What The Hell Was That For?

[Ash]

A lot of people who play club rugby don't even seem to know the rules about retiring. A lot seem to think that standing still and not advancing is fine. You actually have to make an attempt to retreat until on-side.

Actually, standing still and not advancing or retreating is 100% fine if you're outside the 10m. The rules are quite clear on it.. You definitely do not need to retire until put inside once out of the 10m area, Refs have been pinging people this year for advancing prior to being offside - it's a common lazy forward move and you see it all the time, especially in club rugby games as the forwards start walking before being put onside. The Reds (in particular, Horwill) have been penalised a few times for it so far this year as well.

 

[Scotty]

Refs have been incorrect on a few occasions though. Sometimes the offside player is taking the step forward at the same time as getting put onside and he is getting pinged. This is because the ref is looking more at the offside player than at the player putting them onside. Similar to a touch judge looking more at the line and a players foot and ignoring the fact he has got rid of the ball before touching the line.

IMO only the assistant refs should be policing offside play after kicks.

 

[elementfreak]

I had never seen someone move up the middle of the lineout before.

Techinically you could get him for "closing the gap" as generally people move around in the lineout outside of the gap although it's a pretty hard one to rule on and you will lose creditbility from the players.

 

[elementfreak]

That's a bit worrying. Thanks guys, that'll be in the back of my head next time I'm trying to defuse a kick in my 22...

How so? If you juggle the ball you are not in full control so why should you get rewared with a mark?

 

[qwerty51]

Yeah I think it's obvious IMO.

Like in cricket, control is defined as having the ability to dispose of the ball in your own purposeful way. Should be the same as a rugby ball. Juggling is not control and any marks awarded on the basis of juggling the ball would lead to people trying to mark the ball instead of catching it. ie. attempting to palm it upwards on first contact?

 

[DPK]

How so? If you juggle the ball you are not in full control so why should you get rewared with a mark?

I disagree. If you juggle a pass, and catch the ball, it's not considered a pass to yourself, or a knocked forward. If you catch it, you catch it, even if it takes a juggle to get it safely in both hands.

 

[Bullrush]

I disagree. If you juggle a pass, and catch the ball, it's not considered a pass to yourself, or a knocked forward. If you catch it, you catch it, even if it takes a juggle to get it safely in both hands.

The obvious difference is that there is no requirement to catch a pass cleanly.

 

[DPK]

So why is there one for a mark, Br?

 

[daz]

So why is there one for a mark, Br?

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but my understanding was that the mark was called before the ball was under control. If he had called the mark after the ball was under control, it would have been ok. I got my info from the Foxsports team, so I am willing to accept scorn and criticism if this is factually incorrect....

 

[PaarlBok]

Interesting article in SARugby.net

The Referee, Penalties and Cards
Tue, 03 May 2011 07:08

Louis Wessels, former top referee, former chairman of the Blue Bulls referees, former IRB assessor, member of South Africa's referees, a thinker on the game who did much to develop the use of the TMO has sent some of his thoughts to André Watson who has endorsed them and sent them on.

Firstly, I wish to state my complete agreement with what André and Dan de Villiers have said concerning cards and penalties. So often the action of the referee in this regard influences the result of a match. This is always regrettable, Sure, there are instances where the referee has no choice, but I would suggest a referee should be especially careful when this sort of situation exists or could happen. Penalise in the way that the infringement/offence warrants, but be very careful of awarding technical penalties in these situations.

A referee should not use a card to control a match/player(s). As André mentioned you have probably then already lost control. The answer is better man-management and proper communication. I have often stated that when players are sent off , the referee in effect acknowledges that he cannot control the game further while that particular player is on the field! Everybody does not agree with this statement, but just think about it for a moment. Of course, there are exceptions as there are to any and every rule. It is the referee’s job to ensure a fair contest at all times -- this is a basic requirement of the game. I am not saying you should condone foul play -- this should be dealt with accordingly, but is it still a fair contest if one team has fewer players on the field?

One gets the impression that, as stated by André and Dan, referees count infringements and issue final warnings. This should be avoided at all costs. Issuing final warnings often has the result that the referee has painted himself into a corner and with the next infringement has left himself with no options. Quite often the impression is created that a penalty/free kick infringement will be dealt with by awarding the kick -- almost at all costs except if fantastic advantage accrues. A card should be a last resort. We have seen too many games this season where a yellow card was issued when a penalty would have been quite sufficient. And in too many instances cards and penalties have decided the result of the game -- even two or three cards in a game, reducing a team to thirteen players. We have even seen cards being waved around after less than ten minutes' play -- and this was not for foul play! Ensure that the state, time and circumstances of the game warrants your action.

Penalties can often have the same effect. Nobody wants the referee to turn a blind eye to glaring infringements/offences, but look at an actual example from a game during the past weekend or two:

A ruck is taking place just left of one upright in team B’s 22. A wins possession and makes a mess of it. The referee runs thirty metres to the right of posts and penalises the outside centre for off-side. Quite correct technically, but did this have any influence whatsoever on the game? The penalty allowed A to draw level with B with just a few minutes remaining.

A tackle occurs and defending players go to ground, but fall clear of the passage of the ball and the attackers gain possession and continue play and then knock on. A penalty is awarded against the players going to ground. Did they influence possession or the run/continuity of play?

The following suggestions are put forward :

* It is not effective management just to shout ruck/maul/tackle/release;
* It is not effective management to only talk to the captain(s) once or twice during the game;
* It is good management to talk to an individual player(s) during “down time” -- tell the player “privately” ( e.g. when moving towards a line-out, scrum, etc) what the infringement was and that he was “saved” by advantage being applied.

Players will almost always react positively to individual (“private”) remarks -- in fact they usually appreciate this action by a referee;

* Manage all players all the time;
* Talk to all players involved at a set piece if and when necessary. Shouting general commands are not always effective;

What are the requirements/characteristics of a good referee?

* The referee who knows when NOT to blow the whistle;
* The referee that realises advantage is possible, in contrast to the one that waits to see if “something will happen”. There is a difference!
* The referee that knows the laws (especially the definitions) and knows how to interpret and apply them;
* The referee that establishes his authority on the game in the first 10 – 15 minutes by refereeing in such a way that players realise what will and what will not be allowed -- be very strict during this period and penalize do not allow players to get away with any indiscretions. Talk to individuals!!;
* The referee should be especially strict on Law 10 offences during this period. If you sort it out in the beginning you will eliminate most of the problems later;
* The referee who looks for a reason NOT to award a penalty. A penalty should only be awarded if the infringement influences possession, the run or continuity of play, hinders or obstructs an opponent , or is detrimental to the spirit and well-being of the game;
* Blow the game not the laws -- allow the game “to breathe”.

Enjoy the game and I wish everybody a successful season.

Louis Wessels

 

[Nusadan]

Excellent article PB...I try to referee in that vein!

But sometimes I have to be pedantic and penalise an outside centre for being a couple of metres in front of the offside line 20 metres away at a lineout situation...that's when I get to feel as if I am a killjoy...but that's what the opposition team wants...

 

[DPK]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but my understanding was that the mark was called before the ball was under control. If he had called the mark after the ball was under control, it would have been ok. I got my info from the Foxsports team, so I am willing to accept scorn and criticism if this is factually incorrect....

I hate to bang on about this, but I think juggling the ball doesn't mean you don't have control of it, it just means it takes you a little longer to gain full control over the ball.

Agree to disagree?

 

[Bullrush]

So why is there one for a mark, Br?

I have no idea.

I hate to bang on about this, but I think juggling the ball doesn't mean you don't have control of it, it just means it takes you a little longer to gain full control over the ball.

Agree to disagree?

Again, it isn't a question about whether one gets control at some stage but if they catch it cleanly.

It's an interesting one....

 

[Lee Grant]

I don't know what the fuss is about: Law 18 (Definitions) says that "the player must make a clean catch" to make a mark and Shipperly didn't. elementfreak indicated this earlier in the thread.

The way I've always seen "clean" interpreted is "not touched by an opponent".

"Clean" relates to the catch only. The Definitions also state that the kick must be "direct from an opponent's kick."

"Direct" is not defined in the laws but the lineout laws Definitions indicate that a ball kicked directly into touch is NOT one touched by a player in the field of play after the kick.

Therefore you were probably thinking of the word "direct" and not "clean".

.

 

[PaarlBok]

Told you about Jaco Peyper. Myself rate him very high and expect him to get to nr1 in the rankings. Got run down by Jean de Villiers in the Stormers Sharks match and eat a bit of Newlands turf but sure handle it excellent and had a good laugh

Sport24

'Refs fitter than scrummies'

Bloemfontein - A professional referee is probably fitter than a scrumhalf in Super Rugby and does just as much preparation as coaches and players ahead of matches.

That was the revelation by Jaco Peyper, who is one of South Africa's most promising referees and fast climbing the refereeing ladder. He was recently promoted to Sanzar's merit panel of referees.

The former Grey College pupil was earlier this month also appointed as one of the International Rugby Board's (IRB) referees for next month's Junior World Championships.

Even Brendan Venter recently had praise for Peyper. The former Springbok centre and coach of English club side Saracens is well-known for being outspoken on refereeing issues.

Peyper, a qualified lawyer, said that the game demanded that referees run 9-10 km's per game.

"The game has changed a lot at Super Rugby and Currie Cup level, and there are a lot more contact situations. More than 260 tackles were made in Saturday's match between the Stormers and Sharks, which I officiated. That means that close on four tackles are made every minute," said Peyper.

"The younger you are, the more difficult it is for you because you don't know the short cuts yet. Your judgment is also better when you aren't under pressure.

"I believe we need to be just as fit, if not fitter, than a scrumhalf at Super Rugby level."

Peyper, whose grandfather Japie Theron was also a Currie Cup referee and secretary of the Free State Rugby Union (FRU), said that referees also do a lot of analysis.

"We use advanced technology just like the players and coaches," he said.

"When I officiate a match between team X and team Y, I could look at video material of how they play and what techniques they use."

 

[Sandpit Fan]

Told you about Jaco Peyper. Myself rate him very high and expect him to get to nr1 in the rankings. Got run down by Jean de Villiers in the Stormers Sharks match and eat a bit of Newlands turf but sure handle it excellent and had a good laugh

Sport24

I thought he had whistled a good game in the Reds/Stormers match a few rounds back. Seems to have some promise.

 

[elementfreak]

Jaco is a really nice guy and a very good ref IMO. He came to Melbourne for the Sharks game I think it was and he came down to our training session and was more than happy to answer any questions we had. I haven't seen his game from the weekend although I am sure it was to his usual high standard.

 

[Sully]

I saw 2 lineouts on the Reds 5 metre line late in the Rebels game. Both lineouts were won by the Rebels and immediately pulled down by the Reds. 1 was penalised and the other not. What is the Law concerning this?

 

[Baldric]

I saw 2 lineouts on the Reds 5 metre line late in the Rebels game. Both lineouts were won by the Rebels and immediately pulled down by the Reds. 1 was penalised and the other not. What is the Law concerning this?

This is a hard one. The jumper can be pulled to ground if it is done as soon as he touches the ground. BUT this would have to be done before a maul is formed. And for a maul to take place you need an opposition player to be incontact with the ball carrier. If the maul has formed you cannot pull the player down.

So, if the jumper is lifted, and brought back to ground the jumping team would have a ball carrier and a person bound to him. The moment the opposition touches the jumper it could technically be considered a maul and therefore you cannot pull it down.

The practical refereeing of this is that so long as the jumper is pulled down as soon as he touches ground then it is ok.

 

[Ash]

I thought a maul required two or more players from each side - so a single player sacking the guy as soon as he hits the ground is fine, but if a second player from the defending side joins in then it's a maul.