What to look for in a No 10

[Inside Shoulder]

It's probably obvious that I have a bit of a thing about the attributes of a good, international no 10.
I have a strong view that as a rule in this country we look for the wrong things in a no. 10 and that, as a result, we weaken other positions in filling the position with players who have the wrong attributes.
In junior rugby the best player is often put into 10. The reasons usually follow one of 2 paths: the kid is so fast/strong/big that he will make lots of breaks; or, the other kids aren't good enough to get the ball to our best player so we need him where he will always get the ball.
These are legitimate grounds on which to make a kid no. 10.
By the time you get to senior rugby they are no longer a proper basis for picking a 10.
A proper Union 10 has to be a facilitator and the better he is as a facilitator the better the team will go.
A fundamental reason for this is that the 10 will get the ball in heavy traffic from set pieces: he wont have the time or opportunity to use naked athletic gifts like speed or a side step more than a couple of times a game.
You cannot build a reliable attack around such a 5/8.
the 5/8 you need, and the hgiher you go the more you need this type of 5/8, is the bloke who can read the game and make decisions about when to kick, when to pass and to whom, whether to have someone crash it etc.
if your 5/8 can get it to the physically gifted athlete who is wide out, when the opportunities present, then that player will have a bit more time and more space in which to weave his magic. His opposition will have to come that much further to tackle him giving him that much more time to beat his opposite player with skill.
Players like JOC (James O'Connor) should be wide not narrow because with room they can beat anyone.
The proof of my theory lies, I think, in looking at the ABs structure.
They dont pick there most physically gifted player at 5/8 - they generally pick him at fullback. Fullback gives a bloke 2 directions to travel: 5/8 gives only one, realistically and generally. Fullback give a bloke time to wind up, to swerve to use his pace. 5/8 does not.

I think that until we start looking for our 5/8s to be in the Lynagh/Ella mould we will be doomed to problems.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

What to look for in a No10? Good reception and long battery life on their Mobile Phone is a key characteristic for the Darkness #10's.

 

[Swat]

and a fully functioning groin

 

[Inside Shoulder]

What to look for in a No10? Good reception and long battery life on their Mobile Phone is a key characteristic for the Darkness #10's.

geez it took me a while to work it out...not bad

 

[Swat]

I know you started this thread to try and prove why you don't think JOC (James O'Connor) should be given a go at 10 or 12 but honestly, this is what I look for in a 10:

[video=youtube;feJ62DDHmVU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feJ62DDHmVU[/video]

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I know you started this thread to try and prove why you don't think JOC (James O'Connor) should be given a go at 10 or 12 but honestly, this is what I look for in a 10:

[video=youtube;feJ62DDHmVU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feJ62DDHmVU[/video]

Not true - I started it to try and persuade people that we look for the wrong characteristics in 10s and to avoid being accused of hijacking general threads.
I know what he can do.
BUt he wont do it as often or often enough at test level.
The real point is that he would be wasted at 10 and our quest is to find the no 10 that can get the athletic gifts out of players like him: as Lynagh Larkham and Ella did before them. Its kind of odd that because he is so good when he plays wide it is assumed that he'd be even better in narrower. The same view was taken of Campo, in particular by Spiro.
I am passionate about it because i think it is a fundamental error in the way we think about the game.

 

[pete88]

Geez that video gives me manlove for JOC (James O'Connor). I know it's a highlight package, but crikey he's got something special. Does anyone believe his future is as a winger? 10/12 for me. I want to see him competing directly with Quade, I think it would be good for both of them.

Edit: is an interesting point you raise tho IS. I can't see the harm in giving the kid a run in closer though.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Geez that video gives me manlove for JOC (James O'Connor). I know it's a highlight package, but crikey he's got something special. Does anyone believe his future is as a winger? 10/12 for me. I want to see him competing directly with Quade, I think it would be good for both of them.

Edit: is an interesting point you raise tho IS. I can't see the harm in giving the kid a run in closer though.

No harm to him...or the team, in one sense: but the longer we delay recognition that we're looking for someone who plays more like Dan Carter the longer it is until we can start addressing other issues.
I think that JOC (James O'Connor) can play anywhere in the backline and half the positions in the pigs too. But for mine he is an OC, Wing or FB because of his elusiveness. The first half break on that video is Matt Burke like - you dont have to be the 10 to make it

 

[Schadenfreude]

Awesome game against the rebels. Not many can crack their line. Plus a lot of that was at 15.

The 10 who defends at 15 has a busted knee.

 

[pete88]

The thing is I'm not sure we have a Dan Carter type just lying about. I actually think Cooper and O'Connor have the skillset to match him, the issue is with how they are using their talents, for whatever reason. Time will tell I suppose.

And I don't think Barnes is really an answer. Too indecisive, too prone to loopy passing to be the primary playmaker. But I'm not a back, never have been so I might be badly wrong.

 

[crangs81]

He'll do

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The thing is I'm not sure we have a Dan Carter type just lying about. I actually think Cooper and O'Connor have the skillset to match him, the issue is with how they are using their talents, for whatever reason. Time will tell I suppose.

And I don't think Barnes is really an answer. Too indecisive, too prone to loopy passing to be the primary playmaker. But I'm not a back, never have been so I might be badly wrong.

No we dont - but the powers that be aren't looking for that type of player. Carter is a once in a generation player but donald and even cruden are much more in that control/set up outside players mould with the occasional run

 

[rigs23]

This is a bit simplistic and optimistic, but you need a good left and right pass, a good kicking game, composure, stability, and the ability to steer and manipulate the game around. i believe close to every pass they make should be for a particular reason or strategy.

 

[James Buchanan]

I think its more complicated than people are making out. I mean, Quade is like Carlos Spencer. Bloody good 5/8th and an excitement machine, but flaky... which is not desirable in a test 5/8th.

I agree that a good 5/8th should be a distributor, rather than stepper. That being said, a good 5/8th does take on the line; part of what made Larkham so effective was that people weren't ever expecting him to run.

Of all the young 5/8ths we've gotten to see at Super Level, the one that has looked the goods to me was To'omua. But, he's had a bit of a form slump and stagnated, so we may or may not ever get to see how good he can be. Fortunately, this year he won't be behind Giteau.

 

[Swat]

Excellent choice of avatar rigs

 

[Athilnaur]

Think we are selling Quade short here on the basis of a poor cup. Forget for a second his sublime step, or his ability to ghost into line breaks. Forget for a minute his tweeting, silly clashes with Richie, the way he is a fan magnet. Though on that, let's bear in mind he's done himself and us all proud on the way he handles himself with the public.

The guy is second only to SBW in offloads. Was the best line breaker in super rugby. Kicks goals in the high 70s. Has a psychic ability to put people into space. Can pass 15 metres and hit a running Ioane on the chest. Never stops looking for attack opportunities. And best of all, the pure class of the guy, will always pass, chip or kick to ensure a try at the expense of a try for himself.

Not a playmaker? From where I sit the lad is one of the best playmakers I have been privileged to see play.

I have no doubt he could play fb, but he's far more valuable at 10.

Is he a clockwork machine like Dan? No, but then who is. He's his own special brand of magic, and for me thats what the Wallabies are about.

Mark my words, he's passed thru the brimstone in NZ and will be a far more dangerous test player for it thanks to them.

 

[Joe Blow]

I'm not sure about QC (Quade Cooper). Yes, he has all of those attributes Alt. but he still lacks the fundamental skill of being able to defend consistently and effectively.
JOC (James O'Connor) is a 10/12 and needs some time to develop there. His speed is blinding but he also has all the skills required to be a top flight test 10 including a very strong defensive game.
He has the ability to threaten the line himself as well as being able to put other people in holes, in which case he also possesses the speed to put himself in a position to back those players up.
Given time he could be a 'great' 5/8 for Australia in the line of Ella, Larkham and Noddy.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think its more complicated than people are making out. I mean, Quade is like Carlos Spencer. Bloody good 5/8th and an excitement machine, but flaky... which is not desirable in a test 5/8th.

I agree that a good 5/8th should be a distributor, rather than stepper. That being said, a good 5/8th does take on the line; part of what made Larkham so effective was that people weren't ever expecting him to run.

Of all the young 5/8ths we've gotten to see at Super Level, the one that has looked the goods to me was To'omua. But, he's had a bit of a form slump and stagnated, so we may or may not ever get to see how good he can be. Fortunately, this year he won't be behind Giteau.

There's a lot of contradiction in this: Quade is not a good 5/8 because its not about the opportunities he creates for others its about those he takes himself albeit that he sets up (sometimes) his support.

No question a 5/8 takes on the line but thats after he's put the defence into a frame of mind in which they expect the ball to go wide or whatever. You do not want a 5/8 who takes on the line more then 6 times a game, I reckon.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Not a playmaker? From where I sit the lad is one of the best playmakers I have been privileged to see play.

I dont think you should have brought up the chip kicks.
There will not be another DC for 20 years.
Its the hot dogging on the gain line that is QC (Quade Cooper)'s undoing.

 

[James Buchanan]

There's a lot of contradiction in this: Quade is not a good 5/8 because its not about the opportunities he creates for others its about those he takes himself albeit that he sets up (sometimes) his support.

No question a 5/8 takes on the line but thats after he's put the defence into a frame of mind in which they expect the ball to go wide or whatever. You do not want a 5/8 who takes on the line more then 6 times a game, I reckon.

I won't disagree that there are contradictions. I did note that it is a complicated topic. For all that Quade does have magic feet, he also has a sublime long pass. I'm pretty sure that its for his passing that he gravitated towards 5/8th. So, I do not agree with your assertion that he is trying to make the play himself all the time. The problem with Quade for me is that he overplays his hand, so to speak. He is always trying to do something special, be it himself or by some amazing pass. I've never met the guy, so I cannot say for sure, but he strikes me as an instinctive player who makes gut decisions and runs with them. I personally prefer a slightly more intellectual approach to the 5/8th position, I like to think that you have a bit of a thinker there who is treating the game like a game of chess: pushing the play one way, then the other, then kicking for the space that he has created behind the opposition line.