Where to for Super Rugby?

[wamberal]

What we really need to see is a profit and loss statement for the whole professional game in Australia.



But yes, semi-professionalism is an obvious next station. It would either be an admission of defeat, or an acceptance of reality, depending on where you sit.


Perhaps both.

 

[Quick Hands]

What we really need to see is a profit and loss statement for the whole professional game in Australia.



But yes, semi-professionalism is an obvious next station. It would either be an admission of defeat, or an acceptance of reality, depending on where you sit.


Perhaps both.

There's nothing wrong with admitting defeat, accepting reality and trying to work out a better way. In fact, it's preferable to the alternative which is to mindlessly plough ahead, Douglas Haig style, in the hope of success.

 

[half]

Wam

You just raised a very interesting point, and maybe there is an answer, and at the risk of annoying BH and look in detail at another code.

Tony Tonnous is a soccer tragic and part time journalist. I love reading his work as its always informative and IMO often equally applies to rugby.

Anywho he wrote in some detail about the second division forming across Australia as well as how they are using facebook and other streaming platforms.

Cyclopath, you in a sense represent an establishment view, don’t mind change as long as it makes sense and we retain a professional competition capable of retaining players and sponsors. He describes how the wage bill is funded by much smaller state level clubs i.e. Shute Shield level. Love your views on the following concept.

But to the point, he says in the second division clubs, players train 3 to 4 nights they can earn money working during the day, studying, or building a business, a player can more than lower level A-League players.

Rugby has very good connections with universities, if we developed a new competition and say played out of cheaper stadiums and allowed players to be essentially semi-professional earn similar overall money and develop a career for after rugby.

Using my earlier post allowing corporate owners, could a concept of allowing players to develop personal careers alongside being a professional player. Yes issues with national team selection.

Is this a possible first step??????? Or are there aspects of this we can use, I think for say Force players it makes a lot of sense and many NRC players would be in this position today. BTW I am not suggesting similar wages but a similar model.

Taken from the article.

Footballers who five or so years ago only aspired to a career in the A-League are now realising that it often isn’t all it’s cut out to be, and that they can earn a reasonable living in the NPL, and do it at a semi-professional level where they can combine it with other projects such as their own business or studies, or other paid employment.

A player good enough to perhaps fill a squad position and maybe earn $70,000 or $80,000 in the A-League is happy enough earning anywhere between $1,500 and $3,500 a week in the NPL, where they train three nights a week.

Combine it with running a business, or part time work, and they’re suddenly earning double what they would as ‘a professional’, and setting themselves up for life after football.

If interested the article http://footballtoday.news/features/enter-the-npl

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

There's nothing wrong with admitting defeat, accepting reality and trying to work out a better way. In fact, it's preferable to the alternative which is to mindlessly plough ahead, Douglas Haig style, in the hope of success.

It doesn't necessarily need to be defeat. Just a realisation of the need for a more sustainable model. I'd rather we look to go to an expanded NRC with each team operating under a cap of $2m a season than what we have at present. This would allow us to invest in the grassroots of the game more extensively while offering more opportunity and content domestically. Could potentially even look to do something similar with the women's side of the game.

And while I was initially a little sceptical about it I think the NZRU has done with the Quins may be ahead of the curve. We could look to partner with one or even two AP teams to direct our top line talent toward. Under the proviso of them being available for the designated Test windows. Could even do something similar with the Top League. Point is, there's plenty of avenues.

 

[cyclopath]

Wam

You just raised a very interesting point, and maybe there is an answer, and at the risk of annoying BH and look in detail at another code.

Tony Tonnous is a soccer tragic and part time journalist. I love reading his work as its always informative and IMO often equally applies to rugby.

Anywho he wrote in some detail about the second division forming across Australia as well as how they are using facebook and other streaming platforms.

Cyclopath, you in a sense represent an establishment view, don’t mind change as long as it makes sense and we retain a professional competition capable of retaining players and sponsors. He describes how the wage bill is funded by much smaller state level clubs i.e. Shute Shield level. Love your views on the following concept.

But to the point, he says in the second division clubs, players train 3 to 4 nights they can earn money working during the day, studying, or building a business, a player can more than lower level A-League players.

Rugby has very good connections with universities, if we developed a new competition and say played out of cheaper stadiums and allowed players to be essentially semi-professional earn similar overall money and develop a career for after rugby.

Using my earlier post allowing corporate owners, could a concept of allowing players to develop personal careers alongside being a professional player. Yes issues with national team selection.

Is this a possible first step??????? Or are there aspects of this we can use, I think for say Force players it makes a lot of sense and many NRC players would be in this position today. BTW I am not suggesting similar wages but a similar model.

Taken from the article.




If interested the article http://footballtoday.news/features/enter-the-npl

It's an interesting idea for sure, but it's still a fair wages bill to come up with. Even at $1500 each x 23 = $34 500 / week. Shute Shield clubs would need some decent backing from someone to do that. Less developed comps around the country would really struggle. I think.
I guess an issue is that players who think they're good enough to be pros in rugby (even at that good Shute Shield but borderline Super Rugby level) could make that money and more overseas just playing rugby. Of course, setting yourself up for life after rugby is a plus. I'm not sure a lot of early 20-somethings who fancy themselves as good enough rugby players think that far ahead!

 

[wamberal]

Just tossing some ideas around. But good to have a debate that has not descended into acrimony. So far.

 

[half]

It's an interesting idea for sure, but it's still a fair wages bill to come up with. Even at $1500 each x 23 = $34 500 / week. Shute Shield clubs would need some decent backing from someone to do that. Less developed comps around the country would really struggle. I think.
I guess an issue is that players who think they're good enough to be pros in rugby (even at that good Shute Shield but borderline Super Rugby level) could make that money and more overseas just playing rugby. Of course, setting yourself up for life after rugby is a plus. I'm not sure a lot of early 20-somethings who fancy themselves as good enough rugby players think that far ahead!

Sorry I did not explain myself well enough.

The often talked of Plan B.

If Super Rugby falls over, then take the existing 8 NRC teams and add Newcastle. 9 team two round competition so 16 games. Plus finals.

Add a kinda SOO serious at the end, Reds, Tahs, ACT, Other [southern States] in a say 3 round play off for the best.

Then national selection.

Players get paid at each level per game or per week.

Early days and full of holes. But the concept of creating a competition capable of holding as many players as we can if Super Rugby falls over.

The NRC players and SOO selection is essentially by semi-professional players who also build a career for life after rugby.

 

[dru]

Sorry I did not explain myself well enough.

The often talked of Plan B.

If Super Rugby falls over, then take the existing 8 NRC teams and add Newcastle. 9 team two round competition so 16 games. Plus finals.

Add a kinda SOO serious at the end, Reds, Tahs, ACT, Other [southern States] in a say 3 round play off for the best.

Then national selection.

Players get paid at each level per game or per week.

Early days and full of holes. But the concept of creating a competition capable of holding as many players as we can if Super Rugby falls over.

The NRC players and SOO selection is essentially by semi-professional players who also build a career for life after rugby.

OK. Serious Q. How do we get you voted CEO of RA?

 

[Quick Hands]

Sorry I did not explain myself well enough.

The often talked of Plan B.

If Super Rugby falls over, then take the existing 8 NRC teams and add Newcastle. 9 team two round competition so 16 games. Plus finals.

Add a kinda SOO serious at the end, Reds, Tahs, ACT, Other [southern States] in a say 3 round play off for the best.

Then national selection.

Players get paid at each level per game or per week.

Early days and full of holes. But the concept of creating a competition capable of holding as many players as we can if Super Rugby falls over.

The NRC players and SOO selection is essentially by semi-professional players who also build a career for life after rugby.

Broadly speaking, I agree. Not sure about Newcastle, but could be convinced on the basis of evidence.

I've suggested before a SOO type thing at the end, but we really only have enough depth for that to be a 3 way competition, NSW, Qld and Combined States.

I think you'd need to have some sort of contract system to retain and/or attract players as playing week to week for a wage isn't really how pro or semi-pro sport works.

But, details are for a later time. Very few people left defending the trans-continental super rugby competition on the basis of public support or growing the game. The last argument left for being in it is to maintain a professional player base. This argument will soon collapse as the economics become unviable.

The Waratahs for example receive upwards of $7 million from RA to run their operation and even after that and all their own sponsors and other income, they still run at a loss.

 

[half]

Quick & Dru

Just a final couple of comments. I mentioned earlier I wanted corporate team owners and a MLS style model. BTW the MLS model is broadly based on the American Football Model [gridiron].

The model works by, a company is formed lets call it X co.

X co has shareholders who are the 9 say professional teams.

Revenue is shared between the clubs and transport is paid by X co.

X co are totally responsible for running their competition. The old saying the farmer that owns the farm runs it better than an employee is apt in

RA are responsible for the SOO series and national teams.

As I said full of holes, but we have an Australian working model today for the semi professional and the American sporting model is quite successful.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Sorry I did not explain myself well enough.

The often talked of Plan B.

If Super Rugby falls over, then take the existing 8 NRC teams and add Newcastle. 9 team two round competition so 16 games. Plus finals.

Add a kinda SOO serious at the end, Reds, Tahs, ACT, Other [southern States] in a say 3 round play off for the best.

Then national selection.

Players get paid at each level per game or per week.

Early days and full of holes. But the concept of creating a competition capable of holding as many players as we can if Super Rugby falls over.

The NRC players and SOO selection is essentially by semi-professional players who also build a career for life after rugby.

I'd go with the the mooted 8 including the Drua to start. Run over two full home and away rounds for 14 games each plus finals. or do what both the A-League and NBL do and play over three full home and away rounds for 21 rounds. Either option I gues.

I do like the idea of a SOO like series after ward as a means of national selection vessel. But if we were going to elevate the NRC I'd suggest that the likes of the Rebels, Brumbies and Force would be the upgraded entities alongside Brisbane City, Sydney and both Country's. So I'd go with the two "original" states team in NSW and Qld plus a third combined states team.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Quick & Dru

Just a final couple of comments. I mentioned earlier I wanted corporate team owners and a MLS style model. BTW the MLS model is broadly based on the American Football Model [gridiron].

The model works by, a company is formed lets call it X co.

X co has shareholders who are the 9 say professional teams.

Revenue is shared between the clubs and transport is paid by X co.

X co are totally responsible for running their competition. The old saying the farmer that owns the farm runs it better than an employee is apt in

RA are responsible for the SOO series and national teams.

As I said full of holes, but we have an Australian working model today for the semi professional and the American sporting model is quite successful.

That would be an interesting model to see established.

 

[sunnyboys]

A couple of pages I suggested the “NRC” in March - June. I reckon only 2 each from QLD and NSW.

I love the ‘counrty’ concept - but how does a team build a fanbase being the travelling wilburies... anyway minor details. 7 oz teams plus Drua. Is 4 games enough content? Would keep standard up a bit.

As for Reds and Tahs. I’d love to see them play each other - with the the word Origin ever being uttered!! And sure a combined state’s team.

Plus I’d love to see Nz or Sa provincial teams invited for mini tours to playa against them.

I think the Aug to Oct period is ripe for new ideas - only playing Bled every second year and having little tours by SA or Arg, in addition to the other provincial match ups. Maybe make Bled a one off game every year. Games during this part of the year shouldnt become monotonous like the RC has. These need to be capital letter E, Event games. Games you don’t want to miss because they might not occur again for a few years.

 

[sunnyboys]

I reckon in Qld you could do worse than to set up a Brisbane team and a Logan team (trying to avoid using Prem team name of Sunnybank). The only problem there is where would they play.

 

[Killer]

RA can make a deal/plan a new competition, whether National or International, with Twiggy now, where they still have a semblance of power.
Or they can lose control of there own destiny bit by bit until Twiggy can just step in. They will then have no control over the future of Rugby in Aust.
RA's refusal to deal with Twiggy, and the only sure way of making rugby in Aust strong again, is all about power and nothing to do with what is best for Rugby.
You can thank clyne for this impasse, imo a person solely consumed with self interest.
To survive get rid of clyne and the board.

 

[Braveheart81]

They paid a 1.1m licence fee to NSWRU and slightly more the year before.

The Waratahs entity isn't designed to make big profits. Anything extra gets paid up to NSWRU.

I agree that the Waratahs financial position isn't great with falling crowds but to suggest the loss they make means they have lost money for NSW rugby is incorrect.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

A couple of pages I suggested the “NRC” in March - June. I reckon only 2 each from QLD and NSW.

I love the ‘counrty’ concept - but how does a team build a fanbase being the travelling wilburies. anyway minor details. 7 oz teams plus Drua. Is 4 games enough content? Would keep standard up a bit.

As for Reds and Tahs. I’d love to see them play each other - with the the word Origin ever being uttered!! And sure a combined state’s team.

Plus I’d love to see Nz or Sa provincial teams invited for mini tours to playa against them.

I think the Aug to Oct period is ripe for new ideas - only playing Bled every second year and having little tours by SA or Arg, in addition to the other provincial match ups. Maybe make Bled a one off game every year. Games during this part of the year shouldnt become monotonous like the RC has. These need to be capital letter E, Event games. Games you don’t want to miss because they might not occur again for a few years.

That's how I see it. Two teams for both NSW and QLD. I'd like to keep the Country's but I do get your point. A solution to that would in effect for them to select a base to play out of. Somewhere like Wollongong or such in NSW and say the Sunshine Coast in Qld.

 

[I like to watch]

They paid a 1.1m licence fee to NSWRU and slightly more the year before.

The Waratahs entity isn't designed to make big profits. Anything extra gets paid up to NSWRU.

I agree that the Waratahs financial position isn't great with falling crowds but to suggest the loss they make means they have lost money for NSW rugby is incorrect.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

The actual result wasn't bad when you take into account non cash items.
The big issue is that I don't believe crowd sizes have reached the floor,and it's clear that the next tv deal is going to be disastrous for RA and all those reliant on it.
And I doubt anyone in the Tahs are projecting increases in sponsorship.
The current model is unsustainable,I wouldn't want to be a director there.....

 

[hoggy]

I think ultimately a continuation of Super rugby simply means the game here cannot move forward. Going it alone means accepting the realities of far lesser money and many of the top players moving overseas, but what is the alternative a slow decline to irrelevance.

Right now every penny and effort is targeted at a system that has for a long time now stopped working. A domestic based competition will require a massive dose of reality, but just as important will be the change in mindset that can move the game forward.

Just maybe lets start looking at the next suburb instead of trying to conquer the world.

 

[wamberal]

Any competition resembling the NRC must involve a total rebranding. Somehow, I don't know how, we simply have to have participating entities which sound authentic, and which have some sort of history.


I do like the idea of a Logan team. It would be nice to think that Newcastle (or the Hunter Valley) would get behind a team, but history tells us that those buggers prefer to fight each other.


Without being unnecessarily provocative, it does seem pretty obvious that the success or failure of such a venture will depend to a large extent on Sydney. I still like the name "Sydney Fleet". It has historic overtones, and that matters a lot.


"Sydney Academicals"? A team which looks for support of all kinds from all the tertiary institutions?


And of course a team which is unashamedly based in Sydney's vast west. Maybe this could double as NSW country's team.




In a ten team competition I would see three from Sydney/NSW country. Two from Brisbane. One from ACT. One each of course from Melbourne and Perth.


That leaves two franchises, which could be "development" franchises, used to house young players. "Northern Colts" and "Southern Stars". They would move around.


Just a bit of a ramble. But frankly any new venture will require some very creative thinking, and while I am not in any way suggesting that my ideas are viable, I do believe that it is essential to get this right, finally. So people should be willing to put their heads above the parapet and get shot at.

Fire away!!!