Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rugbynutter39]

I have come to the conclusion that domestic followed by TT ( we just make it work) is best way forward at this point and that we make sure the pathways and grass roots programs out in place for long term but short term we follow the Force successful strategy of using imports to improve our competitiveness. Rebels in particular should use this strategy more. Clearly reds and brumbies don’t need to do this and tahs maybe just select better imports (as recent SA and kiwi ones have generally been just plain failures).

 

[Rugbynutter39]

This may have been suggested already - but I have a simple mind and have gotten lost. Can we effectively keep this year model but slightly tweaked

Week 1 - 5 Rd 1 SRAU SRAO
Week 6-10 Rd 2 SRAU SRAO Rd1 SRTT (Domestic Derbies)
Week 11-12 Finals SRAU SRAO
Week 13 General Bye
Week 14-18 Rd2 SRTT (Trans Tasman Games)
Week 19-20 Finals SRTT

(adding two more teams takes it to 23 weeks less if Dom is straight final and if you dont have the general bye)

Basically we take the second round of the domestic comp and use them as part of the ladder for SRTT. It basically gives you the single round robin TT with the first round forming the end of the Domestic Comp. It gives the best of both worlds, TV some opportunities to build up to finals. You could make a great story going into the TT around how many games different teams would need to win to make the finals. We would just need to make sure we have one set or rules going into the comp.

By my calculation the table going into what I propose be R2 SRTT would have been

Chiefs 16
Reds 15
Brumbies 14
Force 12
Crusaders 10
Highlanders 10
Rebels 6
Hurricanes 6
Blues 6
Waratahs 2

and then after last week we would be at

Chiefs 20
Reds 15
Brumbies 15
Highlanders 15
Crusaders 14
Force 13
Hurricanes 11
Blues 11
Rebels 6
Waratahs 2

Which is a much nicer looking table and after the first round of what is being pushed as TT only 2 teams are out of contention after week 1

I like it. Could we then have finals after second round as per what we currently have so have oz domestic champ (the finals games obviously don’t count towards TT). Ie second round of local derbies counts towards both our domestic and TT competition. Is that what you are suggesting? Your idea certainly has merit.

 

[Rebels3]

It’s Saturday morning and we need to push this to 2000 pages, so I’ll add to that. Here is my format I have thought of with extra detail

SRAU = Super Rugby Australia (5 existing teams)
TransTasman = 5 x Aussie, 5 x NZ, 1 x Pacifica, 1 x Fiji
Australasian Championship = 5 x Aus, 4 x Jap, 1 x Hong Kong (top Aussie vs top Asian in final)
Magic Round = all play at one venue
ANZAC test = Bledisloe
Local Rep team = local domestic competition all stars

*Australasian championship would be played when wallabies away, so kinda our development comp
*Test players will miss one round of TT for player welfare
*3 trophies on offer throughout the year which can help with engagement
*would also like to see Fiji and Pacifica added to NPC (even if they can’t be promoted from 2nd div)
*Total is 20 games (+ finals) / 9 home + 9 away + 2 neutral

Week 1 - SRAU
Week 2 - SRAU
Week 3 - SRAU
Week 4 - SRAU
Week 5 - SRAU Final
Week 6 -
Week 7 - TransTasman
Week 8 - TransTasman
Week 9 - TransTasman
Week 10 - TransTasman
Week 11 - ANZAC test
Week 12 - TransTasman (Test players rested)
Week 13 - TransTasman
Week 14 - TransTasman
Week 15 - TransTasman (Magic Round)
Week 16 - TransTasman
Week 17 - TransTasman
Week 18 - TransTasman
Week 19 - TransTasman Semi
Week 20 - TransTasman Final
Week 21 -
Week 22 - Internationals
........
Week 25 - vs local rep team
Week 26 - Australasian Championship
Week 27 - Australasian Championship
Week 28 - Australasian Championship
Week 29 - Australasian Championship
Week 30 - Australasian Championship
Week 31 - Australasian Final


Reds example

Week 1 - Waratahs (H)
Week 2 - Rebels (A)
Week 3 - Force (A)
Week 4 - Brumbies (H)
Week 5 - SRAU Final
Week 6 -
Week 7 - Hurricanes (A)
Week 8 - Crusaders (A)
Week 9 - Rebels (H)
Week 10 - Drua (H)
Week 11 -
Week 12 - Blues (H) (No Wallabies)
Week 13 - Pacifica (A)
Week 14 - Force (H)
Week 15 - Highlanders (Magic Round)
Week 16 - Chiefs (H)
Week 17 - Brumbies (A)
Week 18 - Waratahs (A)
Week 19 - TransTasman Semi
Week 20 - TransTasman Final
Week 21 -
Week 22 -
Week 23 -
Week 24 -
Week 25 - QLD Prem All Stars (Ballymore)
Week 26 - Suntory (A)
Week 27 - Panasonic (A)
Week 28 - Toyota (Magic Round - Japan)
Week 29 - Hong Kong (H)
Week 30 - Kubota (H)
Week 31 - Australasian Champ Final

 

[D-Box]

I like it. Could we then have finals after second round as per what we currently have so have oz domestic champ (the finals games obviously don’t count towards TT). Ie second round of local derbies counts towards both our domestic and TT competition. Is that what you are suggesting? Your idea certainly has merit.

Yep that is week 11/12 - where we had them this year

 

[dru]

I'd squeeze in an early round of NZ v Aus teams for the Anzac Day weekend.

 

[Joe King]

Am I right in thinking there are only 18 weeks to work with, in which to fit whatever Super Rugby competition? Isn't this why they didn't allow for a break between Super Rugby AU and Super Rugby TT this year? They had to squeeze it in. Can anyone confirm? I'm assuming the earliest start we want is the 2nd last weekend in Feburary each year.

I think the old June Test window use to start on the 2nd weekend in June each year, whereas the new July test window will always start on the first weekend in July. Is that right? Can anyone confirm?

 

[hifflepiff]

Smug News Corp journos are going to be having a field day over the next few weeks.

 

[Quick Hands]

This. We always talk about how crap the Aussies were against the Kiwis but for most of Super Rugby was any one country (not team) consistently good?

Most definitely yes.

Finals appearances i.e. the final

Crusaders (NZ) 14 appearances - 10 wins and 4 losses
Blues (NZ) 4 appearances - 3 wins and 1 loss
Chiefs (NZ) 3 appearances - 2 wins and 1 loss
Hurricanes (NZ) 3 appearances - 1 win and 2 losses

Total NZ final appearances 24 - for 16 wins

Brumbies (AU) 6 appearances - 2 wins and 4 losses
Waratahs (AU) 3 appearances - 1 win and 2 losses
Reds (AU) 1 appearance - 1 win and 0 losses

Total AU final appearances 10 - for 4 wins

Sharks (SA) 4 appearances - 0 wins and 4 losses
Bulls (SA) 3 appearances - 3 wins and 0 losses
Lions (SA) 3 appearances - 0 wins and 3 losses
Stormers (SA) 1 appearance - 0 wins and 1 loss

Total SA final appearances 11 - for 3 wins

Jaguares (ARG) 1 appearance for 0 wins and 1 loss

2 x NZ teams played each other in the final on 5 occasions - 98, 99, 03, 06 and 15

2 x SA teams played each other in the final on 2 occasions - 07 and 10

2 x AU teams never played each other in the final

At least 1 NZ team featured in the final in 23 years out of 25

 

[Quick Hands]

Smug News Corp journos are going to be having a field day over the next few weeks.

As will those who were ridiculed for suggesting that SRA was a far superior competition to SRAu.

 

[wamberal]

Have not thought this through (and probably never will): but how about this.

Play the two separate comps as at present. Then drop out the two lowest AU franchises, and allow the three remaining franchises to be strengthened with short term player loans from the bottom franchises.

Then play a combined NZ/AU comp which would also include two invited franchises, Pasifika and Japan.

 

[Dan54]

I honestly believe that if you want these results to remain, keep doing what we doing. Aus teams were finally looking good beginning to look pretty good at start of last year's comp, before covid, and the last couple of weeks we seeing the results of them playing only each other for 2 seasons. In a full comp, playing a misture of teams no way will results be so skewed, you will have NZ teams taking each other out to start with.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

As will those who were ridiculed for suggesting that SRA was a far superior competition to SRAu.

I read on GAGR (a rugby website) that the 0 and 10 is just cos the NZ refs are used to reffing NZ players and havent yet adapted to the Australian players knock-ons, scrum infringements, incorrect ruck entries, missed tackles, offside infringements and wonky lineouts. Once the NZ refs get up to speed with the Aussie way then I'm sure everything will be just fine.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I honestly believe that if you want these results to remain, keep doing what we doing. Aus teams were finally looking good beginning to look pretty good at start of last year's comp, before covid, and the last couple of weeks we seeing the results of them playing only each other for 2 seasons. In a full comp, playing a misture of teams no way will results be so skewed, you will have NZ teams taking each other out to start with.

As will those who were ridiculed for suggesting that SRA was a far superior competition to SRAu.

There were those who saying all is good TT wise as gap will not be large..,,,gap looks to be widening after Round 2. Seems some of us were just realists as really what had changed other then adding another oz side to play nz teams. I am not against TT as agree we need to test ourselves to get better...but current format this year with D-Box's suggestion round 2 of domestics count towards TT (have Fiji and MP (Moana Pasifika) each join Oz and NZ conference) respectively is more appealing. As 6 weeks of oz teams being thrashed is enough for me to bear without completely damaging positivity our domestic comp creates. But this is also not just doing this TT 6 week competition and saying all is good accepting oz team thrashings but addressing the gap which is RA continuing to pressure NZRU for changes to TT competition that allow for more even playing field (whatever those options/levers are that can be put on the table) as well as RA doing what they can control to improve our competitiveness short and long term ie imports short term to sure up gaps, investment and development / expansion of grass roots programs (funded by PE investment) etc etc.

The bold bit is because for some reason I keep getting accused of being pure Domestic and saying we should have no TT when I am actually accepting TT (but definitely not TT only and reckon most saying that would be in small minority) but work to get a better TT competition that avoids what seen over first 2 rounds.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I read on GAGR (a rugby website) that the 0 and 10 is just cos the NZ refs are used to reffing NZ players and havent yet adapted to the Australian players knock-ons, scrum infringements, incorrect ruck entries, missed tackles, offside infringements and wonky lineouts. Once the NZ refs get up to speed with the Aussie way then I'm sure everything will be just fine.

I heard it is the reason we are 0 and 10 because their are some many oz fans who are surrender bunnies and this just psyched the oz players to accept they had no chance of winning. Its all those surrender bunnies fault as there is no gap between teams in TT. Either that or yeh it is all those NZ refs fault. Actually Dismal its your bloody fault as oz players are logging in here to see what latest crazy graphic you will post on here rather than prepping for the game.

 

[Dan54]

There were those who saying all is good TT wise as gap will not be large..,,,gap looks to be widening after Round 2. I am not against TT as agree we need to test ourselves to get better...but current format this year with D-Box's suggestion round 2 of domestics count towards TT (have Fiji and MP (Moana Pasifika) each join Oz and NZ conference) respectively. As 6 weeks of oz teams being thrashed is enough for me to bear without completely damaging positivity our domestic comp creates. But this is also not just doing this competition and saying all is good but addressing the gap which is RA continuing to pressure NZRU for changes to competition that allow for more even playing field as well as RA doing what they can control to improve our competitiveness short and long term ie imports short term to sure up gaps, investment and development / expansion of grass roots programs (funded by PE investment) etc etc.

The bold bit is because for some reason I keep getting accused of being pure Domestic and saying we should have no TT when I am actually accepting TT (but definitely not TT only and reckon most saying that would be in small minority) but work to get a better TT competition that avoids what seen over first 2 rounds.

I looked at TT's suggestion too, but only problem is we will keep getting same thing, Aus and NZ teams plaing only each other for 2 rounds and then when the comp comes together will get same skewed results, if you end up with just NZ/Aus games left tp play. I actually think even a 1 round sep draw, then a full ixed comp with games in that comp still counting to Aus comp would work better as there a better misture for teams from both countires, I know finals etc have to be sorted, but you could do that.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I looked at TT's suggestion too, but only problem is we will keep getting same thing, Aus and NZ teams plaing only each other for 2 rounds and then when the comp comes together will get same skewed results, if you end up with just NZ/Aus games left tp play. I actually think even a 1 round sep draw, then a full ixed comp with games in that comp still counting to Aus comp would work better as there a better misture for teams from both countires, I know finals etc have to be sorted, but you could do that.

I don't think the problem is teams not playing each other as I get the picture you think we just get better by playing NZ teams where years of super rugby suggests otherwise. If we are going to be involved in TT competing against NZ teams we need to level the playing field. How you do the latter is increasing/decreasing teams or improving teams competitiveness (won't go through all those option/levers as 3 billion pages covering all this).

 

[hoggy]

The problem is with equal teams Aus is simply not competitive against NZ, we simply don't have enough depth, so a TT just continues with the cycle of not being competitive which destroys any chance of increasing popularity. The counter argument from NZ is to go back to 3 teams to be competitive which will intern improve results and increase popularity of the code.

It is a prick of a situation for the rugby here, throw in competition from other popular sporting codes and rugby union is between a rock and a hard place.

But IMO the only real option for the game to grow here is to focus on greater domestic development, I just do not see any real improvement until the game develops greater bonds with mainstream Australia, you will never achieve that with weekly bashings from our TT cousins.

 

[kiap]

allow the three remaining franchises to be strengthened with short term player loans from the bottom franchises.

That's like going to the crease with a bat that hasn't been knocked in.

Short-term loan players that aren't seasoned with the team means you go backwards before improving cohesion. But you're gone after two games when it's a five round contest.

A better idea -- although I don't advocate it -- would be to have one side in there, just like Fiji. Having a Rennie-coached oz ensemble touring their way through Aotearoa could tune up and start to build WB cohesion early, towards the tests.

 

[hoggy]

That's like going to the crease with a bat that hasn't been knocked in.

Short-term loan players that aren't seasoned with the team means you go backwards before improving cohesion. But you're gone after two games when it's a five round contest.

A better idea -- although I don't advocate it -- would be to have one side in there, just like Fiji. Having a Rennie-coached oz ensemble touring their way through Aotearoa could tune up and start to build WB cohesion early, right into the test season.

The other problem you have is you pretty much throw any business model for the two bottom franchises out the window.

 

[kiap]

The other problem you have is you pretty much throw any business model for the two bottom franchises out the window.

Yup. Disenfranchised.