Waratahs vs Chiefs Super Rugby Rd 10, Fri 19 April 2013

[Braveheart81]

I've seen the game twice now and paid particular attention to that pass from AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) to Crawford and I cannot see the forward pass in which you are referring. The ball travels backwards.

Just to clear it up. Here's a link to some highlights. http://www.pakiscorner.com/ The pass in question occurs in around 25 seconds in and you get a pretty good overview of it at the 54 second mark which illustrates it was perfectly fine.

It's the second try people are referring to; the pass from Horne to Crawford. It's at about 8:25 in the video.

I think it is very much line ball. Not definitely forward. If you watch carefully, Horne gets his hands quite far in front of him and I think you could easily make a case that the pass was flat.

I certainly don't think it was a blatant forward pass and possibly wouldn't get called back by the TMO if the whole sequence was reviewed. That pass is never likely to get called back in a live setting as the referee and touch judge are never going to be square enough to make a proper judgement.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It's the second try people are referring to; the pass from Horne to Crawford. It's at about 8:25 in the video.

I think it is very much line ball. Not definitely forward. If you watch carefully, Horne gets his hands quite far in front of him and I think you could easily make a case that the pass was flat.

I certainly don't think it was a blatant forward pass and possibly wouldn't get called back by the TMO if the whole sequence was reviewed. That pass is never likely to get called back in a live setting as the referee and touch judge are never going to be square enough to make a proper judgement.

Ahh.........right. Looking at it, it could have gone either way. Wasn't half a metre forward but certainly was flat.

 

[hawktrain]

Yeah, it was my gut feeling that it was forward, but looking back at that footage, the touchie (Angus Gardner I believe?) is pretty much in line with it and has a good look at it and presumably gave it the all-clear.

Could've done with a TMO review seeing as we've brought in the capability for the TMO to look at stuff like that in the lead-up though, it was a pretty crucial moment.

Looking at it again makes me realise how well Foley did in the lead up, drew Sam Cane in and then passed at the right moment, he looks like he's growing in confidence with a bit of time in the 10 jersey.

 

[Braveheart81]

Could've done with a TMO review seeing as we've brought in the capability for the TMO to look at stuff like that in the lead-up though, it was a pretty crucial moment.

I really disagree with this. There was nothing obviously wrong or questionable about the try to require it to be reviewed by the TMO.

If you're going to send that try to the TMO to review the last two phases, you may as well be sending every single try to the TMO. That would be a terrible outcome for rugby.

Just because it was a crucial moment in the game doesn't mean the referee can't make the decision on the field.

 

[Lee Grant]

LG, you've got better eyes than me, I watched it live and I've since looked at a replay and I still can't work out how the Tahs grabbed the ball from that last 22 dropout. Who did it? And how?

Wasn't the last passage up the paddock (11 phases?) wonderful to watch? Please, please, Michael, do it to me again.

Cam Crawford picked up the ball as one intrepid reporter wrote here in the "The Game Changer" section:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/review-tahs-boss-chiefs/

Mind you I couldn't identify him at the ground.

PS: How about my photo of Ben Tameifuna in the warmup? That's what I call an arse. Needed a wide angle lens for that snap.
.

 

[fatprop]

A bit of trivia, Rob Horne - 85m topped the metres gained for the game

http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match21281.html

 

[hawktrain]

I really disagree with this. There was nothing obviously wrong or questionable about the try to require it to be reviewed by the TMO.

If you're going to send that try to the TMO to review the last two phases, you may as well be sending every single try to the TMO. That would be a terrible outcome for rugby.

Just because it was a crucial moment in the game doesn't mean the referee can't make the decision on the field.

I agree with your sentiment of not wanting rugby to become like league where 2/3rds of tries get sent upstairs, but if the TMO is not used to look at incidents like this one, then why bother expanding the capabilities of the TMO? I don't agree with the idea that there was nothing questionable about that try, I personally thought that pass was questionable and worth a look. If they had've gone to the TMO, had a look, said there was no clear evidence of a forward pass and then given the try, I'd be fine with that. Its just the idea of having a TMO who can look at it, but not using it that confuses me. Anyway, it happened days ago now, time to prepare for another round and see if the Waratahs can back it up.

 

[Rob42]

I agree with your sentiment of not wanting rugby to become like league where 2/3rds of tries get sent upstairs, but if the TMO is not used to look at incidents like this one, then why bother expanding the capabilities of the TMO? I don't agree with the idea that there was nothing questionable about that try, I personally thought that pass was questionable and worth a look. If they had've gone to the TMO, had a look, said there was no clear evidence of a forward pass and then given the try, I'd be fine with that. Its just the idea of having a TMO who can look at it, but not using it that confuses me. Anyway, it happened days ago now, time to prepare for another round and see if the Waratahs can back it up.

The TMO would have had no more information on which to base his decision than the AR and ref who were both reasonably positioned. There's no way any TMO would rule such a pass as forward, you simply can't tell from that camera angle unless it is way forward, which this pass was not.

The extra capabilities of the TMO are to allow him to rule on obvious knock-ons or similar which were missed by the ref - the absolute "howlers" which previously were obvious to everyone on replay but could not be adjuciated on by the TMO. I doubt either the ref or the AR thought this pass was even lineball - you see plenty of these in every match, every time you have two players running at full speed.

 

[Braveheart81]

I agree with your sentiment of not wanting rugby to become like league where 2/3rds of tries get sent upstairs, but if the TMO is not used to look at incidents like this one, then why bother expanding the capabilities of the TMO? I don't agree with the idea that there was nothing questionable about that try, I personally thought that pass was questionable and worth a look. If they had've gone to the TMO, had a look, said there was no clear evidence of a forward pass and then given the try, I'd be fine with that. Its just the idea of having a TMO who can look at it, but not using it that confuses me. Anyway, it happened days ago now, time to prepare for another round and see if the Waratahs can back it up.

I don't know how you can effectively use the TMO in this situation.

If the referee/assistant thought that the pass was forward then they would call it up straight away. It wasn't as if it was in the phase leading to the try where they might watch what unfolds before making a decision (like a forward pass by James O'Connor a couple of weeks ago that led directly to a try and was overturned by the TMO). If they did think it was forward then you can't let play continue for two phases just to see what unfolds. If the Tahs hadn't scored, it's not like you can call it up a metre out from the Chiefs goal line and say no advantage Chiefs; Chiefs scrum 30 metres out from your line.

If they didn't pick up a forward pass and they let play continue and then two phases later the Tahs score then the referee would have no thought that he needs to review for a possible forward pass previously. For the TMO to be used in this instance, the refere or the assistant would have had to have thought there was something wrong with the try far closer to the try being scored than that pass (even though it fell within the two phase rule).

It seems to me that incidents more likely to be reviewed by a TMO from the previous two phases before a try are things like obstruction, offside or maybe a potential knock on from a high ball that was contested by both sides.

 

[hawktrain]

I was suggesting it could've been checked in the same way as this try from 2 rounds ago - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Dgd4p61IXOc#t=268s which albeit was off probably a more obviously forward pass.

If the AR (who was in a decent position to judge the pass) said to the referee (who was a couple of metres behind it, not the best position to judge) that it was fine, then that's all good, even if I wouldn't necessarily agree with that judgement from what I could see.

 

[Braveheart81]

hawktrain - that to me seems like an incorrect decision in that the pass happened a clear three phases before the try in my opinion. That shouldn't be able to be reviewed.

I don't think that is a good outcome for the game at all. If there was another phase before the try does Kaplan just have to award the try because it is too long ago? In my opinion the TMO should have said it was three phases ago, I can't review it. I think there are clear problems when the referee is playing on for so long after something they considered ruling against and then being able to go back and review.

 

[Hawko]

A bit of trivia, Rob Horne - 85m topped the metres gained for the game

http://www.rugbystats.com.au/matches/rugby/match21281.html

Funny how when I watched the game I thought Horne was pretty OK but I never would have picked him for most run metres. Fat cat must have been close on the basis of his 120 metre break in the first five minutes.

 

[hawktrain]

hawktrain - that to me seems like an incorrect decision in that the pass happened a clear three phases before the try in my opinion. That shouldn't be able to be reviewed.

Yeah its a curly one, this debate has shown up a whole lot of potential holes in the TMO changes. The Crusaders one was clearly a forward pass and should've been called at the time, but as you say, it was technically 3 phases earlier so by the law, shouldn't have been ruled on, even though we could all see it.

 

[Richo]

It's never possible to eliminate human error and that's something we should all accept. Rugby has a pretty good balance -- 2 phases and only at the referee's request is more than sufficient, I think. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? 5 phases? 10? It's always frustrated when a true error is missed, but I'm willing to accept that if it means the TMO plays a judicious role rather than an all-encompassing one.

 

[Lindommer]

.....where do you draw the line? 5 phases? infringement committed by a Reds player?, seems eminently reasonable 10? by anyone else, play on

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I like the line of your thinking Lindommer.

It is a fine line between referring to the TMO for decisions and slowing the game down to a boreathon of constant referrals to the TMO for 5 minutes of replays from 15 different angles at 6 speeds.

The refs and AR's are highly competant individuals (most of the time) who need to back their own judgement and live game management.

 

[Dan54]

I actually said in other thread in here, I get impression the refs are just not making calls near the line knowing they can go back for replays. Even Mrs Dan54 said to me when I got back from rugby on Sat, that she starting to go off watching games as it seems we spending half a game looking at replays!

 

[JSRF10]

The amount of PB's achieved in this one just shows how much work there was done in defense. Although stats aren't the be all and end all its still very impressive IMO.

Disclaimer: Taken from Tahs Member Email


Dave Dennis – 14 tackles
Kane Douglas – 11 tackles (equal best)
Bernard Foley – 11 tackles at 85% success rate
Rob Horne – 10 contested rucks (in defense)
Sekope Kepu – 11 tackles
Brendan McKibbin – 11 Tackles
Sitaleki Timani – 15 tackles and 12 contested rucks (in defense)

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Open Letter to The Tahs

Dear Tahs,

You have shown us that you can do it.

We saw evidence of a good game plan on Friday night.

We saw solid execution of a game plan on Friday night.

Keep on doing it. There are no excuses available any more.

Bring back some bokke hide from your overseas trip.

Yours in Rugby
Long Suffering Tahs Fans

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The amount of PB's achieved in this one just shows how much work there was done in defense. Although stats aren't the be all and end all its still very impressive IMO.

Disclaimer: Taken from Tahs Member Email


Dave Dennis – 14 tackles
Kane Douglas – 11 tackles (equal best)
Bernard Foley – 11 tackles at 85% success rate
Rob Horne – 10 contested rucks (in defense)
Sekope Kepu – 11 tackles
Brendan McKibbin – 11 Tackles
Sitaleki Timani – 15 tackles and 12 contested rucks (in defense)

I wasn't just imagining it.