P
PhucNgo
Guest
DPK said:
I hate to point out the flaw in this argument, but you're assuming that two sets of front rows can in fact keep time, no matter the tempo. :lmao:
What does everybody think about the law crackdown?
- Thread starter Lee Grant
- Start date
- Status
I hate to point out the flaw in this argument, but you're assuming that two sets of front rows can in fact keep time, no matter the tempo. :lmao:
Scotty
David Codey (61)
I am also a little annoyed that the refs are letting the first and second attacking support players go off their feet so readily. This was being cracked down on a year or so ago, but some seem to have forgotten it. If we are being strict on defensive players off their feet, then there should be a balance the other way.
P
PhucNgo
Guest
DPK said:
Yep, with the emphasis on (g)nome.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
the gambler said:
Good point - sometimes they are genuinely trapped. On the other hand if the tackler could have got away if he had landed on a snake, he should be pinged. But if the referee is unsure, he shouldn't guess and call unplayable. There was some of that last weekend.
What gets up my nose, and it shouldn't, is Kiwi commentators (especially) saying ad nauseum something like: "Look at that - there's no way he could have got out of there." They often miss the point that he could have got out of there had he taken action immediately on hitting the deck. They focus on the situation a second or two later when, indeed, he couldn't get out of there.
Talking of commentators - and I shouldn't really, but they are, ostensibly, a window of enlightenment for some to the game - there was a comment deploring the penalising of Brussouw last weekend. True, he was blameless, but his team mates behind him knocked him over the tackled player and he was pinged. IMO that was a fair penalty, not against Brussouw so much, but against the Cheetahs. Deliberately or not, they killed the ball, and should have been held accountable.
Accidental? Maybe; but if teams get away with it too much it will start appearing on coaches' clipboards as a loophole that works.
It's what they do.
Scotty
David Codey (61)
Yep, it shouldn't matter if it is accidental or not. If it is an offense, then it should be penalised.
However on the tackler rolling away issue, there must be some period of time allowed for the tackler to roll away, even if it is to get their bearings as to which way to roll. It is impossible to instantly move upon hitting the ground. Of course if he hasn't even stopped hugging the ball carrier then he should be pinged no matter the other circumstances.
On another note, I've always been a bit annoyed at the allowance of tackled players to pass the ball from the ground in rugby. If the tackler has to roll away and not allowed to be in the game anymore, then why can the tackled player effect a pass from the ground - essentially playing the ball off his feet. IMO it is an inconsistency in the laws.
However on the tackler rolling away issue, there must be some period of time allowed for the tackler to roll away, even if it is to get their bearings as to which way to roll. It is impossible to instantly move upon hitting the ground. Of course if he hasn't even stopped hugging the ball carrier then he should be pinged no matter the other circumstances.
On another note, I've always been a bit annoyed at the allowance of tackled players to pass the ball from the ground in rugby. If the tackler has to roll away and not allowed to be in the game anymore, then why can the tackled player effect a pass from the ground - essentially playing the ball off his feet. IMO it is an inconsistency in the laws.
the gambler
Dave Cowper (27)
Scotty said:
Disagree Scotty, as long as it is done immediately.
Lee - you said you don't like refs guessing and calling unplayable. Personally if he was guessig I would rather he called unplayable than give a penalty and 3 points to a side on a hunch. Which brings us back to the free kick sanction but I digress.
In the same way that coaches would start to encourage players to pretend to kill the ball, watch players to start pulling other players off their feet instead of actually cleaning a defender out, or for a latcher to deliberately fall on a defender and thus trapping him.
Langthorne
Phil Hardcastle (33)
Accidental off side:
I'm sure there is no room for interpretation in the laws, but I would like to see innocuous incidents (essentially no benefit to the offender) ignored. Blocking, shielding, shepherding etc should naturally still be pulled up.
The other option would be for players to be a bit less retarded in this area.
I'm sure there is no room for interpretation in the laws, but I would like to see innocuous incidents (essentially no benefit to the offender) ignored. Blocking, shielding, shepherding etc should naturally still be pulled up.
The other option would be for players to be a bit less retarded in this area.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Here's an interesting article by Peter Bills writing for The Independent
********************
Peter Bills: Referees must help English players learn the rules
Monday, 29 March 2010
Rugby's new refereeing interpretations are set to have a major effect at the World Cup next year. That much is being made crystal clear by IRB referee co-ordinator Paddy O'Brien.
There will be no changes from this policy. By June, when the northern hemisphere countries play Test matches in the southern hemisphere, they must be ready to adapt to the new law interpretations. There will be the same refereeing approach the world over.
But if England's players are to have any chance of getting to grips with them, then they are going to need far better refereeing than David Pearson offered at Northampton last weekend.
The players of New Zealand and Australia have a built-in advantage in terms of playing the game at pace, with dynamism and aggression. But England's players have no chance of understanding the new interpretations if they get so little help from a leading referee like Pearson. Frankly, his performance was nowhere near the international class he is supposed to represent.
In the first half, he and his assistant referee missed a glaring piece of obstruction which gifted Northampton a try and the half time lead. In fact, it was to prove crucial to the outcome of a game Northampton won by 5 points, the value of their ‘try' that never was.
But it was Pearson's failure to referee the breakdown that was so disappointing. He let players lay all over the loose ball, allowed the tackler to hold onto the ball carrier far too often and for too long.
As a result, the ball that eventually emerged from the breakdown was about half an hour behind the rapid, second phase ball that is now being recycled regularly in the Super 14. If that situation is allowed to continue, England's players have absolutely no chance of coming to grips with the far stricter interpretations which are rapidly changing the game for the better.
Pearson hardly seemed to know that a new, more dynamic, altogether quicker game is emerging. He seemed happy to allow the old status quo to continue. Coming just three days after a major meeting called by O'Brien, the IRB's referee co-ordinator, with all the leading northern hemisphere referees in attendance, that has to be disappointing in anyone's language.
Pearson's non-performance allowed the old ball-killing by both sides to such an extent that it was as though the revolution in law interpretations was a fantasy. You really expected better from an international referee. It was as though he had no interest in refereeing the new interpretations with their strict demands in five categories of play: the scrum sequence, the tackle area, offside around the fringes of ruck and maul, offside in general play especially after downfield kicks and finally, formation of the maul.
Northampton are almost certainly the most entertaining, attacking minded side in the Guinness Premiership and Pearson's reluctance to tackle the transgressors did them no favours whatsoever. But if referees at this level won't act, then the northern hemisphere has no chance of learning quickly, because for sure they're being left behind by all the southern hemisphere countries.
They had to adapt to these new strictures right from the start of this year's Super 14 in early February. The hard grounds across the southern hemisphere have been a huge advantage and encouragement to those seeking to play a faster, more dynamic game.
But it's only by the referees being so strict - in essence, being cruel to be kind – that players in the northern hemisphere are going to learn. If they get to the World Cup next year still struggling to come to terms with the new interpretations, it is hard to see them challenging the southern hemisphere dominance of the World Cup. Remember, only one northern hemisphere country, England in 2003, has ever won the tournament in six attempts.
That's not a record to be proud of and the players north of the equator need every bit of help they can get, if they are going to right that wrong in September next year, in New Zealand.
Pearson's performance was sub-standard in so many ways. He allowed Wasps half-back Joe Simpson to feed the ball so crookedly into one scrum that it all but missed his own second row, going straight into the feet of the No. 8 as the scrum slewed around.
Honestly, what is the point of having a scrum and laughingly calling it "a contest" if that sort of thing is allowed to happen? Amen
********************
Peter Bills: Referees must help English players learn the rules
Monday, 29 March 2010
Rugby's new refereeing interpretations are set to have a major effect at the World Cup next year. That much is being made crystal clear by IRB referee co-ordinator Paddy O'Brien.
There will be no changes from this policy. By June, when the northern hemisphere countries play Test matches in the southern hemisphere, they must be ready to adapt to the new law interpretations. There will be the same refereeing approach the world over.
But if England's players are to have any chance of getting to grips with them, then they are going to need far better refereeing than David Pearson offered at Northampton last weekend.
The players of New Zealand and Australia have a built-in advantage in terms of playing the game at pace, with dynamism and aggression. But England's players have no chance of understanding the new interpretations if they get so little help from a leading referee like Pearson. Frankly, his performance was nowhere near the international class he is supposed to represent.
In the first half, he and his assistant referee missed a glaring piece of obstruction which gifted Northampton a try and the half time lead. In fact, it was to prove crucial to the outcome of a game Northampton won by 5 points, the value of their ‘try' that never was.
But it was Pearson's failure to referee the breakdown that was so disappointing. He let players lay all over the loose ball, allowed the tackler to hold onto the ball carrier far too often and for too long.
As a result, the ball that eventually emerged from the breakdown was about half an hour behind the rapid, second phase ball that is now being recycled regularly in the Super 14. If that situation is allowed to continue, England's players have absolutely no chance of coming to grips with the far stricter interpretations which are rapidly changing the game for the better.
Pearson hardly seemed to know that a new, more dynamic, altogether quicker game is emerging. He seemed happy to allow the old status quo to continue. Coming just three days after a major meeting called by O'Brien, the IRB's referee co-ordinator, with all the leading northern hemisphere referees in attendance, that has to be disappointing in anyone's language.
Pearson's non-performance allowed the old ball-killing by both sides to such an extent that it was as though the revolution in law interpretations was a fantasy. You really expected better from an international referee. It was as though he had no interest in refereeing the new interpretations with their strict demands in five categories of play: the scrum sequence, the tackle area, offside around the fringes of ruck and maul, offside in general play especially after downfield kicks and finally, formation of the maul.
Northampton are almost certainly the most entertaining, attacking minded side in the Guinness Premiership and Pearson's reluctance to tackle the transgressors did them no favours whatsoever. But if referees at this level won't act, then the northern hemisphere has no chance of learning quickly, because for sure they're being left behind by all the southern hemisphere countries.
They had to adapt to these new strictures right from the start of this year's Super 14 in early February. The hard grounds across the southern hemisphere have been a huge advantage and encouragement to those seeking to play a faster, more dynamic game.
But it's only by the referees being so strict - in essence, being cruel to be kind – that players in the northern hemisphere are going to learn. If they get to the World Cup next year still struggling to come to terms with the new interpretations, it is hard to see them challenging the southern hemisphere dominance of the World Cup. Remember, only one northern hemisphere country, England in 2003, has ever won the tournament in six attempts.
That's not a record to be proud of and the players north of the equator need every bit of help they can get, if they are going to right that wrong in September next year, in New Zealand.
Pearson's performance was sub-standard in so many ways. He allowed Wasps half-back Joe Simpson to feed the ball so crookedly into one scrum that it all but missed his own second row, going straight into the feet of the No. 8 as the scrum slewed around.
Honestly, what is the point of having a scrum and laughingly calling it "a contest" if that sort of thing is allowed to happen? Amen
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
PS
This is exactly the kind of thing that we folks in the SH hope is going to happen. It is what some of us had theorised as soon as we saw the change in player attitude when the S14 started.
I watched last weekend's games: Munster v Glasgow and Toulouse v Biarritz and you could see a bit of cracking down but there wasn't enough of zero-tolerance that the S14 refs get close to.
The holding onto tackled players and tacklers using them to get themselves up (and having to because their rotary motion in the tackle would make them roll away naturally had they not held on) was alive and well, but I saw one strange thing in the Top14 game. After flanker Thierry Dusautoir came off the bench for Toulouse and tackled somebody he actually got himself up once. It was like seeing Hitler going to church.
We shouldn't snigger too hard in the SH. France has already upped the tempo of their play and although England are still arthritic they have some some good athletic young forwards hiding in the GP and elsewhere. Look for a few changes in the Pom forward pack next "autumn".
In the new law regime some of Ireland's forwards like THP Bull Hayes need to be put out to pasture and maybe even the great backrower Wallace needs to step aside, though it feels weird typing those words out. Even skipper POC looked a bit sluggish in 6N and .... weirder still.
The article is right about the refereeing being patchy in the observance of the crackdown up north. Some of them are struggling. But if they ever need help in a Munster game Alan Quinlan, the Munster 6, will always be there to help them out. They must love the guy.
This is exactly the kind of thing that we folks in the SH hope is going to happen. It is what some of us had theorised as soon as we saw the change in player attitude when the S14 started.
I watched last weekend's games: Munster v Glasgow and Toulouse v Biarritz and you could see a bit of cracking down but there wasn't enough of zero-tolerance that the S14 refs get close to.
The holding onto tackled players and tacklers using them to get themselves up (and having to because their rotary motion in the tackle would make them roll away naturally had they not held on) was alive and well, but I saw one strange thing in the Top14 game. After flanker Thierry Dusautoir came off the bench for Toulouse and tackled somebody he actually got himself up once. It was like seeing Hitler going to church.
We shouldn't snigger too hard in the SH. France has already upped the tempo of their play and although England are still arthritic they have some some good athletic young forwards hiding in the GP and elsewhere. Look for a few changes in the Pom forward pack next "autumn".
In the new law regime some of Ireland's forwards like THP Bull Hayes need to be put out to pasture and maybe even the great backrower Wallace needs to step aside, though it feels weird typing those words out. Even skipper POC looked a bit sluggish in 6N and .... weirder still.
The article is right about the refereeing being patchy in the observance of the crackdown up north. Some of them are struggling. But if they ever need help in a Munster game Alan Quinlan, the Munster 6, will always be there to help them out. They must love the guy.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
I don't know that things are as rosy as Robson says - and he should know that they are "laws" and not "rules" but there is a bit of truth in all of this.
Rules putting the Super back in Super 14
By TOBY ROBSON - The Dominion Post
If anyone doubted the effect of new refereeing interpretations at the breakdown, they must surely have been won over by a weekend of rugby that produced a series of matches that were as dramatic as they were entertaining.
From the Hurricanes' 26-26 Friday night draw with the Crusaders, David Hill's matchwinning drop goal on fulltime for the Force, to the Sharks' comeback 30-28 win in Durban yesterday, the Super 14 is living up to its moniker.
The Waratahs have surged to the top of the points table with their fifth straight win, 40-17 over the Cheetahs in Sydney where prop Al Baxter scored his first Super try in 100 matches.
The impressive Blues handed the Bulls their first defeat in 13 matches, their 32-17 win in Auckland making for thrilling viewing.
The Crusaders are third, one ahead of the Stormers, while the Reds, Chiefs, Brumbies and Blues are in mid-table.
The Hurricanes have dropped to ninth place and along with the Sharks have hopeful rather than likely semifinal aspirations, while the Highlanders are languishing hin 11th place after their 27-21 loss to the Chiefs at Mt Maunganui.
What is clear is the quality of rugby has steadily improved as a spectacle and a contest.
Simply by cracking down on the tackler's ability to slow down or steal the ball, referees have swung the balance back toward the attacking side and reinvigorated what was rightly decried as a stagnant spectacle less than year ago.
Kicking has been discouraged by the fact that territory and tries can be earned through ball retention and hard running, while the rolling maul has made a welcome return for those teams which are good enough to execute it.
Most interesting has been the effect on the form of players.
Ball-in-hand is back in vogue and players such as Blues centre Rene Ranger and No8 Villiame Ma'afu and Hurricanes No8 Victor have come into their own.
Scavenging specialists such Hurricanes openside Karl Lowe and to some extent even Crusaders and All Blacks captain Richie McCaw have been less influential.
Wings are becoming wings again, and veteran Joe Rokocoko has been among those to impress in a less kick-and-catch-heavy environment.
**********
Each week I still see a few games where the referees seem to be lapsing into bad habits and allowing the killing of the ball by defenders. I see a few also where refs go the other way and attackers are allowed to leave feet too much and visit the ruck sideways, but by and large there has been a salutary affect on the game.
Rules putting the Super back in Super 14
By TOBY ROBSON - The Dominion Post
If anyone doubted the effect of new refereeing interpretations at the breakdown, they must surely have been won over by a weekend of rugby that produced a series of matches that were as dramatic as they were entertaining.
From the Hurricanes' 26-26 Friday night draw with the Crusaders, David Hill's matchwinning drop goal on fulltime for the Force, to the Sharks' comeback 30-28 win in Durban yesterday, the Super 14 is living up to its moniker.
The Waratahs have surged to the top of the points table with their fifth straight win, 40-17 over the Cheetahs in Sydney where prop Al Baxter scored his first Super try in 100 matches.
The impressive Blues handed the Bulls their first defeat in 13 matches, their 32-17 win in Auckland making for thrilling viewing.
The Crusaders are third, one ahead of the Stormers, while the Reds, Chiefs, Brumbies and Blues are in mid-table.
The Hurricanes have dropped to ninth place and along with the Sharks have hopeful rather than likely semifinal aspirations, while the Highlanders are languishing hin 11th place after their 27-21 loss to the Chiefs at Mt Maunganui.
What is clear is the quality of rugby has steadily improved as a spectacle and a contest.
Simply by cracking down on the tackler's ability to slow down or steal the ball, referees have swung the balance back toward the attacking side and reinvigorated what was rightly decried as a stagnant spectacle less than year ago.
Kicking has been discouraged by the fact that territory and tries can be earned through ball retention and hard running, while the rolling maul has made a welcome return for those teams which are good enough to execute it.
Most interesting has been the effect on the form of players.
Ball-in-hand is back in vogue and players such as Blues centre Rene Ranger and No8 Villiame Ma'afu and Hurricanes No8 Victor have come into their own.
Scavenging specialists such Hurricanes openside Karl Lowe and to some extent even Crusaders and All Blacks captain Richie McCaw have been less influential.
Wings are becoming wings again, and veteran Joe Rokocoko has been among those to impress in a less kick-and-catch-heavy environment.
**********
Each week I still see a few games where the referees seem to be lapsing into bad habits and allowing the killing of the ball by defenders. I see a few also where refs go the other way and attackers are allowed to leave feet too much and visit the ruck sideways, but by and large there has been a salutary affect on the game.
- Status