Where to for Super Rugby?

[stoff]

I don't really understand why the ARU would be nervous about a B&I Lions test in 2025. It's a goldmine to any city and will sell out wherever it is held.

Whether the non Sydney/Brisbane test is held in Melbourne or Perth, both state governments would be keen for the event largely because it brings so many travelling fans who will spend numerous days in the city. It's a no-brainer to throw a few million dollars behind in bidding for the event.

depends on whether they are going for Docklands or the MCG. At Docklands little difference. At MCG about 40'000 seats difference. In ticket revenue it's almost another brisbane test matches worth if they went that way.



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[Ruggo]

The Force must stay. Piss the Rebels off if somebody has to go. Merge them with the Brumbies for all I care. Force are showing promise where the Rebels have regressed. Given we are talking about rugby, it may actually be helpful to refer to the rugby.

Fact is all the Australian sides are baskets of shit. QLD and NSW can't run and hide amongst this. They also are pathetically underperforming. Speaking of underperformance, that brings us to the swill that is the ARU.

Heads need to role given the way they manage the game. Super Rugby is a good product that has been botched by the national body. It goes from bad to worse with these clowns. There is so much self interest that there is no friggin' way a coherent national strategy could arise. Pulver has to go and the next CEO would be better to know nothing about Australian Rugby. They just need to know about professional sport management. The less they know about rugby the better as they won't be poisoned by its toxicity in this country. It needs fresh perspective to grow to its potential. It needs to captivate that wider audience to be viable. Then like its competitors, it will develop the social capital to be sustainable for generations to come.

They say there isn't the talent to have 5 teams. that's bullshit. There needs to be better ways of dispersing the talent. Some modeling around a draft wouldn't hurt.

The woes in Australian rugby are systemic and it needs bold and coherent national policy to rectify. It is a deliverable I don't think the traditional conservative base of rugby can achieve.

 

[NTT]

2 posts deleted in the same month? That's a new record for me!

Im still at a loss how my responding to personal attacks and misassumptions about my character in the form of hearsay and my adherence to site rules about not dragging out petty squabbles leads to my censorship. Such is life.


Leave it alone mate, I appreciate this is emotional, you are still here and not given a rest, but simply no FP

 

[amirite]

Ahem...

In my view taking at 18 and 17yo is very different from a player post-Under 20s who has the Wallaby reserve and a club veteran in front of him.

I'm not super bitter, I'm just talking about how this will negatively effect local rugby. In my view it's likely both Valetini and Lomax were simple offered better contracts elsewhere.

 

[Braveheart81]

depends on whether they are going for Docklands or the MCG. At Docklands little difference. At MCG about 40'000 seats difference. In ticket revenue it's almost another brisbane test matches worth if they went that way.

I would hold it at the MCG but the 2013 test was at Docklands.

Now that Perth will have a 60k rectangular stadium it is very viable to have it there too.

 

[Tex]

Obviously disagree with your first para, but wholeheartedly support the rest.

Blows my mind how recalcitrant and slow the sport is to support professional structures and policies to equally disperse talent. Shake up the cozy pathways from Brisbane and Sydney schools>clubs>S15. If youngsters are committed to a professional career then start a national draft, spread the gems and get serious about supporting the game outside its historic centres.

Edit: to Ruggo

 

[The torpedo]

At any time in that S18 formulation process, whatever SARU said or banged the table over, the ARU could have said 'this will kill rugby in Australia if it proceeds, we categorically veto it until a proposal is found that meaningfully equates to the survival and prosperity of rugby in Australia'.

History shows they did no such thing.

History shows the ARU was entranced by the extra short-term media income then on offer, and, yet again in a long history of serious strategic mistakes, neglected to consider how the new S18 format would likely denude and damage the quality of games and teams playing the game in Australia. They were in their corporate psyche short-term money oriented, not strategically oriented at all in terms of the one thing that really matters: the consistent quality of professional rugby presented to fans, and not in any way the quantity of it.

When the S18 was announced, the ARU revelled in both self- and SANZAAR-related praise over what a wonderful deal it all was, great for fans, global rugby, $ income etc. They portrayed a cadence of being thrilled over the whole 'S18 breakthrough'.

Laying the blame on SARU is the soft option which does not get to the heart of the matter, namely the entire episode is proof-point #116, if more were needed, that Australian rugby is extraordinarily poorly run and governed and gutless.

FTFY

 

[Braveheart81]

If youngsters are committed to a professional career then start a national draft, spread the gems and get serious about supporting the game outside its historic centres.

The challenge are the dollars available for those players. In AFL the dollars for a rookie are substantial and the size of squads (and playing VFL or NEAFL etc.) means that lots of players get drafted each year and the salary is reasonable to make someone relocate.

If an EPS contract is around $60k and many of the 18-20 year olds are below that in development or wider training squads, it makes it very difficult to say to someone that you have to relocate.

I agree with the overall concept though and we need to find a better way to distribute players.

 

[amirite]

Obviously disagree with your first para, but wholeheartedly support the rest.

Blows my mind how recalcitrant and slow the sport is to support professional structures and policies to equally disperse talent. Shake up the cozy pathways from Brisbane and Sydney schools>clubs>S15. If youngsters are committed to a professional career then start a national draft, spread the gems and get serious about supporting the game outside its historic centres.

Edit: to Ruggo

I don't think a draft is the answer. Treating players like adults and having a marketplace is a good thing. Plus, the lifestyle you live on an entry level contract in rugby is pretty sparse without family support. Imagine being a young bloke forced to live in Melbourne or Perth off it.

This whole farce really points to centralisation being a necessary thing. IDK if the ARU are the organisation worth trusting though.

A group of people sitting in an office somewhere saying "you know what, I don't think it's in our national interested for Rodda and Tui to sign for the same club" (as an example) would be a good thing. From there, ask the the player and manager "why?", if their answer is "there's a great Uni degree there" or "my family/gf lives there", then fair enough. But if it's just "they asked first", well then a conversation needs to be had.

 

[gel]

I understand proponents of both sides pushing the case for their teams to remain. But it's important to remember that both teams are failures across most available metrics.

Taking away grassroots development (an important part of the debate without question, but just one part), it's hard to point to any successes that either the Force or Rebels have had. Aside from the Mauritius 10s.

Both sides don't win many rugby matches, and as a result crowds have stayed away and TV channels have been changed. They are both financial basket cases, with the ARU having to sink massive amounts of cash in to both just to keep them afloat.

There is no evidence that any of this will change any time soon.

Whose fault is this? Well that's a broader question and I certainly understand that it doesn't rest solely with the teams themselves - they've been facing an uphill battle due to environmental/administration failures beyond their control.

But I think (understandably) the commentary from both Rebels and Force fans has been a bit too willing to overlook the above factors.

I don't even know what point I was trying to make now I get to the end of this post, and it probably sounds overly harsh. I suppose what I'm saying is it's easy to overplay the positives of rugby in Perth/Melbourne, when it's very much a 'least worst' scenario at this point in time.
.

And unfortunately for the Force, the Japanese team occupies a later timezone so the reality of the broadcasting situation (who pay the bills) means that they are in an awfully precarious position.

It's awful.

 

[Micheal]

I don't think a draft is the answer. Treating players like adults and having a marketplace is a good thing. Plus, the lifestyle you live on an entry level contract in rugby is pretty sparse without family support. Imagine being a young bloke forced to live in Melbourne or Perth off it.

On 50-60k a year?!

I know plenty of entry level consultants or accountants at the Big 4 who manage to live quite comfortably off that (or less) in Sydney (please keep in mind my sister in Melbourne has half a small mansion for what me and my friends pay for a cupboard in a share house in Sydney).

They'll live.

 

[Teh Other Dave]

I understand proponents of both sides pushing the case for their teams to remain. But it's important to remember that both teams are failures across most available metrics.

Taking away grassroots development (an important part of the debate without question, but just one part), it's hard to point to any successes that either the Force or Rebels have had. Aside from the Mauritius 10s.

.

Funny, I seem to recall that the Waratahs took seven seasons to crack the super 12 finals, despite the advantages being a traditional rugby state, having the Shute Shield for development, and having the luxury of casting of quality players to ACT. The NSWRU also required an ARU bailout in the early 2000s.

Edit: Let's not forget the woes of the QRU and the Reds in all of this!

My point's obviously not for canning the Tahs, but to suggest that maybe our expectations of the Force and Rebels have been very high, and that these things can be turned around.

 

[amirite]

It's important to remember that both teams are failures across most available metrics.

Fair.

My opinion (though it's just a theory) is that it's an issue of these teams (Force and Rebels) being far too conservative for expansion sides in competitive markets, and perhaps a little of the ARU not helping enough (I'm not talking financially).

I mean look how much the AFL helped GWS and GC. In the Rebels' case, the ARU mostly just sent a talented but aged coach and 2 talented but unruly young players over for 2 years. Even then, was that the ARU's doing?

Perhaps they can be more effective in a 4 team marketplace, now that code hops and international signings seem to be more common. Hard to tell.

 

[amirite]

On 50-60k a year?!

I know plenty of entry level consultants or accountants at the Big 4 who manage to live quite comfortably off that (or less) in Sydney (please keep in mind my sister in Melbourne has half a small mansion for what me and my friends pay for a cupboard in a share house in Sydney).

They'll live.

I don't think EPS players get paid that much. I've heard as little at $38k.

If you've got the numbers, fair enough. But, I've talked actual players about this in the past.

 

[amirite]

Question for those in the know - have the Force recently explored privatisation? If they haven't, why?

Whilst privatisation costs the ARU money, it obviously costs them less.

 

[blues recovery]

Fair.

My opinion (though it's just a theory) is that it's an issue of these teams (Force and Rebels) being far too conservative for expansion sides in competitive markets, and perhaps a little of the ARU not helping enough (I'm not talking financially).

I mean look how much the AFL helped GWS and GC. In the Rebels' case, the ARU mostly just sent a talented but aged coach and 2 talented but unruly young players over for 2 years. Even then, was that the ARU's doing?

Perhaps they can be more effective in a 4 team marketplace, now that code hops and international signings seem to be more common. Hard to tell.

ARU played no role in Rods appointment in fact vehemently opposed it .
Likewise tried very hard to keep Beale at the Tahs . In hindsight would have been good if they had succeeded in that front.
Rebels haven't been too conservative probably the opposite .
From my understanding signing Beale , JOC (James O'Connor) and Higgers was seen as a quick opportunity to try to get some on field success that might cure the financial position that was dire from the outset . This clearly failed .
It's one of the downsides of private ownership that short term thinking and stopping the financial bleeding is more important than building a sustainable
overall structure. Especially when the owner is completely disengaged from the sport and generally the club . This is not say that Mitchell wasn't very generous but he quickly became disenchanted when it was clear he was sold a pup just as I now suspect Cox is feeling

 

[Tex]

Question for those in the know - have the Force recently explored privatisation? If they haven't, why?

Whilst privatisation costs the ARU money, it obviously costs them less.

Does their IPO count?

 

[amirite]

Does their IPO count?

Is it a traditional IPO though? My understand is it's more buying a voting stake on Force than anything else. Like anything, perhaps I misunderstood.

ARU played no role in Rods appointment in fact vehemently opposed it .
Likewise tried very hard to keep Beale at the Tahs . In hindsight would have been good if they had succeeded in that front.
Rebels haven't been too conservative probably the opposite .
From my understanding signing Beale , JOC (James O'Connor) and Higgers was seen as a quick opportunity to try to get some on field success that might cure the financial position that was dire from the outset . This clearly failed .
It's one of the downsides of private ownership that short term thinking and stopping the financial bleeding is more important than building a sustainable
overall structure. Especially when the owner is completely disengaged from the sport and generally the club . This is not say that Mitchell wasn't very generous but he quickly became disenchanted when it was clear he was sold a pup just as I now suspect Cox is feeling

I feel like signing established names for big dollars is a very conservative stance.

It's possible Cox has all the feeling you say he does, but IDK if it's likely.

 

[Leo86]

Firstly im stubborn, so i still want 5 teams

Rebels supporters and brumbies fans for a bit there im sure we can have a mutual respect for this shit show. I understand the passion coming from both sides and wont hold it against any. Tahs and Reds supporters some (only some) of your views have been a good perspective.

My thoughts are now that according to Tew there might be more of a shake up in 2020 (why the f@ck are we gonna do this again) why not keep the 18 teams try out the 3x6 conference to the end of the broadcast deal. See if the Force and Rebels can sort out their financial positions. Ive paid up to owntheforce.

Of course weve got depth just bloody Europe has access to it all. Outside of the draft system the NBL has a player points cap system. Developement players and youngsters are low, wallabies players would be high. Consideration is given to loyalty. Say if walkabies were 5 point players DHP, Hooper would you be 4 points. Pocock, Moore and the likes would be 5 pointers.

ARU needs to be sacked, their interest are not that of the good of Australian rugby.

I still think we all as rugby fans need to show our dissatisfaction toward ARU/SANZAAR and try get this short sighted decision over thrown.

United we stand, apart we fall

 

[wamberal]

At the end of the day, it's not about what the fans want, or the individual unions want, it is basically about what the host broadcasters are prepared to pay the most for.