Western Force - 2016

[Quick Hands]

^^^ One only has to look at the transformation in the Reds since the demise of Richard Graham to know what's required at the Force.

 

[Quick Hands]

The problem with the Force is that we have never had everything aligned at the right time. Top line administration/CEO, top line players, top line coach, money in the bank, great playing venue. We have had some of these at different points in time but you can argue never together at the one time.

If only we could turn back time and have Giteau, Drew Mitchell, Staniforth, Shepherd, Junior Ioane, Sharpe, Hodgo, Pocock, James O'Connor at their peaks with a top coach in a profitable Force environment playing at NIB stadium.

Some very good players have come through the Force but we haven't been able to capitalise on the opportunities presented to us.

Whilst a lot of people say we shouldn't bring in star players etc we need to build through the local competition..CRAP. Bring back the days where you had bloody talented guys on the field that could pull off some magic!

We need a benefactor to splash the cash and get things back on track. We are still the only professional sports team I can think of without a major sponsor. That speaks volumes as to what the corporate world thinks of the Force.

Some needs to get Gina Reinhart interested in rugby.

 

[brokendown]

well,she doesn't want to give any of her money to her kids,so why not?

 

[ForceFan]

^^^ One only has to look at the transformation in the Reds since the demise of Richard Graham to know what's required at the Force.

Do you actually know enough about the total set-up and history at the Force to make such a simplistic comment from the other side of the country?

Or just trying to be an all knowing/all wise expert?

 

[I like to watch]

It doesn't take a knowing all wise expert to know Michael Foley has failed as a head coach at two franchises in a row.

I think most people accept the Reds improved immediately they removed their failed head coach.

Nothing will change,until they make changes.

 

[Quick Hands]

Do you actually know enough about the total set-up and history at the Force to make such a simplistic comment from the other side of the country?

Or just trying to be an all knowing/all wise expert?

Thanks for the compliment, it's not often that I'm referred to as all knowing and wise.

I'm not sure that I know as much as you give me credit for, but the evidence of Michael Foley's coaching record at Super level is fairly compelling. As for that matter was Richard Graham's. Both gentlemen had chances at the two biggest franchises in the country and failed there, so that puts their records at the Force into context.

 

[ForceFan]

I'm not sure that I know as much as you give me credit for, but the evidence of Michael Foley's coaching record at Super level is fairly compelling. As for that matter was Richard Graham's. Both gentlemen had chances at the two biggest franchises in the country and failed there, so that puts their records at the Force into context.

We both agree about Richard Graham which also gives some indication of what Michael Foley inherited when he moved to the Force.

The Michael Foley/Waratahs story is a complex one and certainly needs to be put into context. I don't know the full details but from others who were close to the "coal face" there were many "cultural" issues which were only addressed by the new conditions negotiated and powers given to Cheika when he signed on (which weren't available to Foley).

We should all remember that we're talking about peoples' livelihoods.
How easy it is to enter into character assassination without knowing all of the facts.

 

[Quick Hands]

We both agree about Richard Graham which also gives some indication of what Michael Foley inherited when he moved to the Force.

The Michael Foley/Waratahs story is a complex one and certainly needs to be put into context. I don't know the full details but from others who were close to the "coal face" there were many "cultural" issues which were only addressed by the new conditions negotiated and powers given to Cheika when he signed on (which weren't available to Foley).

We should all remember that we're talking about peoples' livelihoods.
How easy it is to enter into character assassination without knowing all of the facts.

I have no personal issue with any of the people currently or formerly coaching super rugby in Australia. I've never assassinated anyone's character at any time on these threads or anywhere else. I merely praise or criticise their performance. In fact, I've praised Michael Foley's ability as a forwards coach/scrum coach consistently over a number of years on a number of threads.

Yes, it's their livelihood, but no one made them want to be a professional rugby coach. In any other field of employment (particularly highly played employment), you're judged on your results. If you don't get the results, you don't have a job - it's not unique to rugby or sport.

Anyone involved in professional sport - players, coaches and referees are paid hansomely for their time and effort. Part of the deal that goes with that is that they are accountable for the actions - just like all the rest of us ordinary people (perhaps even more so).

Like anyone, if coaches don't like the conditions under which they are employed (including the behaviour of their employer), then don't take the job in the first place. In the case of the Waratahs, Michael Foley was assistant coach before he took the head coach role - he knew full well the situation. In relation to his role at the Force, what he inherited wasn't as good as what he left at the Waratahs, but he's now in his third year.

While the win/loss ratio is of importance - what I also look at is the development of the players in the team and the style of play that the team is playing. In relation to the Force, what I see is talented players who are stagnating or regressing in terms of skill and game development and a style of rugby which is not only mind-numingly boring, but unlikely to improve - in fact it has also regressed in the 3 years of Foley coaching.

If you are happy with the Force, and enjoy their style of play and believe that Foley is providing individual players with the skills necessary to take them to the next level, then you ar entitled to that view. To me a pass mark for a coach isn't winning the competition, it's improving the players as individuals and providing the team with a structure which enables incremental improvement. I have yet to see any of this in evidence at the Force, nor did I see it at the Waratahs.

 

[ForceFan]

To me a pass mark for a coach isn't winning the competition, it's improving the players as individuals and providing the team with a structure which enables incremental improvement. I have yet to see any of this in evidence at the Force, nor did I see it at the Waratahs.

I suggest that you revisit from the viewpoint of the following:

1. The personal growth and development in Kieran Longbottom who was lifted to likely Wallabies selection (but blown by injury) and then moved to the Nthn Hemisphere (where his career has been plagued by injury).
2. The similar, ongoing development of Tetera Faulkner (Wallabies) who has just reached the 50 Super Rugby game milestone.
3. The ongoing development of Adam Coleman as the type of Lock that we need in the Wallabies.
4. The ongoing development of Dane Haylett-Petty after his return from France. This has all happened in Foley's time.
5. The development of Angus Cottrell from the EPS squad in 2011 into one of our better BSF whose career has been blighted by serious injury at critical stages.
6. The growth and development of local rugby players from the U20s level: Ross Haylett-Petty, Kane Koteka, Richard Hardwick, Luke Burton (again injuries), Harry Scoble, Ammon Matuauto, Anaru Rangi, Ryan Louwrans, the EPS/Academy group. The NRC has been an important part of this development and will continue to be so.
6. The ongoing support of players such as Matt Hodgson, Pek Cowan and Ben McCalman (all Wallabies) who have numerous chances to go elsewhere but have continued to show support for Michael Foley. Such LOYALTY appears to be missing in many other franchises.
8. Recognition of the potential of Jono Lance as a 10. Another one dashed by serious injury at the wrong time.
9. IMO the shortcomings of other individuals reflect more upon their own application and efforts (or lack of same) rather than the Coach's role.

One enigma is Kyle Godwin who also has been plagued by injury and has yet to return to his previous impact on game day. It seems that here too everybody is an expert but most/if not all of the comments I see on blogs are way off the mark. However, it appears that in his case we still have the presence of wise men from the East.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Fair report card......But unfortunately the reality in professional sport is whatever the reasons - if a team has underperformed after many years - a change in coach will be demanded.

I have been a critic of Foley but as you point out perhaps I am taking the easy typical route when a team has under performed for many years.

Doesn't matter though as end of the day regardless of whether decent coach or not - with that past record (and unless changes with some wins) Foley is unlikely to be coaching the force next year.

I also do note though the lack of a well known name backs coach, and have wondered whether that is part of the problem.

 

[Quick Hands]

I suggest that you revisit from the viewpoint of the following:

1. The personal growth and development in Kieran Longbottom who was lifted to likely Wallabies selection (but blown by injury) and then moved to the Nthn Hemisphere (where his career has been plagued by injury).
2. The similar, ongoing development of Tetera Faulkner (Wallabies) who has just reached the 50 Super Rugby game milestone.
3. The ongoing development of Adam Coleman as the type of Lock that we need in the Wallabies.
4. The ongoing development of Dane Haylett-Petty after his return from France. This has all happened in Foley's time.
5. The development of Angus Cottrell from the EPS squad in 2011 into one of our better BSF whose career has been blighted by serious injury at critical stages.
6. The growth and development of local rugby players from the U20s level: Ross Haylett-Petty, Kane Koteka, Richard Hardwick, Luke Burton (again injuries), Harry Scoble, Ammon Matuauto, Anaru Rangi, Ryan Louwrans, the EPS/Academy group. The NRC has been an important part of this development and will continue to be so.
6. The ongoing support of players such as Matt Hodgson, Pek Cowan and Ben McCalman (all Wallabies) who have numerous chances to go elsewhere but have continued to show support for Michael Foley. Such LOYALTY appears to be missing in many other franchises.
8. Recognition of the potential of Jono Lance as a 10. Another one dashed by serious injury at the wrong time.
9. IMO the shortcomings of other individuals reflect more upon their own application and efforts (or lack of same) rather than the Coach's role.

One enigma is Kyle Godwin who also has been plagued by injury and has yet to return to his previous impact on game day. It seems that here too everybody is an expert but most/if not all of the comments I see on blogs are way off the mark. However, it appears that in his case we still have the presence of wise men from the East.

I'll give you point 6 (the first one).

Seemingly a lot of injuries?

 

[ForceFan]

I'll give you point 6 (the first one).

Seemingly a lot of injuries?

Thanks for your generosity.

The frequency of injuries are just like all of the other rugby franchises.

Are you aware that the average career of an Aussie Super Rugby player is only 2.5 years??

That's the average career across ALL Aussie franchises.

It's a tough gig.

 

[TOCC]

Ollie Hoskins has signed wth London Irish :/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ForceFan]

I also do note though the lack of a well known name backs coach, and have wondered whether that is part of the problem.

Foley was initially recruited by the Western Force as Coaching Co-Ordinator and was to have 3 coaches (including a head coach) working under him.

The $$ shortages at the WF arose with the slump in mining in WA/Australia - at the same time as Foley was joining and Emirates withdrew as the naming sponsor.

The 4th Coach has never been recruited due to the shortage of $$s.

Re next year - you're entitled to your opinion.

However, the Force's situation has been created by ALL involved from the Chairman - Board - CEO - the playing group (and even the ARU).

Foley still has the support of his playing group as they too were part of the strategies laid out last year. Today's article in the West Australian indicates that Foley is getting as tired of players who 'train like Tarzan yet play like Jane' as the rest of the Force fans.

Next year will depend on what unfolds over the latter half of the season.
In particular the outcomes re the financial position of the club after the ARU getting more involved (as muted - with no details known).

Four players have already indicated moves at the end of this season - Hoskins, Walton, Mafi & Rasolea.
However, there are another 14 players who have yet to be contracted beyond this season.

 

[Highlander35]

Why would you do that honestly?

Not nots are down. Championship will be a higher standard than NRC yes, but it's a ridiculous step down from Super Rugby.

 

[ForceFan]

Why would you do that honestly?

Not nots are down. Championship will be a higher standard than NRC yes, but it's a ridiculous step down from Super Rugby.

He's young, has been struggling to displace others at the Force, 1st chance to live away from home and be OS, a chance to play regular rugby (which he obviously loves) and was most likely offered higher pay in GBP (so gains on 4X) as the English teams love their scrummagers.

 

[Quick Hands]

Foley was initially recruited by the Western Force as Coaching Co-Ordinator and was to have 3 coaches (including a head coach) working under him.

The $$ shortages at the WF arose with the slump in mining in WA/Australia - at the same time as Foley was joining and Emirates withdrew as the naming sponsor.

The 4th Coach has never been recruited due to the shortage of $$s.

Re next year - you're entitled to your opinion.

However, the Force's situation has been created by ALL involved from the Chairman - Board - CEO - the playing group (and even the ARU).

Foley still has the support of his playing group as they too were part of the strategies laid out last year. Today's article in the West Australian indicates that Foley is getting as tired of players who 'train like Tarzan yet play like Jane' as the rest of the Force fans.

Next year will depend on what unfolds over the latter half of the season.
In particular the outcomes re the financial position of the club after the ARU getting more involved (as muted - with no details known).

Four players have already indicated moves at the end of this season - Hoskins, Walton, Mafi & Rasolea.
However, there are another 14 players who have yet to be contracted beyond this season.

I'd agree that there's a lot of other factors involved in the Force's current predicament than just the coach.

 

[TOCC]

The $$ shortages at the WF arose with the slump in mining in WA/Australia - at the same time as Foley was joining and Emirates withdrew as the naming sponsor.

The 4th Coach has never been recruited due to the shortage of $$s.

From memory the Force have posted consecutive losses since 2008 and revenue has remained around the same amount since 2010, long before the mining slump and Emirates sponsorship finished(2013).

 

[Quick Hands]

Thanks for your generosity.

The frequency of injuries are just like all of the other rugby franchises.

Are you aware that the average career of an Aussie Super Rugby player is only 2.5 years??

That's the average career across ALL Aussie franchises.

It's a tough gig.

Professional sport is a tough gig for all participants - players, coaches and officials. This is well known. This is why the participants are well renumerated. They all go into it with eyes wide open.

Whether people like it or not, it's a results driven business. Across the length and breadth of the professional sporting world coaches, players and officials are accountable for their results and in terms of coaches, it's what determines the length of their career. Harsh as it may be that's the reality.

 

[ForceFan]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/31486676/force-captain-hodgson-to-play-on/

And why wouldn't he keep going while his body lets him.

After Round 10 his averages as follows:

Ruck Involvements: 38 Total (27 Attack/11 Defence)

Turn Overs Won: 1.5 per game.

Tackles: 14 at 90%. Still the leading tackler in Super Rugby by 24.

What you see is what you get - week-in, week-out.