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I agree, if only the ARU and SANZAAR had done exactly that and conducted their due diligence before signing the agreement to the new broadcast rights, lasted only 12months before they made the decision to change it
Where to for Super Rugby?
- Thread starter Quick Hands
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I agree, if only the ARU and SANZAAR had done exactly that and conducted their due diligence before signing the agreement to the new broadcast rights, lasted only 12months before they made the decision to change it
mst
Peter Johnson (47)
I am sorry, are you new here?
This is rugby - we don't do that!Even when we do try we can we only compare everyone oranges to our apples. What compares to Super Rugby?
Take the RA spreadsheets or SANZAAR reports; what data were they using to make comparisons to or derive some evidence from? The domestic competition comparison? Data from intentional tests or RC games?
Even reading some of the SANZAAR data used it was hard not to miss the glaring fact that the successful competitions were nearly all domestic. Even the Champions cup is hinged off successful domestic competitions.
SANZAAR and RA are obsessively using the same ingredients and wondering why it wont produce anything new or different.
Super Rugby is the equivalent of Vegemite. Acquired taste and you either like or not. Its an occasional thing that more ingrained by culture than populism. It will never appeal to the mainstream.
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
Didn't they do exactly this before the last expansion and then just ignore the results?
Proud Pig
Tom Lawton (22)
OK I am going to state the bleeding obvious and make some unpopular calls but this is simply my opinion on the state of the game.
The current Super rugby model does not and cannot work in Australia as it does in NZ as it is a third tier sport here. We cannot command the same market share as NZ or the associated Free to Air television money. We have a choice we either accept that position or die a slow painful death.
The players will want to go where the money is and who can blame them. There is simply not enough money in the game in Australia to support the system as it stands. The game can't make sufficient money in Australia to pay the players the equivalent salary to Europe and should not even try. Accept that players will leave and allow it by letting anyone play for the Wallabies regardless of where they play their club rugby. This will create a mass exodus of the best players in Australia as the European and Japanese markets will see an opportunity to improve their own positions. This will slash the wage bill of all clubs making them far more sustainable.
Sure, the Australian Super rugby teams will not be able to compete with the NZ teams without their star wallabies but they can't now so what changes.
We need out of Super Rugby so that we don't need to travel to SA or Japan or Argentina. It may be just about sustainable to have a trans-tasman comp but even that is a financial drain.
The clubs need to be self sustaining without expecting to drastically increase their revenue base so that means cost cutting.
The only way to significantly cut costs is to accept that the game needs to shrink in Australia because I cannot see that the potential to grow the game here is a strong possibility.
There will always be sufficient support in Australia for a third tier sport so long as it is costed as a third tier sport and not as we have at the moment a third tier sport spending like a first tier sport.
I hope I am wrong and that there is some great plan to grow the game. The plan cannot be some benefactor simply throwing money at the game. I also do not believe that the Twiggy dream can be self sustaining either and that is what is needed. Super Rugby with Australia, New Zealand and South Africa is not self sustaining so how could Twiggy's plaything ever hope to be.
The current Super rugby model does not and cannot work in Australia as it does in NZ as it is a third tier sport here. We cannot command the same market share as NZ or the associated Free to Air television money. We have a choice we either accept that position or die a slow painful death.
The players will want to go where the money is and who can blame them. There is simply not enough money in the game in Australia to support the system as it stands. The game can't make sufficient money in Australia to pay the players the equivalent salary to Europe and should not even try. Accept that players will leave and allow it by letting anyone play for the Wallabies regardless of where they play their club rugby. This will create a mass exodus of the best players in Australia as the European and Japanese markets will see an opportunity to improve their own positions. This will slash the wage bill of all clubs making them far more sustainable.
Sure, the Australian Super rugby teams will not be able to compete with the NZ teams without their star wallabies but they can't now so what changes.
We need out of Super Rugby so that we don't need to travel to SA or Japan or Argentina. It may be just about sustainable to have a trans-tasman comp but even that is a financial drain.
The clubs need to be self sustaining without expecting to drastically increase their revenue base so that means cost cutting.
The only way to significantly cut costs is to accept that the game needs to shrink in Australia because I cannot see that the potential to grow the game here is a strong possibility.
There will always be sufficient support in Australia for a third tier sport so long as it is costed as a third tier sport and not as we have at the moment a third tier sport spending like a first tier sport.
I hope I am wrong and that there is some great plan to grow the game. The plan cannot be some benefactor simply throwing money at the game. I also do not believe that the Twiggy dream can be self sustaining either and that is what is needed. Super Rugby with Australia, New Zealand and South Africa is not self sustaining so how could Twiggy's plaything ever hope to be.
Bandar
Bob Loudon (25)
I agree mostly but not the idea of shrinking the game - opt out of super rugby and go with the NRC with a low salary cap. We need to be able to offer kids a place at a professional club - currently we have 4 of them.
Aussies want to see a team win, in our current set up we are all losing. It doesn't matter if the overall standard is not as good but if the matches are even and Aussie teams win there will be more viewers and bigger crowds.
Proud Pig
Tom Lawton (22)
Sorry, by shrinking the game I did not mean less teams in Australia. Shrinking was in relation to the fact that Super rugby has 15 teams and that is not sustainable with the available funding.
Rebels3
Jim Lenehan (48)
i thought this was a good read on the plight of Scottish rugby and the changing dynamic they are experiencing.
Some statements made i saw a correlation with somethings that have been said in the news or on these boards.
Although they have different challenges to maneuver through to us, still interesting to hear whats been done to move the game along over there.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/43473255
Some statements made i saw a correlation with somethings that have been said in the news or on these boards.
Although they have different challenges to maneuver through to us, still interesting to hear whats been done to move the game along over there.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/43473255
Yeah, it does matter. All our decent pro players will go overseas. We'll end up producing professional players in this country to a level somewhere between club and NRC. And the Wallabies will be about 8th-10th in the world. Which will adversely affect crowds and sponsors - historically, like it or not, the game at all levels has swung its popularity very much with the fortunes of the Wallabies.
I know what you're saying, but there will be seriously negative consequences.
Strewthcobber
Simon Poidevin (60)
Not to even mention how many players we'd lose overseas for the pay check who would otherwise have played tests for the Wallabies
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Ulrich
Nev Cottrell (35)
A couple of things:
The game needs more money, the audiences are there, lurking. Crowds across SA and AUS have dropped dramatically and so have viewership numbers I would imagine. Only success on the field will improve that. If SA and AUS can double their viewer numbers there will be more money for everyone (including NZ) to pump into their respective local games.
SA have some very good coaches at school level that just don't seem to make the move up. The Lions have stolen Paarl Boys' High's coach recently which is a good move, he took them to 51 unbeaten games and has been involved with the team for several years. When I look at the skills displayed at school level I am dumbfounded as to why this has not translated into successful professional athletes at Super Rugby and Springbok level.
School games are extremely well attended. The school Affies has 1200 students yet fields 30 rugby teams every weekend, all of which are attended by good crowds. Why? Well, they have tradition and they are successful.
I don't know what sports kids play in public schools in Australia, but the ARU should strike a deal with your government if its serious about expanding to offer Rugby Union at most public schools as an option. Incentivise teachers to become coaches of the game. That will greatly help Australia down the line.
All this doom will disappear the moment SA and AUS sides consistently compete for the title instead of once every 5 years or so and also generally only from one franchise. NZ have at least 4 potential title winners every year the last couple of years. The public attend their derbies because they are intense.
Here in ol' SA the Lions have not lost to another SA team for 2 or 3 seasons now.
Fill Loftus, Newlands, Ellis Park etc to near capacity every weekend and things will start changing. You'll only fill them if you win. From SA's perspective the talent is clearly there so it's a structural and coaching issue that's holding us back, and recently some serious mental issues when traveling or facing kiwi teams.
It's been nearly a decade since SA last had a Super Rugby champion. No wonder revenue is down. We're supposed to bring the honey to the table to sweeten the deal but when our teams fail we can't deliver the honey.
The game needs more money, the audiences are there, lurking. Crowds across SA and AUS have dropped dramatically and so have viewership numbers I would imagine. Only success on the field will improve that. If SA and AUS can double their viewer numbers there will be more money for everyone (including NZ) to pump into their respective local games.
SA have some very good coaches at school level that just don't seem to make the move up. The Lions have stolen Paarl Boys' High's coach recently which is a good move, he took them to 51 unbeaten games and has been involved with the team for several years. When I look at the skills displayed at school level I am dumbfounded as to why this has not translated into successful professional athletes at Super Rugby and Springbok level.
School games are extremely well attended. The school Affies has 1200 students yet fields 30 rugby teams every weekend, all of which are attended by good crowds. Why? Well, they have tradition and they are successful.
I don't know what sports kids play in public schools in Australia, but the ARU should strike a deal with your government if its serious about expanding to offer Rugby Union at most public schools as an option. Incentivise teachers to become coaches of the game. That will greatly help Australia down the line.
All this doom will disappear the moment SA and AUS sides consistently compete for the title instead of once every 5 years or so and also generally only from one franchise. NZ have at least 4 potential title winners every year the last couple of years. The public attend their derbies because they are intense.
Here in ol' SA the Lions have not lost to another SA team for 2 or 3 seasons now.
Fill Loftus, Newlands, Ellis Park etc to near capacity every weekend and things will start changing. You'll only fill them if you win. From SA's perspective the talent is clearly there so it's a structural and coaching issue that's holding us back, and recently some serious mental issues when traveling or facing kiwi teams.
It's been nearly a decade since SA last had a Super Rugby champion. No wonder revenue is down. We're supposed to bring the honey to the table to sweeten the deal but when our teams fail we can't deliver the honey.
I thought I did mention it!!
half
Dick Tooth (41)
You are both right.
Such is the competition for sporting talent in Australia and such is the money on offer than if rugby allowed itself to drift to a third tire status say similar to hockey then most talent would head towards, league, AFL, cricket and soccer. The quality of players and more importantly the quality of coaches would see us fall to well below 8 to 10 position.
WE need a professional competition capable of providing, pathways, players and revenue to support a competition. Four teams is well short of whats needed.
CP, you in the proverbial sense have always beaten me, BTW not trying to pick a fight with the next comment, simply illustrating an outcome as I see it.
For as long as I can remember I have always like club rugby, and the days of Ella Ella Ella with the galloping greens are a treasure deep within my mind. I used to long for the Shute Shield clubs to expand and for the development of a national competition. Others and they had the power and influence always put the Wallabies interest first with daylight second.
By focusing for decades on Wallaby interest and everything else had to make way and support the Wallabies we directed our limited resources away from developing a sustainable model.
However coming back to where we are today, as I see it there is no easy solution. More its what solution will hurt less.
I can't see Super Rugby lasting more than a few years and as local revenue dries up maybe holding SA will be more difficult.
Hopefully people are working on how and what to do. Its well beyond me what to do now, all I know we need to see meaningful change.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
In a move that will deeply disappoint the Shute Shield haters out there, Fox Sports are in negotiations to show a replay of the SS televised match of the day at 10 pm on Saturday nights.
This could finally be the start of something good for the game, especially at the grass roots. Anybody who does not enjoy watching the SS does not enjoy rugby.
This could finally be the start of something good for the game, especially at the grass roots. Anybody who does not enjoy watching the SS does not enjoy rugby.
Bandar
Bob Loudon (25)
Either with us or against us type of statement
How many times to the Shute Shield lovers have to be told that the majority of rugby supporters don'y give a rats arse about the comp... As you can see I support the Waratahs but living in country NSW have no ties to any club and don't care... I can only imagine what people in Brisbane, Canberra, Melbourne and Perth think about these types of statements.
I'm happy for the Shute Shield that it might be shown on Fox - not disappointed just don't care enough to watch.
Indeed. I have a mate on social media (who is a Pom) who loves the Aviva premiership and reckons I should be interested in it, for the quality of the rugby. For exactly the reasons you state, I don't have one jot of interest. Same for Qld club rugby etc...........
Without being invested in a team, I cannot see why anyone would give a rat's arse about SS.
The only exception I make to this is watching NZ teams in Super Rugby, because they are just so damn good. And it impacts on the team I support.
Bandar
Bob Loudon (25)
Sorry I thought the point was we select anyone eligible no matter where they are playing.
Sure we will lose players, but save wages and still recall them to Australia during the test window.
I missed this point. In any event, I think it would be less than ideal to select any player from OS for Wallaby duty - how will the coaches really have a good feel for how they are all playing if they are are far flung, and it removes any chance of "working" with them through the season in terms of programmes etc.......?
For very experienced Wallabies, it is less of an issue, as they are more of a known quantity. But still an issue.
It would put the Wallabies at a major disadvantage if the majority of the squad could only assemble a week or less before the start of a test series because that is when the international window starts.
This is where the need for a more Aus-centric pro comp and the national team are at odds. We ideally want the sort of coaching structure NZ has - centralised expertise, overseeing all Super Clubs, ITM etc........with a coherent philosophy that develops players at all levels towards a common level / style of play. It enables players to move from one level to the next more easily as the theory is not changing, only the pace / level / difficulty of the game. I know it's a pipe dream here.
With our upper echelon of players scattered to the winds, this cannot exist meaningfully, and I know it already does not. But it will be demonstrably worse.
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