Waratahs vs Force - Super Rugby R7 2013 - Sunday 31st March

[Pfitzy]

Another Rogers, Sailor, Tahu and Tuiqiri.. Do we need these players? Have they helped us get a title?

Have any of the supposed "good rugby men" with the right school ties got us a title?

At least argue from a point of strength if you're going to bother.

 

[Ash]

Two weeks in a row about 15,000 on a sunny Sunday afternoon. If I could offer a couple of suggestions to Waratahs marketing types:

1. Stop charging 4 year olds $10 to go to the match. Perhaps justified if your'e getting 35-40,000, but that's not happening

2. Offer every junior club in Sydney 50-100 children's tickets for Sunday afternoon matches. You get the kids, you get the parents. The parents have to but their tickets and buy food, drink etc.

A few posts along the lines of "cheap or free tickets and make money on the food, drink, etc". Unfortunately that's not true. Food/drink sales money all goes to the franchise or SCG Trust. It's the same at all major stadiums. The teams only make money from ticket sales.

Teams need to focus on getting paying punters through the door. Cheap/free tickets are fine up to a point. If that's the only continual way teams can get bums on seats then they are in big, big trouble.

The Tahs would be better of financially at Homebush, as much as the fans would hate it. That's why Souths moved from the SFS to Homebush a few years back.

 

[Italophile]

Certainly in the northern hemisphere matches that I watched in the off-season, the sequence was noticeably quicker than is currently the case in Super rugby.

It is quicker amongst the NH refs. The SH refs' slower calls during the 6N matches caused timing problems for various front rows.

 

[Quick Hands]

Have any of the supposed "good rugby men" with the right school ties got us a title?

At least argue from a point of strength if you're going to bother.

And if rugby wants to progress, we need get away from this us and them attitude. You can't classify people as union players, league players, Aussie rules players etc any more. They are professional athletes and they are free to ply their trade where they want and rugby needs to get as many people playing rugby as possible. We can't just sit back and say that we don't want to know about anyone who hasn't played the game since they were 6. About 2/3rds of Sydney have no rugby option to play anyway at that age.

I know that if someone offered me twice my wage to change employers, I'd at the very least consider it.

If you didn't know the history and went to yesterday's game, anyone would be hard pressed to find anything different about Folau than the other players on the field. He's a guy playing rugby, and in my humble opinion, he's doing a rather good job at it.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

No wonder our crowd numbers are down. There is no community spirit, we dont support our Shute Shield players by passing them over with imports, what do the players in the Shute Shield think when we pas them over with the likes of Folau, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or Mitchell?

I think there's something in this bit.
If there were more Tahs players connected to more SS clubs there might be a community feeling that "he's one of ours".
In the olden days we used to truck out to Concord to watch the Tahs lose to Waikato in the Super 6's or Super 10's because we knew blokes who were playing.

 

[Quick Hands]

It is quicker amongst the NH refs. The SH refs' slower calls during the 6N matches caused timing problems for various front rows.

That was my perception as well. I remember watching the early matches and remarking how quick the new scrum engagement process was and how well it was working to minimise collapse/reset. Scrums together, ball in ball out and on with the game. Obviously someone at SANZAR refs has unilaterally decided that ready means still and we all have to go through 2 1/2 minute scrums.

 

[Stands]

Have any of the supposed "good rugby men" with the right school ties got us a title?

At least argue from a point of strength if you're going to bother.

And what your position of strength is Old School Ties really that is the best you have?

Have I brought up school ties? what other slurs could you possibly muster to defend your position?

It hasn't worked using players like Folea and we constantly waste money on these players and lose good players to other states at the same time.

 

[Italophile]

That was my perception as well. I remember watching the early matches and remarking how quick the new scrum engagement process was and how well it was working to minimise collapse/reset. Scrums together, ball in ball out and on with the game. Obviously someone at SANZAR refs has unilaterally decided that ready means still and we all have to go through 2 1/2 minute scrums.

Joubert was the worst offender during the 6N. It was like listening to an audio book of War and Peace.

 

[Pfitzy]

And what your position of strength is Old School Ties really that is the best you have?

Have I brought up school ties? what other slurs could you possibly muster to defend your position?

It hasn't worked using players like Folea and we constantly waste money on these players and lose good players to other states at the same time.

You argue the league players aren't delivering titles. I point out the union players - who are channelled through the narrowest of pathways* - aren't either. I'm not arguing with you; I'm pointing out how idiotic your argument is.

I will now go on to point out that your argument also smacks of the old school mentality that Quick Hands is talking about above. There is no Rugby vs Everyone Else. There is people we sign up and people we don't.

We don't lose players to other states - we fucking discard them and sign up half of Sydney Uni just because they win titles! Why do they win titles? Because they buy the talent.

What do the Tahs do? Sign Nick Phipps! Jesus wept...

* like the Shute Shield, relying on a few competing organisations (private schools in this case) to carry the load has made rugby representation an inbred and diseased practise. It needs fixing, and the move to introduce Sevens Rugby to schools is a start. But it won't win the West, which is desperately in need of better support.

 

[barbarian]

No wonder our crowd numbers are down. There is no community spirit, we dont support our Shute Shield players by passing them over with imports, what do the players in the Shute Shield think when we pas them over with the likes of Folau, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or Mitchell?

So you are arguing Folau has had a negative impact on crowds. Hmmm.

I have been out in the crowd for two games this season, and every time Izzy has got the ball the people around me have audibly lifted. 'Oooh it's Izzy', 'come on Izzy' etc.

I reckon without Folau they would be pulling in 12-13k. The added interest and coverage Folau brings has been a clear positive for the Tahs IMO.
.

 

[Richo]

http://www.rugbystats.com.au/rugby/super15/player-stats.html

Israel Folau: 486 metres on 49 runs, for 10m per run.
Digby Ioane: 507 metres on 58 runs, for 8.8m per run.

Obviously that's only one very narrow measure, but it does suggest that this Folau fellow has some serious bloody talent. He's also second in the competition for offloads. Is he the finished product? Not even remotely. But to suggest that he's not worth having in the side is either willful blindness or evidence that you're not watching the games.

 

[Pfitzy]

* like the Shute Shield, relying on a few competing organisations (private schools in this case) to carry the load has made rugby representation an inbred and diseased practise. It needs fixing, and the move to introduce Sevens Rugby to schools is a start. But it won't win the West, which is desperately in need of better support.

No, that's not quite right. Allow me to correct my own thought:

Precisely because of this practise of signing and playing players to franchise out of (mostly private) school, they're never exposed to grade rugby for long enough to grow into men ie. have the shit kicked out of them. Some turn into James O'Connor or Kurtley Beale.

The result is the Club scene becomes weaker, and the schools don't get any better because the pyramid on which their competition is built is not broad enough to push the structure higher.

 

[Stands]

So you are arguing Folau has had a negative impact on crowds. Hmmm.

I have been out in the crowd for two games this season, and every time Izzy has got the ball the people around me have audibly lifted. 'Oooh it's Izzy', 'come on Izzy' etc.

I reckon without Folau they would be pulling in 12-13k. The added interest and coverage Folau brings has been a clear positive for the Tahs IMO.
.

No I am arguing that the hiring of Folau et al, helps in the disenfranchising of the Waratahs community spirit and following because the Waratahs will always hire a player from another code if they are available (and their mgt does a great job of promoting them).

Didnt they bring in 15k on the weekend? what so he brought in 2k ?

2K followers calling out 'Oooh it's Izzy', 'come on Izzy' etc.?

Yeah thats what the Waratahs need.

 

[barbarian]

No I am arguing that the hiring of Folau et al, helps in the disenfranchising of the Waratahs community spirit and following because the Waratahs will always hire a player from another code if they are available (and their mgt does a great job of promoting them).

Didnt they bring in 15k on the weekend? what so he brought in 2k ?

2K followers calling out 'Oooh it's Izzy', 'come on Izzy' etc.?

Yeah thats what the Waratahs need.

What, fans with an emotional stake in the performance of a player? Yeah they really bring down the mood.

And the idea that the Tahs will 'always hire a player from another code' is rubbish. The last time they got someone from another code was, what, Rogers? Back in 2001? That is 12 years. Fair while between drinks.

I would be annoyed if they brought in a raft of leaguies, and there was a period where they got a bit silly (remember Ryan McGoldrick?). But that time is well past.
.

 

[Henry]

Careful Henry some people get riled when you notice that our backs don't pass. One could imply that as a newbie, Folou is simply doing what he has observed other more experienced players in his team doing. It appears to be a rather common trait from our backs.

I haven't seen the Blues game or the Force game on tv as I was at the stadium. I think he is developing into a great union player. As some other posters have rightly pointed out Folau does pass, I was slightly over exaggerating. I was trying to get across that he should perhaps look for support more, rather than try and beat the last line of defence one on one.

For example, last week against the Blues after some good work from other Tah players Folau was making a break down the right hand touch line. Kingston was with him in support. The crowd was going crazy and it looked like a certain try. He had the one Blues player to beat and instead of utilising the 2 on 1 he tried to shimmy around him and got tackled.

Against the Force there were a few similar situations where he isolated himself or did not make the right decision in contact. Obviously no player in the world is going to make the right decision 100% of the time, and Folau is no exception.

On another note, how well is Foley playing. 2rd in overall line breaks and 3rd in try assists. Hopefully he can become the (first ever?) long term 10 the Tahs need.

(http://www.rugbystats.com.au/rugby/super15/player-stats.html?refresh=1364815019812)

 

[Henry]

And the idea that the Tahs will 'always hire a player from another code' is rubbish. The last time they got someone from another code was, what, Rogers? Back in 2001? That is 12 years. Fair while between drinks.


.

Agreed. The sooner we forget Tahu the better.

 

[#1 Tah]

All these arguments prove is that even when we have a side that is really playing footy and enjoying each week, even when we have players like Holloway being picked on merit from the Shute Shield, even when NSW natives like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) come home to play for their home state, EVEN WHEN WE WIN A BLOODY GAME people still complain about the Tahs. never. bloody. ending.

 

[Stands]

What, fans with an emotional stake in the performance of a player? Yeah they really bring down the mood.

And the idea that the Tahs will 'always hire a player from another code' is rubbish. The last time they got someone from another code was, what, Rogers? Back in 2001? That is 12 years. Fair while between drinks.

I would be annoyed if they brought in a raft of leaguies, and there was a period where they got a bit silly (remember Ryan McGoldrick?). But that time is well past.
.

Tuqiri 2003
Tahu 2008

 

[mjw]

Tuqiri 2003
Tahu 2008

Does Ryan Cross count?

 

[Richo]

One every 5 years. Someone close the floodgates!