Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rebel man]

You said a SRau comp will never succeed in the long term. Your reason why is a reason against a starting point. Not the long term.

Who knows, 2 wins in 4 rounds may well be marketable? I don't know how, but whatever. Personally it tastes like, smells like, sounds like, utter disaster.

We can never grow the game with a 5 team comp the provincial model doesn’t allow for us to have BBL style franchises. Super Rugby AU is a stop gap and no more.

 

[Rebel man]

Love it. Add sporadic games against kiwi/Japanese teams during the season in another comp and I’ll buy my season ticket for the next couple of years in advance. Domestic flavor - tick, international flavor - tick, multiple competitions to keep engagement - tick. Just add an NRC after the season and you have the right result

Just go with a 12 team comp 22 games and play everyone twice. Winning is not meant to be easy, hiding away because we can’t win is not the mindset we need to have if we are ever going to improve. It’s like in the AFL when fans complain about drawing the top sides twice you should want to play them twice

 

[Rebels3]

Just go with a 12 team comp 22 games and play everyone twice. Winning is not meant to be easy, hiding away because we can’t win is not the mindset we need to have if we are ever going to improve. It’s like in the AFL when fans complain about drawing the top sides twice you should want to play them twice

This is the thing, there is no 22 round comp with the kiwi’s involved. They have no interest in beyond 16 weeks. Also AFL has an Aussie winner each week for the media to praise and a terrible team to shit on. Could you imagine the AFL with no Victorian team beating an interstate rival in 40 matches, or no team making the finals with only 2 Victorian teams winning in almost 20 years. It would be anarchy in the media.

So because there is no 22 games and most likely 16 (I can tell you now it will be play own country twice and other country once). You will play them exactly the same amount of times in a full TT then they would be in separate comps. It’s not that hard to understand

As a reference this would be round 17 in a 22 week season. Almost impossible to fit in before test season 22 weeks + finals

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Because you're not forced to give up playing for NZ by leaving one of the 5 franchises.

Playing Super Rugby in Australia still leaves the AB dream alive but could turn into a Test opportunity even if NZ doesn't want you.

And you don't have to leave your friends and family halfway around the world - particularly in these times.

You sound so logical to me

 

[Rebel man]

This is the thing, there is no 22 round comp with the kiwi’s involved. They have no interest in beyond 16 weeks. Also AFL has an Aussie winner each week for the media to praise and a terrible team to shit on. Could you imagine the AFL with no Victorian team beating an interstate rival in 40 matches, or no team making the finals with only 2 Victorian teams winning in almost 20 years. It would be anarchy in the media.

So because there is no 22 games and most likely 16 (I can tell you now it will be play own country twice and other country once). You will play them exactly the same amount of times in a full TT then they would be in separate comps. It’s not that hard to understand

Then we are just wasting everyone’s time. It can’t be that hard to work out a decent comp as this is garbage. One season one crown one champion that’s it. Like from 2002-06 when no Vic side won it? They shat on about how it would be the death of footy and they were wrong

 

[Adam84]

Evidentially a fair chunk of people disagree with that sentiment

 

[Dan54]

You said a SRau comp will never succeed in the long term. Your reason why is a reason against a starting point. Not the long term.

Who knows, 2 wins in 4 rounds may well be marketable? I don't know how, but whatever. Personally it tastes like, smells like, sounds like, utter disaster.

So according to your reasoning even super au would need Tahs to drop out as they had no wins in 8 weeks?
Well it couldn't be marketable in Sydney the biggest market in Aus!

 

[Dan54]

Love it. Add sporadic games against kiwi/Japanese teams during the season in another comp and I’ll buy my season ticket for the next couple of years in advance. Domestic flavor - tick, international flavor - tick, multiple competitions to keep engagement - tick. Just add an NRC after the season and you have the right result

Which is saying that super Au doesn't work, you saying add in other games with kiwi/japanese teams already.

Rebel man is right neither comp Super Ao or Au is substainable over much more than a year or 2 more. I say that to kiwis I talk to who say how much better Super Ao is without the Aus teams too. Yep , but a 9 game comp not going to cut it in long run.
Aus rugby is using brains supposedly and getting NRC style thing back, and those that say Aus teams can't be competitive have a look what Reds have done by building on young fellas from a 2nd tier comp!

I was looking at a very early page of this thread and Ullrich made a pretty good point (similar to what Rebel man is saying I think and me) and I quote:

Seems like you guys are looking for any solution as long as it does not include playing better rugby.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Which is saying that super Au doesn't work, you saying add in other games with kiwi/japanese teams already.

Rebel man is right neither comp Super Ao or Au is substainable over much more than a year or 2 more. I say that to kiwis I talk to who say how much better Super Ao is without the Aus teams too. Yep , but a 9 game comp not going to cut it in long run.
Aus rugby is using brains supposedly and getting NRC style thing back, and those that say Aus teams can't be competitive have a look what Reds have done by building on young fellas from a 2nd tier comp!

I was looking at a very early page of this thread and Ullrich made a pretty good point (similar to what Rebel man is saying I think and me) and I quote:

Seems like you guys are looking for any solution as long as it does not include playing better rugby.

Dan I work on the principle don’t throw out what is working until it ain’t working. And given history of last decade of super rugby decline and failure to grow rugby interest, it would be crazy to drop it completely but as it would to also just give up on TT.

Do both - heck even that means reduce super rugby au. And to suggest would not be sustainable is hard to be convinced since national domestic competitions of rival footy codes are successful and expanding At rugby’s expense.

I would be very surprised if super rugby Au dropped next year as given TT from a contest and fan interest hardly a clear
Success you really think they are going to throw out a successful rugby product like super rugby au given a past failed super rugby product and an already struggling TT comp?

No do both and review each year on year - whilst successful keep super rugby au and if in couple of years interest wains and IF Interest in TT grown then can transition to Full TT but even that may end up with possible conference system.

You guys are nuts to suggest dumping super rugby Au now while it is successful because in few years Interest could fade and become unsuccessful. Would not the more prudent commercial decision be to dump it or revise it when evidence proves no longer commericial?

 

[Rebels3]

Which is saying that super Au doesn't work, you saying add in other games with kiwi/japanese teams already.

Rebel man is right neither comp Super Ao or Au is substainable over much more than a year or 2 more. I say that to kiwis I talk to who say how much better Super Ao is without the Aus teams too. Yep , but a 9 game comp not going to cut it in long run.
Aus rugby is using brains supposedly and getting NRC style thing back, and those that say Aus teams can't be competitive have a look what Reds have done by building on young fellas from a 2nd tier comp!

I was looking at a very early page of this thread and Ullrich made a pretty good point (similar to what Rebel man is saying I think and me) and I quote:

Seems like you guys are looking for any solution as long as it does not include playing better rugby.

Where am I saying it doesn’t work? My brain is capable of comprehending two competitions at the same time.

Let me break it down as there seems to be a clear inability of a few people to understand simple concepts.

A full TransTasman fixture list for the Reds will most likely look like this

Example 1

Week 1 Vs Tahs (h)
Week 2 Vs Hurricanes (a)
Week 3 Vs Force (h)
Week 4 Vs Drua (a)
Week 5 Vs Crusaders (h)
Week 6 Vs Rebels (a)
Week 7 Vs Brumbies (a)
Week 8 Vs Highlanders (h)
Week 9 Vs Blues (a)
Week 10 Vs Tahs (a)
Week 11 Vs Rebels (h)
Week 12 Vs Pacifica (a)
Week 13 Vs Brumbies (h)
Week 14 Vs Chiefs (h)
Week 15Vs Force (a)
Week 16 Vs Drua (h)

Semi - tba
Final - tba

Alright that’s the basic part of a TT comp. it’s almost impossible to fit a full 22 week Home and Away as this week would be week 17 of 22 and it’s almost July.

Now a SRAU comp would look like this for fixtures

Example 2

Tahs (h)
Brums (a)
Force (h)
Drua (a)
Rebels (h)
Tahs (a)
Brums (h)
Force (a)
Drua (h)
Rebels (a)

Then if you play a TT comp or Asian Pacific you could play

Hurricanes (a)
Crusaders (h)
Highlanders (h)
Blues (a)
Pacifica (a)
Chiefs (h)

All during the season, maybe you might play two less kiwi teams because there is some Japanese element against their top team.

Now very slowly look at the fixtures in both examples and notice the similarly of opposition??

Amazingly you’d end up playing the same opposition the same amount of times. Wow

Now let’s say the Reds played the hurricanes in week 2 and the Crusaders in week 5 to split up the repetition (brain explosions/double wow).

As much as people can’t seem to understand it. Kids love hero. Hero’s on the sporting field are winning hero’s. Currently Aus rugby is perceived by the casual fan as a bunch of losers with the normal thought been they are inferior athletes to the afl and NRL guys, who if they had 3 weeks of training would beat the wallabies. That’s the common mans thought process because they never win anything. Trust me on this, I’m a born and bred QLDer that went to one of the best league schools in the country I have also lived a decade in Victoria so ino the psyche of the population better than most. Some of my league mates actually turned up to the last two Reds v Brums fixtures and actually discussed Rugby on our WhatsApp group.

 

[hoggy]

Competitions need a meaning, Broadcasters need viewers, stadiums need fans, Clubs need supporters, Games need a meaning, Fxtures need Tribalism.

It is the very fact that this was not prioritized over the last 20 years that has got us to where we are, if Rugby Union does not learn that lesson, then it deserves the end result.

 

[Dan54]

Competitions need a meaning, Broadcasters need viewers, stadiums need fans, Clubs need supporters, Games need a meaning, Fxtures need Tribalism.

It is the very fact that this was not prioritized over the last 20 years that has got us to where we are, if Rugby Union does not learn that lesson, then it deserves the end result.

\

You obviously never watched Super rugby in the first 10 years or so, when it was watched by bloody good crowds etc almost all the time. I would say the games I went to in Brisbane had a bigger average crowd than they did this year.
But you are right, it then went downhill when a couple of partners decided they needed extra teams (and not arguing that) but unfortunately they forgot to strengthen their players base or franchises (probably because of money in one case). It just seemed easier to blame everyone else for support dropping off!

To add I was awful surprised to see average crowds at Super Au games this year were actually lower than in 2017-19. Boy I thought they would of been better!

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Usually I wouldn't copy and paste an article but f*ck News and what they have done.

Rugby Australia boss Andy Marinos believes the country is falling behind its traditional rivals New Zealand and South Africa because of the absence of a strong second-tier competition and is hoping to get one up and running for 2022.
“New Zealand has done it well with the ITM Cup and South Africa’s done it really well with the Currie Cup and there’s no surprise that there’s always a factory of players coming through the system,” Marinos said.
The National Rugby Championship was cut, in large part, because of cost-cutting measures following the COVID pandemic. But its demise denied emerging players – and coaches – an opportunity to bridge the gap between club and Super Rugby.
The Waratahs were always likely to be lambs to the slaughter in 2021 because, having lost 800 caps of Test experience over the past two years, they desperately need their next generation to spend more time on the field, learning their craft and building combinations.
While the Reds and Brumbies are benefiting from prioritising the NRC, they are anxious about the future now that it is gone.
It’s why Reds coach Brad Thorn put the governing body on notice last week by issuing a passionate plea to bring the NRC back.
“We had (Queensland) Country and (Brisbane) City and if you look at all our players who have come through that middle ground between club and Super; so not having that (NRC), to me, it’s a tough one,” he said. “Something has to be done.
“You’ve got the Currie Cup (South Africa), you’ve got the Bunnings Cup (New Zealand), you’ve got the Championship in England, everyone’s got (a second tier). Your Test players go away (after Super Rugby) and that’s awesome, but you’ve got to have that middle ground for guys to cut their teeth, even coaches as well.”
Marinos, who has been in the role since February, agrees and says getting a second-tier competition under way is paramount for Rugby Australia’s strategy of building the game up.
“He’s (Thorn) not wrong, he’s not wrong,” Marinos told foxsports.com.au. “If you look at any great structure in the world, there are those competitions and it’s a part of what I’ve been saying since I’ve come in. We’ve got to have a bottom-up approach, not a top-down approach to the game in this country if we’re going to be sustainable.
“As we start embarking on a new strategic plan and a new strategic direction, the competition structure of having a second-tier competition – for want of a better word – that underpins what’s happening at Super Rugby level is going to become even more important because we have a group of players who play Super Rugby and can drop back into the Shute Shield and Hospital Cup but then after those competitions finish there’s very little rugby for them.
There are a multitude of reasons why the NRC failed to ever get serious buy-in from all five Super Rugby clubs and the populace at large.
But in essence, it struggled because as the fed-up public abandoned the professional arm of the game, they instead cast their interests towards club rugby, which has since had a major resurgence.
Additionally, unlike the ITM Cup and Currie Cup, the NRC lacked history and the public struggled to feel a connection to the made-up teams to go along with meaningless Super Rugby names across multiple continents.
Marinos said it was too early to determine what structure the competition would take.
“At this point in time, we’re busy working on what that structure is going to look like,” he said.
“To start pre-empting what it’s going to look like is a little bit premature. But what it will be is a holistic program that will underpin the high-performance and provide opportunity for the next generation of players to come through and hopefully through that earn selection for the Wallabies.
Marinos added he hoped a competition will be up and running by 2022 but admitted it could take until 2023.
“I’d like to look at getting a second-tier structure underway in 2022 at least, so we can start building momentum.
“It’s also going to tie back to where we position ourselves from a World Cup perspective and the beginning of that sustainability plan and legacy plan around the World Cup. If we can have that by the time we have the World Cup in 2027 and we have a flourishing first, second and third-tier domestic rugby competition structure, I think that would be a really big statement for the game.”

The key message or affirmation I got from Marinos was we need a bottom up and not a top down approach to be sustainable. If they have that realisation we may have hope.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Here is what I reckon could work (ok parties won’t agree and outcomes can be disputed)

We have assumptions of:
A) trans Tasman with open borders policy but limit teams to say set number of imports (with higher limits short term for newer and less established teams which could include MP (Moana Pasifika), drua, force and rebels) to avoid concerns of kiwi talent drain
B) we have PE investment in oz teams which allows investment in long term initiatives as well as short term (eg higher salary caps to better establish teams)
C) we end up hopefully with more even teams and more kiwis playing in TT then going off sho
D) we actually get more people interested in watching all blacks as eventually may have players playing for another non kiwi country franchise team which generates interest in following those players
E) more equal teams and contests helps grow interest in TT and win win for all
F) kiwis have even more pathways and stronger all blacks
G) ok all blacks get stronger but other countries in Asia pacific get stronger as part of successful competition and change RC to teams from pacific islands, oz and Japan so at least battle for second etc interesting

Win win for all

Ok now I hear it will never happen, central contracting blah blah. But buggered if I can see another answer that sees someone proprotionally not have their national rugby interests really shafted.

 

[Adam84]

Australia has greater competition for quality players, we’re haemorrhaging players to NRL/AFL and don’t have the monopoly on players markets like kiwi teams do. Compound that with a lesser development pathway and you have the situation we’re in. That’s without even considering the international market stealing the top layer of players.

Unless more money comes in so that Australia rugby can be competitive in the domestic player market and improve the development pathways, we won’t ever be competitive with kiwi Super Rugby teams.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Australia has greater competition for quality players, we’re haemorrhaging players to NRL/AFL and don’t have the monopoly on players markets like kiwi teams do. Compound that with a lesser development pathway and you have the situation we’re in. That’s without even considering the international market stealing the top layer of players.

Unless more money comes in so that Australia rugby can be competitive in the domestic player market and improve the development pathways, we won’t ever be competitive with kiwi Super Rugby teams.

That was why RA (and nzru) were keen on the world league concept as would have brought in massive dollars to rugby to compete for players with nrl etc...pity northern hemisphere sides scuppered it..

 

[hoggy]

Australia has greater competition for quality players, we’re haemorrhaging players to NRL/AFL and don’t have the monopoly on players markets like kiwi teams do. Compound that with a lesser development pathway and you have the situation we’re in. That’s without even considering the international market stealing the top layer of players.

Unless more money comes in so that Australia rugby can be competitive in the domestic player market and improve the development pathways, we won’t ever be competitive with kiwi Super Rugby teams.

I agree with your assessment, but does it not just highlight the stupidity of aligning yourself to a set up you can never win. We want to attract more money from an ever shrinking base, whatever calculator you use it doesn't add up.

 

[Dctarget]

Forgive me if this is based on too big an assumption. But below is a graph of rugby nations predicted population growth. Even if only 1% of Australia's population is rugby fans compared to NZ's 30% or whatever it is, we just have to keep the same proportion of fans as our country's population increases. The other countries actually have to increase the size of their pie, whereas our population growth will do it for us. Admittedly this is helping the Wallabies win the 2063 RWC, not the 2023 RWC. In theory, our rugby numbers will have increased by 50% naturally in 30 years.

Not included is SA's population, because they will blow us all out of the water.

 

[Adam84]

If you remove the gimmick figures and creative accounting from sporting participation figures, all the major contact sports in Australia are declining or plateauing, even with domestic population growth.

 

[Dctarget]

If you remove the gimmick figures and creative accounting from sporting participation figures, all the major contact sports in Australia are declining or plateauing, even with domestic population growth.

Reeeally. Is that matched across the world? Is it an online 21st century thing where all our little fat kids are getting into e-sports or Australia just cooked?