Where to for Super Rugby?

[kiap]

Hanan and Seddon shields don't even cover all of one island.

If that's your criterion, then the pre-1900 inter-district comps and country carnivals in NSW and Qld would also, to that extent, be domestic comps … likely the Shute/Hospital as well …

They're really regional (or city) competitions.

 

[Dan54]

could be any number of reasons…

Revenue sharing agreements may have been reached.
Might have been a stipulation for continuing the rugby championship/additionally Bledisloe. Or even something like ensuring a NZRU vote for Australia’s 2027 RWC bid.

You can criticise Hamish Mcelann, but what was put to him 12 months ago by that fluffybunny of a NZRU CEO was scrapping 2 Australians teams and the ultimate collapse of professional rugby in Australia. The man has done more with less then any other sporting administrator in Australia during the pandemic as far as I’m concerned. Doesn’t mean it’s perfect though.

You keep coming up with NZ scrapped 2 Aus teams, and somehow caused the collapse of pro rugby in Aus . How they proposed a comp with from 8-10 teams and hopefully a PI team, what is very conveniently is forgotten (or to be fair you may not of known) when the structure of proposed comp was suggested , Austraia only had 4 super teams as RA had dropped one a few years before. I not criticising anyone, just asking if he has signed for this so called end of the world super comp when a domestic comp was the answer to all yourprob , is he competent?
I saying he (or RA) signed up for what is best for Rugby in Aus ----a super comp. Look all I saying it can't be as bad as some of you making out or NO competent administration would sign up for it. You can't have it both ways, RA with Hamish at the helm is either doing what is best for Aus rugby or they are incompetent!! Personally I think they doing what is best!

 

[hoggy]

They are doing what is best for a specific group of people that have always been looked after under the current set up. Look its a catch 22 and you are right why the fuck don't the RA walk away and start there own domestic comp.
But sadly that requires a whole level of letting go of self interest, and as has been pointed out, whats the one thing you can bet on.

 

[Dan54]

Hanan and Seddon comps don't even cover all of one island.

If that's your criterion, then the pre-1900 district comps and country carnivals in NSW and Qld would also, to that extent, be domestic comps … likely the Shute/Hospital as well …

They're really regional (or city) competitions.

No Hanan and Seddon etc were inter provincial comps, by geez you don't provinces in NZ if you think they the same as club comp. they were rep teams exactly as Wellington, Manawatu, etc etc are now. But basically that's what NZ provincial rugby is a series of regions, we don't have states so we have regions we call provinces.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

So let us go away for 20 years, build a domestic comp that can actually sustain a Super Rugby side?

As you say, strong Super Rugby sides can sustain a strong Wallabies. But NZ don't just have strong Super Rugby sides, they have the NPC.

Yes, ideally, we would have both. But RA over the years have fucked it up continuously and we realistically now only have the resources for one form of the game.

Yep we manage to kill the game in supporter base etc that now have much less choices. The problem was they tried to create a ARC and got the model wrong and then left it to super rugby to be the heavy lifter on a model that became outdated with nrl and afl expansion at both grass roots and pro level

 

[Dan54]

Yep we manage to kill the game in supporter base etc that now have much less choices. The problem was they tried to create a ARC and got the model wrong and then left it to super rugby to be the heavy lifter on a model that became outdated with nrl and afl expansion at both grass roots and pro level

And that is rugby Australia's main problem in a nutshell!!
I would think it a great idea to rebuild the whole thing back up from the bottom, the problem is finances, and I pretty sure RA know they can't do it. I refuse to believe RA has signed up to a comp that is so bad for Rugby in the country, because if it has they are incompetent! Surely you can see that, RA have a pretty good idea of where the game has to go and how to do it, well I would hope!

 

[KOB1987]

Great an answer, so why were the plethora of domestic comps up to 2003. A domestic comp should of always survived with Super. And I struggling to think of the plethora when I was there 1996- 2003. And how did super kill this plethora of comps!

Obviously these comps were all regionally based, Australia is obviously way too big for a national comp, especially when it’s amateur. But it culminated in a representative season, and the top players would play for their clubs - in fact it wasn’t unheard of for players to turn out for the Wallabies on the Saturday and their club on the Sunday. And they weren’t all the premier clubs, they were places like Orange, Armidale and Quirindi. Super Rugby killed this because the players couldn’t play for their club anymore and there was nothing for the amateur players to aspire too, and the fans lost interest because there were fuck all home games and incompatible game times. Also, there aren’t enough spots for professional players locally, hence the exodus overseas. You may say that it was professionalism that killed all this, and in a sense you’d be right, but it’s not hard to be creative and come up with an adaptation of our previous amateur model that fits into the pro mould, complete with tribalism.

All that said, I think that the current format could be a precursor to a representative type format, but with the respective domestic comps preceding it. I feel that with the current Covid environment, trying to get a domestic comp going by February has too many unknowns, I mean even the premier of WA is saying that when the rest of the country opens up he’s keeping his borders closed WTF. Sticking with the current 5 teams for a year or 2 more makes sense, but I hope there is something going on in the background that’s a bit more long sighted to save the code and ultimately grow it. I do sense this is the case.

 

[Dan54]

They are doing what is best for a specific group of people that have always been looked after under the current set up. Look its a catch 22 and you are right why the fuck don't the RA walk away and start there own domestic comp.
But sadly that requires a whole level of letting go of self interest, and as has been pointed out, whats the one thing you can bet on.

Who is the specific group of people they are looking after hoggy?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

And that is rugby Australia's main problem in a nutshell!!
I would think it a great idea to rebuild the whole thing back up from the bottom, the problem is finances, and I pretty sure RA know they can't do it. I refuse to believe RA has signed up to a comp that is so bad for Rugby in the country, because if it has they are incompetent! Surely you can see that, RA have a pretty good idea of where the game has to go and how to do it, well I would hope!

I am hoping they have signed up to a bridging solution and pushing nzru for further changes to make the Pacific comp more viable whilst also looking at other options / models eg nrc Mark 3 etc. I suspect Pacific rugby comp is not the ideal but without Pe deal, covid etc have had to heavily compromise to meet nzru demands. At least I hope this is a bridging solution but RA have got it wrong in the past so guess we have to wait and see in absence of knowing what RAs future plans - other options considering.

 

[Dan54]

You may say that it was professionalism that killed all this, and in a sense you’d be right, but it’s not hard to be creative and come up with an adaptation of our previous amateur model that fits into the pro mould, complete with tribalism.

Yep and the loss of tribalism etc is similar in NZ too and for same reasons, game went professional, players went to where most money is (and is reflected in Colleges etc with rugby scholarships etc) but that is a problem that is not going to be fixed by shrinking within ourselves, and not playing Aussie super team (which a good number in NZ would be happy with too) .
My argument here is the lets blame NZR, it used be gametime in SA too, but I am sure RA has looked at all options (as would NZR I would hope) and worked out the best way forward is to join NZ in a super comp or whatever. I have seen nowhere that has made me think that RA hasn't had an equal say in how comp is run, they may want some things different, as probably does NZR, but both sides must be happy to sign up for the comp.
I have not read or heard anyone from RA or NZR say they are unhappy with how the comp will be run.
So I will repeat what I said at start I will look forward to comp , be positive and assume it will go ok and enjoy it.
I got to remind myself that a lot of posters here will only look at negatives and blame everyone else for problems of game in Aus whether it NZR ot NRL etc (or even hoggy's idea that RA board is working for specific group), while I believe that one from any rugby board is not doing what they see as best for game!!! (and I include I hoping RA will have NRC pt 3 as RN says)

 

[hoggy]

Who is the specific group of people they are looking after hoggy?

It is the whole set up of Australian rugby, people getting world class wages for a sport struggling domestically for relevance.

Look at the cost of the Rebels each year, 5 Super Rugby sides, the Wallabies, what about Scott Wisemantel (director of coaching) $3/4 million a year.

Yet to the average supporter, rugby in this country is a Sausage sizzle away from being broke. What did the RA sign upto with Super Pacific, the future of the game here, or lets make sure we all get paid.

 

[Derpus]

Pretty sure we are just being trolled.

Be interesting to see how smug kiwis are feeling when Aus rugby is gone and their players are all being sucked down the player drain with only the NPC or Japan (lol - height of competitiveness that) to play in.

 

[Dan54]

You can criticise Hamish Mcelann, but what was put to him 12 months ago by that fluffybunny of a NZRU CEO was scrapping 2 Australians teams and the ultimate collapse of professional rugby in Australia. The man has done more with less then any other sporting administrator in Australia during the pandemic as far as I’m concerned. Doesn’t mean it’s perfect though.

Adam meet hoggy,

It is the whole set up of Australian rugby, people getting world class wages for a sport struggling domestically for relevance.

Look at the cost of the Rebels each year, 5 Super Rugby sides, the Wallabies, what about Scott Wisemantel (director of coaching) $3/4 million a year.

Yet to the average supporter, rugby in this country is a Sausage sizzle away from being broke. What did the RA sign upto with Super Pacific, the future of the game here, or lets make sure we all get paid.

Seems he thinks Hamish and crew are mot flash

 

[kiap]

No Hanan and Seddon etc were inter provincial comps, by geez you don't provinces in NZ if you think they the same as club comp. they were rep teams exactly as Wellington, Manawatu, etc etc are now. But basically that's what NZ provincial rugby is a series of regions, we don't have states so we have regions we call provinces.

A 'province' is just a regional area "regarded as lacking in sophistication or culture", hence the term 'provincial'. But, yes, I take your point that those were regional rep teams (and never said otherwise).

However, regional rep teams also exist OUTSIDE your island …

Heard of the Caldwell Cup? Been run and won by country district rep teams (e.g. Newcastle, even ACT in a previous era …) for more than a lifetime. Queensland also has country rep teams. Early days, NQ could beat the Brisbane rep side (also known as Queensland).

By the by, the Shute Shield tends to be thought of as a club comp now - but back in the day it was based on 'districts'. I don't buy into that too much, though … it's still a (big) city comp that, on occasion, stretches a bit further.

The point is that none of these are a proper full 'domestic comp'. Like I said, they're regional (or city) comps … and so are your quarter-south-island provincial trophies.

 

[Dan54]

Pretty sure we are just being trolled.

Be interesting to see how smug kiwis are feeling when Aus rugby is gone and their players are all being sucked down the player drain with only the NPC or Japan (lol - height of competitiveness that) to play in.

Well if you think that's what RA is doing, signing up for the death of Aus rugby, and every state team coach etc, and administrator I have heard have basically said that's what they want, I not sure where it will all end .
And mate I said before I personally would be happy with NPC and no super, but understand why it's not so.

 

[Dan54]

A 'province' is just a regional area "regarded as lacking in sophistication or culture", hence the term 'provincial'.

But, yes, I take your point that those were regional rep teams (and never said otherwise).

However, regional rep teams also exist outside your island .

Heard of the Caldwell Cup? It's been run and won by country district representative teams (e.g. ACT, Newcastle …) for more than a lifetime. Qld also has country district rep teams. In the early days NQ beat the Brisbane rep side (also known as Queensland).

By the by, the Shute Shield tends to be thought of as a club comp now - but back in the day it was based on 'districts'. I don't buy into it too much, though . it's still a (big) city comp that, on occasion, stretches a bit further.

The point is that none of these are a proper full 'domestic comp'. Like I said, they're regional (or city) comps . and so are your quarter-south-island provincial trophies.

Yep, so RA has had a longtime domestic comp, so thats good, just keep em going. I genuinely didn't know they had them, and obviously not many others did either. But even going to a formalised 3 div comp in 76, NZ obviously had a strong one built on long time provincial rivallries that carried on and was base to going on to next step of super rugby.

Just out of interest Ranfurly shield was part of a domestic comp, it was a challenge comp, not a league style comp, still a comp.


The Ranfurly Shield, colloquially known as the Log o' Wood, is a trophy in New Zealand's domestic rugby union competition. First played for in 1904, the Shield is based on a challenge system (like boxing titles), rather than a league or knockout competition as with most football trophies.

 

[Adam84]

Adam meet hoggy,


Seems he thinks Hamish and crew are mot flash

that’s ok I think the NZRU CEO is a c@nt, and you think he is faultless…

 

[kiap]

Yep, so RA has had a longtime domestic comp, so thats good, just keep em going. I genuinely didn't know they had them, and obviously not many others did either. But even going to a formalised 3 div comp in 76, NZ obviously had a strong one built on long time provincial rivallries that carried on and was base to going on to next step of super rugby.

Oz rugby has, for the last 50+ years, had several starts/restarts of a domestic comp. As Hoggy noted, distances involved are a hurdle (although not insurmountable … the country even has a national Ice Hockey League, FFS).

Rugby here needs to build a local platform. When that tier is missing, the levels above (Super and Test) move towards being "all or nothing" … dollarwise and existentially for the sport.

In the last 20 years, it's been coming up empty more often than not.

 

[Adam84]

You keep coming up with NZ scrapped 2 Aus teams, and somehow caused the collapse of pro rugby in Aus . How they proposed a comp with from 8-10 teams and hopefully a PI team, what is very conveniently is forgotten (or to be fair you may not of known) when the structure of proposed comp was suggested , Austraia only had 4 super teams as RA had dropped one a few years before. I not criticising anyone, just asking if he has signed for this so called end of the world super comp when a domestic comp was the answer to all yourprob , is he competent?
I saying he (or RA) signed up for what is best for Rugby in Aus ----a super comp. Look all I saying it can't be as bad as some of you making out or NO competent administration would sign up for it. You can't have it both ways, RA with Hamish at the helm is either doing what is best for Aus rugby or they are incompetent!! Personally I think they doing what is best!

You’re so quick to be on the defensive you’re not even reading what has been said.

 

[Dan54]

that’s ok I think the NZRU CEO is a c@nt, and you think he is faultless…

Actually no I don't , I never met a faultless CEO of anything, but if you like to imagine things , not for me to tell you different. I was just saying it wasn't me getting at Hamish I was defending him signing up for what he thought was best for Aus rugby