Where to for Super Rugby?

[Quick Hands]

Whilst I agree that there are a mulititude of issues facing rugby in Australia, many of these are well-ventillated on a number of other threads. (And I'm more than happy to vent on those other threads)

I was more interested in genuine thoughts as to how to improve the super rugby model. IMO, a better super rugby model will go at least some way to helping rugby in Australia. And yes, I realise that of itself changing super rugby won't magically make our other problems go away.

There must be a better way of running this competition.

 

[The torpedo]

Whilst I agree that there are a mulititude of issues facing rugby in Australia, many of these are well-ventillated on a number of other threads. (And I'm more than happy to vent on those other threads)

I was more interested in genuine thoughts as to how to improve the super rugby model. IMO, a better super rugby model will go at least some way to helping rugby in Australia. And yes, I realise that of itself changing super rugby won't magically make our other problems go away.

There must be a better way of running this competition.

If I'm honest, all the ARU threads should be merged into a new thread called the 'ARU megathread'.

Plus ban all new threads being posted about the ARU

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I agree but at the moment 5 nz sides against 5 oz.sides when we are well.below it won't help bring the financial and fan support whilst we try to Bridge the gap. So what's the solution and genuine question as clearly no easy answers so I think any ideas on the subject would be welcome. Thanks in advance dan54

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Actually if we think about it afl and nrl are pitted against playing against the best in a strong domestic competition so hence able to be best in world against other nations. That is where our flaws are. We need to be more selfish and look after own interests by creating a strong domestic competition and then if that is achieved performances at international level will follow as happens in codes like nrl and football. Our super rugby involvement should be similar to Heineken cup as to be frank that would sustain our interest enough and test us against the best. I actually now realise where our problem is lies in belief we need super rugby as our main form of professional competition.

Our problem is our over Reliance on super rugby and our flawed thinking we need super rugby more than nz and south Africa who already have strong domestic competitions.

Nope we need to remove our Reliance on super rugby as that is what is our fundamental problem with rugby in oz is.

As clearly the answer does not lie for oz Rugby in super rugby or at least in its current format which negates and does not encourage a strong domestic completon in oz which maybe yes could be achieved with better conference structure in super rugby or new domestic competition.



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[dru]

It seems most of us agree that the best thing for rugby in Australia would be a Trans-Tasman or Asia-Pacific tournament that links up with South Africa and South America only for a few weeks at the end, in either a separate cup tournament involving everyone, or a champions league for the best 8 or 12 teams plus a challenge cup for the rest.

But if the NZRU aren't willing to do this what is our plan B? Would it be better to downsize to 4 teams and stay in a full length multi-continental super rugby, or go off on our own outside of test rugby? And if the latter what is possible?

Could Australian rugby prosper with a new home and away tournament featuring say our 5 existing teams, a 6th in Western Sydney (the Rams?), a Fijian team and the Sunwolves? Our 6 teams could be allowed to sign up to approx 25% international players. Is this a workable plan B? If not then what is? Because we need one.

Omar, even if you are wrong (imo you are not) we need that B Plan. The very real chance is that whatever NZRU and SARU thinks suits them, does not suit us. More of the same will further set back professional rugby in Aus. At best.

Time to work that B Plan. Seriously. And be avtually ready to pull the pin when Super doesnt suit. One thing for absolute certain - this is not the time to even suggest we will contemplate reducing teams.

Sort out the comp SANZAAR, or once this deal is done, we are out. That is what the ARU should be saying right now behind the scenes.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Whilst I agree that there are a mulititude of issues facing rugby in Australia, many of these are well-ventillated on a number of other threads. (And I'm more than happy to vent on those other threads)

I was more interested in genuine thoughts as to how to improve the super rugby model. IMO, a better super rugby model will go at least some way to helping rugby in Australia. And yes, I realise that of itself changing super rugby won't magically make our other problems go away.

There must be a better way of running this competition.

Unfortunately compared to NZ and SA we have an overdependence on Super Rugby for professional rugby compared to their own domestic competitions (Curry cup etc ) so from Oz perspective don't think you can separate these issues re: absence of strong domestic professional competition in Oz for rugby.

 

[Gnostic]

You really are a special kind of stupid if you think a semi amateur club side would have done better vs the Hurricanes. The naivety of your argument is understandable though seeing as you are a believer that the Earth revolves around Sydney.

So, Australia had a dominant period on the international stage from the late 90s to the early 200s, my question would be what was done to consolidate Australian rugbys pathways to ensure that dominance would continue into the future during that period?

New Zealand revamped their whole national setup during this time and are rightfully reaping the rewards. What was the ARU (whilst under majority NSW influence) doing?

They were standing back patting each other on the back and investing their money poorly, not at moment did they map out a blueprint for future success. They expected it to continue, much like our government and the mining boom. The 2003 world cup money was completely wasted propping up and paying Sydney clubs to poach each others players, or pissing it up against the wall to put it more eloquently. There was no blueprint, no forward planning and no refinement and development of our future pathways. Where does that leave us now? Playing catchup to our New Zealand neighbours.

It took until 2014 for the ARU to wrestle control of the national finances from the Sydney old buys club and realise that we need to be shoring up our pathways to super rugby by introducing a 3rd tier national comp and academy setups at each of the professional franchises to focus on elite development. Training twice a week and playing a game on Saturday is just not enogh any more to develop elite athletes. Exposing the next generations to the rigours of the full time professional set ups of the Super Rugby teams is a much better apprenticeship than learning from part time coaches who simply cannot give them the same programs or resources afforded to the best players.

These pathways will also go a long way to improving our coaches as more coaches will be exposed to what it takes to make it to the top. This is the major area for mine that we need to improve and with the National coach and the Super Rugby and NRC coaches starting to work together and more idea sharing happening i expect it to improve. Seeing as the majority of club junior coaching is done by a volunteer parent whose trying to do their best, you cannot expect the volunteer parent to run a professional rugby standard coaching set up. To get accreditation to coach is simply a 1-2 hr smart rugby course that does not prepare the volunteer parent with enough knowledge in most cases to pass on the correct skills and knowledge to players. There are exceptions of course of ex players getting involved but it is simply not the case for every junior team in Australia. This is where the work of development officers and junior elite pathways are needed to bridge the gap between the volunteer parent trying their best and players starting the journey towards the elite levels.

As ive stated above, as a whole Australian rugby has sat on its hands and let our competitors get ahead of us in terms of development work. We sat back and thought we could rely on semi amateur clubs to get us through and it didn't work. Now we are playing catchup. We need what New Zealand has, 100 kids competing for every pathway opportunity in each position in each state at every level, age to grade rugby. The quicker we get on with the job of deepening our talent pool the better off we will be. If we shrink the talent pool back from Super teams and NRC back to clubs, then we are consigning our rugby future to Australia being consistently a nation ranked between 10 and 30 in the world. Its gonna take a bit of patience and a couple more years but the talent is coming and our pathways need consolidating and critical analysis for us to reap the rewards, not backwards thinking and major regression of what we are building.

Hello Bill. Since I haven't lived in Sydney for about 25 years I doubt I think anything except certain crime groups revolves around the place. I must be a very special kind of stupid since along with others I was predicting the current outcomes in terms of financial issues, playing skills, coaching skills, viewership etc etc etc probably when you were still wetting your sheets. I was arguing back then about sustainable expansion and systems if you want to go back to my very firsts posts here and care to track them down on other forums before I found this place.

However don't let little things like truth and accuracy get in the way of your ranting. I think if you really want to look a bit more closely most of the 2003 RWC money was pissed up the wall on payments to the various snouts who worked their way to the great ARU trough, and by the state RUs who got money with no requirements on performance and long term planning and systems. So I do agree with you that the ARU and state RUs are incompetent at best, and in some instances could be considered worse.

Australian Rugby has unfortunately past the point of being able to sustain sides and competitions that do not produce results on or off the field. This is not just my view but that of many who have followed the game for a very long time and are financially much better learned than I.

As for critical analysis - LOL (edit LOL because no where did I even bring up reduction of teams, or the NRC yet that was the whole basis of your rant quoting my post which you did not address.)

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Omar, even if you are wrong (imo you are not) we need that B Plan. The very real chance is that whatever NZRU and SARU thinks suits them, does not suit us. More of the same will further set back professional rugby in Aus. At best.

Time to work that B Plan. Seriously. And be avtually ready to pull the pin when Super doesnt suit. One thing for absolute certain - this is not the time to even suggest we will contemplate reducing teams.

Sort out the comp SANZAAR, or once this deal is done, we are out. That is what the ARU should be saying right now behind the scenes.

You know what is funny is SA and NZ rugby unions are without doubt less concerned with Super Rugby compared to us (not saying not concerned but we definitely have more concerns given our greater dependency on Super Rugby as only professional rugby opportunities below wallabies). As yes NZ and SA already have strong domestic professional competitions below super rugby. Our problem is over-reliance on extended Heinkin Cup format that does not work in long form, especially where no domestic professional competition underpinning it. Why do you think Soccer has not gone down same path and instead has Asian Champions League (read: on top of focus on creating strong domestic A-league professional competition and seeking to expand).

Nope Super Rugby is dead as long form competition to pin oz rugbys fortunes on and we need a strong domestic professional competition which following NRL model could do same as involving few extra sides outside of that like they have done with the warriors. But first and foremost it should be an Australian professional rugby domestic competition that invites sides outside of oz into this where we have control.

Yes hard to create this but being hard versus only way rugby will survive means just have to work harder to somehow work out how to make it happen.

 

[Dan54]

I agree but at the moment 5 nz sides against 5 oz.sides when we are well.below it won't help bring the financial and fan support whilst we try to Bridge the gap. So what's the solution and genuine question as clearly no easy answers so I think any ideas on the subject would be welcome. Thanks in advance dan54

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I honestly believe the answer is in coaching, and I believe at all levels. I know what you say about the fan support RugbyN, but do you really think the crowds will come out to see Aus teams play Sunwolves etc? I am not so sure. I know I keep reading that rugby union is ingrained in NZ etc, but take my word for it although I by far the most popular sport in NZ, it not as ingrained as it used to be.
One of the differences seems to me to be the skill level with the ball in hand at the moment, yet League also has very similar running and passing skills etc, so you would think these skills would be reasonably ingrained in Aussie kids too. So I not sure if it a general thing that kids here don't actually get taught the skills in either sport, or maybe more importantly don't actually practice the skills outside of team trainings etc. Most kiwis will tell of seeing kids continually playing touch, or league or even gridiron type games at school intervals all of which is part of helping to be comfortable handling the ball.
Perhaps one place that league does have a bad effect on kids that play it a lot here is it (I believe) creates 'lazy' players, and the other big difference I tend to see between the countries at moment is the support play, watch when a team kicks to a NZ team how hard players work to get back to support and so start a counterattack, and I not sure playing slightly easier teams will help to overcome this.
Australia's biggest problem I still think in coaching etc, was once it's strength, and that was the Rod MacQueen and then Eddie Jones ideas of structures, everything seemed to be played in a certain way and recycled ball is always 'king', and the game has moved in, recycled ball is no good if you just look how you can keep recycling it, and don't try and score with it! Also you have to look at trying more these days from set play. Really when you have the ball use it? To often when a ball is kicked to the Aus teams lately the first urge seems to be kick it back or to open field, and not to look at how to attack and then kick it if it not on.
Ok I probably rambled on there a bit, and still didn't explain it as well as I should of, but they are things that need to be addressed I think and if I would add one other thing is to not use excuses like
1 The ref is against us!! (if I was ARU I would kick Chuckles up the arse everytime he whinges about refs or newspapers etc as non union people use these headlines to not follow game as in I.E. noone like us in union)
2 NZ beat us because the game in No 1 there! Wallabies and Aus teams have beaten NZ and NZ teams reasonably often and the game was still No1 in NZ then!! You cannot win rugby easily or get to the top easily it takes bloody hard work!! And take my word for it NZRU etc do work bloody hard to keep it that way.

 

[Dan54]

Lol and sorry for rant in above post, but I love rugby and really want it to do well here in Aus as well as in NZ

 

[Gnostic]

I honestly believe the answer is in coaching,




Australia's biggest problem I still think in coaching etc, was once it's strength, and that was the Rod MacQueen and then Eddie Jones ideas of structures, everything seemed to be played in a certain way and recycled ball is always 'king', and the game has moved in, recycled ball is no good if you just look how you can keep recycling it, and don't try and score with it! .

Great post DAN54. I picked two parts in particular that I have always thought. Macqueen killed a lot of the skill base with his endless recycle game, I mean you don't need a great lot of skill when you hbold the ball for 75%+ of the game and just bash away until you get through like the old endless tackle league where I think he got the idea. Worked brilliantly no doubt, and made use of the "interpretations" as they were but it made anybody at lower levels wanting to be a Wallaby try to emulate the "skills" that got players selected for the Macqueen game, hence nobody can effectively kick the ball from hand in Oz since then (after Burke and Latham retired).

As for Jones, his plan was very regimented and he made a purely % based assessment of the scrum and essentially devalued it and at the lineout relied on aging stars to hold that set piece together while the play by the numbers was worked through. Since Eddie we have had 15 years of barely competent props and nobody to really teach how to do it because everyone who wanted to be a prop trained to be Matt Dunning and Al Baxter et al.

Then along comes the Robbie Deans era when we probably would have seen the same results without a coach because nobody knew what was required or what the plan would be month to month.

So coming up to 20 years of National coaching "systems" that have been structured to garner short term gains at best. Sounds like politicians governing for the next election from day 1, tinkering at the edges and achieving nothing of lasting consequence.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I honestly believe the answer is in coaching, and I believe at all levels. I know what you say about the fan support RugbyN, but do you really think the crowds will come out to see Aus teams play Sunwolves etc? I am not so sure. I know I keep reading that rugby union is ingrained in NZ etc, but take my word for it although I by far the most popular sport in NZ, it not as ingrained as it used to be.
One of the differences seems to me to be the skill level with the ball in hand at the moment, yet League also has very similar running and passing skills etc, so you would think these skills would be reasonably ingrained in Aussie kids too. So I not sure if it a general thing that kids here don't actually get taught the skills in either sport, or maybe more importantly don't actually practice the skills outside of team trainings etc. Most kiwis will tell of seeing kids continually playing touch, or league or even gridiron type games at school intervals all of which is part of helping to be comfortable handling the ball.
Perhaps one place that league does have a bad effect on kids that play it a lot here is it (I believe) creates 'lazy' players, and the other big difference I tend to see between the countries at moment is the support play, watch when a team kicks to a NZ team how hard players work to get back to support and so start a counterattack, and I not sure playing slightly easier teams will help to overcome this.
Australia's biggest problem I still think in coaching etc, was once it's strength, and that was the Rod MacQueen and then Eddie Jones ideas of structures, everything seemed to be played in a certain way and recycled ball is always 'king', and the game has moved in, recycled ball is no good if you just look how you can keep recycling it, and don't try and score with it! Also you have to look at trying more these days from set play. Really when you have the ball use it? To often when a ball is kicked to the Aus teams lately the first urge seems to be kick it back or to open field, and not to look at how to attack and then kick it if it not on.
Ok I probably rambled on there a bit, and still didn't explain it as well as I should of, but they are things that need to be addressed I think and if I would add one other thing is to not use excuses like
1 The ref is against us!! (if I was ARU I would kick Chuckles up the arse everytime he whinges about refs or newspapers etc as non union people use these headlines to not follow game as in I.E. noone like us in union)
2 NZ beat us because the game in No 1 there! Wallabies and Aus teams have beaten NZ and NZ teams reasonably often and the game was still No1 in NZ then!! You cannot win rugby easily or get to the top easily it takes bloody hard work!! And take my word for it NZRU etc do work bloody hard to keep it that way.

Thanks Dan54 appreciate listening to what you have to say and reflect more on this as subject interested in but need to explain how sunwolves involvement would work but not really necessarily the primary focus (but some add on commercial benefits longer term - hence see below).

Strong domestic competition with stronger involvement of other outside sides better like league and warriors involvement where equivalent would be involving fiji side as they would be major drawcard in oz competition as bloody talented footballers and secondly strong fijian community in Oz which would help with support. Sunwolves involvement would help though with commercials as Japan incredibly attractive commercially given size and eyes (have you seen crowds at Sunwolves games! and remember audience figures they got for World Cup games from japanese viewers tuning in) and hence for TV money as whilst not many oz fans might tune in probably irrelevant given comparative size and potential of Japanese market if you get my drift.

So yes strong domestic competition with say fijian side and sunwolves could work for reasons outlined. Pinning our hopes just on super rugby just won't work - or at least in current format which diminishes any domestic focus for Oz sides where no professional domestic competition below super rugby.

But back to your basic tenement about needing to improve coaching. Certainly agree is a major problem and yes Mick Byrne (sorry if spelt name wrong as I am terrible with names and remembering them and how spelt, no I really am) was part of that solution at Super rugby and wallabies level, as is move to Moore Park and basing lot of sides there but yes at grass roots level where all starts and recognised and vaguely remember initiatives here to address this (are they enough I don't know) and so yes probably more to be done - others more involved at grass roots can comment here.

You are probably 100% right on this Dan54 that NZ has better systems and processes which includes coaching. That is outside of my area to probably comment on but yes seems to be accepted problem you have highlighted that needs to be addressed. How we can learn and apply what has been successful elsewhere would be helpful as if we can avoid reinventing the wheel would be better.

 

[Quick Hands]

If I'm honest, all the ARU threads should be merged into a new thread called the 'ARU megathread'.

Plus ban all new threads being posted about the ARU

Although this thread ISN"T about the ARU - which is the point I was subtly making.

 

[Quick Hands]

Unfortunately compared to NZ and SA we have an overdependence on Super Rugby for professional rugby compared to their own domestic competitions (Curry cup etc ) so from Oz perspective don't think you can separate these issues re: absence of strong domestic professional competition in Oz for rugby.

The trouble is, if we keep getting sidetracked about all the other issues, then super rugby will never be improved.

 

[half]

As a whole Australian rugby has sat on our hands and let our competitors get ahead of us . .

This has been my argument for maybe 40 years. Super Rugby even when it started was a media company creation which we grabbed it in panic over league.

For the love of Mary we have placed our fate in Australia in the hands of a subscription media company.

Quick you asked what can we do to fix / help Super Rugby, actually SFA . Fox want subscribers and thats all they we allow anyone to do. Tell Fox how to left subscription rates and they will support it.

Take away Fox's money and the Roar nay panicked scream of those left is absolute fear of going out by ourselves. Madness Australian Rugby as we know it will be torn to shreds.

Well it is headed that way already .

While we still have the level of support we do, lets have ready when this current media deals ends our own competition set up broadcast via youtube or facebook.

If we got 200,000 subscribers @ 15.00 a month, thats 36 million. Thats a good start and in time maybe others broadcasters will come on board.

 

[The torpedo]

Although this thread ISN"T about the ARU - which is the point I was subtly making.

Well it wasn't meant to be.

Perhaps we need a change to Godwin's law (aka law 23) from what it currently is to this:

Given enough time, all threads on G&GR will eventually be about Quade Cooper the ARU. (there are only 22 laws of rugby)

 

[The torpedo]

1 The ref is against us!! (if I was ARU I would kick Chuckles up the arse everytime he whinges about refs or newspapers etc as non union people use these headlines to not follow game as in I.E. noone like us in union)

The only shitty ref decisions are the ones that go against MY team

 

[TOCC]

Super Rugby is done in its current form..

It's place should be as an elite champions cup after a short domestic season.

Super Rugby is critical to playing at an intensity to improve the Wallabies, but a domestic cometiton or mini-season is necessary to provide to content and a product that appeals to FTA broadcasters..

Australian Rugby can't survive with only 6 games a year on FTA.

 

[The torpedo]

Super Rugby is done in its current form..

It's place should be as an elite champions cup after a short domestic season.

Super Rugby is critical to playing at an intensity to improve the Wallabies, but a domestic completion or mini-season is necessary to provide to content and a product that appeals to FTA broadcasters..

Australian Rugby can't survive with only 6 games a year on FTA.

So move the Currie Cup, ITM Cup and NRC to where super rugby currently is, then do a Heineken cup style tournament after the season?

 

[TOCC]

So move the Currie Cup, ITM Cup and NRC to where super rugby currently is, then do a Heineken cup style tournament after the season?

Looking specifically at Australia, I think the current teams are the right teams to continue with in the immediate future, that is a domestic season based on the current 5 team, which would then be immediately followed by a Champions League format.

Split the Champions League as well, make it two tiers.. it serves no benefit to have teams like the Sunwolves and Rebels(sorry hate to say it) playing against teams like the Hurricanes.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

TOCC you are on the right track as already works in football (soccer) in Europe with Champions League and then competition below it.

We might (?) be able to have more teams in Oz format where only top say 2 go into Champions League format etc.

But maybe yes we start with 5 if that is all we could commercially sustain. Maybe throw in a Fiji and sunwolves into that as they may work....maybe though as all about commercials and numbers to support TV deals. As we are wedded to how appealing this domestic format would be to broadcasters.....and broadcast deal.