a few sports.