Waratahs v. Kings Round 12 Sunday 1am EST

[Bruce Ross]

the Kiwis, with their ITM Cup, and especially the South Africans, with both Vodacom Cup and Currie Cup competitions, have a big advantage over us.

Their players learn their trade at a third-tier level and then get bumped up to second-tier level Super Rugby once they have proved themselves. Since Oz has no third-tier rugby, our players are judged on how they play in club rugby, which is fourth-tier.

Is the standard of ITM Cup rugby notably higher than Shute Shield rugby, LG? I doubt it. Over the years I have heard a number of senior New Zealand rugby men who have attended Sydney club games willingly concede that our top teams would be very competitive in their county level competition.

I think that the main advantage the Kiwis have over us is their much greater pool of talent; a reflection not of the fact that they have a third tier competition and we only have fourth tier but rather that the sport of rugby is first tier over there while here it is very much third tier among the oval ball codes.
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[Pfitzy]

Breakdown and scrum in ITM is a damn sight harder than SS. I think those kiwis were being diplomatic.

 

[I like to watch]

Is the standard of ITM Cup rugby notably higher than Shute Shield rugby, LG? I doubt it. Over the years I have heard a number of senior New Zealand rugby men who have attended Sydney club games willingly concede that our top teams would be very competitive in their county level competition.

I think that the main advantage the Kiwis have over us is their much greater pool of talent; a reflection not of the fact that they have a third tier competition and we only have fourth tier but rather that the sport of rugby is first tier over there while here it is very much third tier among the oval ball codes.
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The difference IMO, is that the ITM includes all their pro players all season.
The Shute Shield only features them at the end of the comp.

 

[Lee Grant]

Amen to the left foot kick.
I don't understand how blokes go so far, play and practice rugby so much and yet just haven't found the time to get a left foot kick.

Amen to the Amen. I've seen Kurtley Beale play the game since he was 13 years old, but I can remember just one kick with his left foot, and that was charged down.

Berrick Barnes is fairly decent as a lefty. And whilst I'm talking about him: you'd think he would have been exactly the type of player the Waratahs needed against a team like the Bulls in Rd. 11; but as as much as he kicks the ball, he's not that great at it.

Oz rugby is almost bereft of flyhalves who can manage a game with their foot, let alone with both feet as Wilko or Carter can do.

The best of them have sniffed the air and came to the correct conclusion that their abilities would be appreciated more in Europe, and they were right. Brock James, Dan Parks and Paul Warwick are not household names in Australia, but because of long periods of poor ground and weather conditions in northern climes, their type of game is of more use over there.

Dan Parks carved out a nice international career for Scotland. There were times when ROG was down and Sexton not yet up that Warwick could have been in an Ireland 22, had he been eligible, and there was a time a few years back when Brock James could have started for France (ditto) when a couple of flyhalves were down and Skrela couldn't kick a goal for his club, but played - and couldn't kick a goal in the test either (against Australia).

Crikey even the current coach of Sydney Uni, Chris Malone, God bless him, was on a good earn over there.

As a digression to my digression: Hangers should have gone earlier than he did. I saw him play a few weeks ago for Zebre against Leinster versing Lions players O'Driscoll and Sexton, and several scrubbers from the Leinster reserves, but he looked like he belonged in European rugby.

But back to my shaky point: we need Oz flyhalves, who can manage a tactical game as well as the running game spawned by our generally dry conditions and hard, sandy soil..
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[Lee Grant]

Is the standard of ITM Cup rugby notably higher than Shute Shield rugby, LG? I doubt it.

Disagree with that, though not so much when all the (non-Wallaby) Super players are back playing after a few weeks recovery from the Super Rugby season, but that is not a heap of weeks as a proportion to the number of rounds.

The ITM Cup is short (last year teams played only 10 pool games each) and is held after Super Rugby is finished. Last year it started 5-6 weeks after the last Super Rugby pool game; so most of the (non-All Black) Super players played from Rd. 1, or at least from early in the comp.
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[Lee Grant]

LG, you observation about the lineouts raises the question why Chapman isn't getting more game time, is he injured or just out of favour? Question: does Timani's strength in the scrum and (occasional) shifting of rucks outweigh his lineout incompetence and open-field bludging? Personlly, I'd start with Chapman and finish with Timani. But I'm not a coach.

I'm not sure what Cheika thinks about Chapman but I reckon he might have gone off him. He started in his 2nd and 3rd games — against the Rebels and Brumbies — but his minutes since then have dwindled from half an hour down to zero against the Bulls, though he was on the bench at Loftus.

He got about 22 minutes against the Kings but that didn't really count: it was in the Bulls' game that his lineout leadership was missing.

Chapman is not really a Super Rugby lock, by nature; or if he is, he is of the Sam Wykes type: not a bruiser. He could get more time as an 6 with Dennis moving to 8 (because Cheika wants him on the park), but Palu is fit again and has to play.

Meantime, Dennis is the lineout caller, and not a very good one, whereas last year Mumm was OK. It's a pity that Hooper is not a second-rower: he is the smartest guy in the room and would have the Tahs' lineout ticking over nicely now.

I think that Timani should start the game when the grunt work and line-bending is needed.
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[Braveheart81]

Lee Grant - Chapman played just over 20 minutes against the Bulls when he came on for Timani.

With our lineout woes, he should have been on earlier.

 

[Lee Grant]

Oops - Thanks, the ITS stats are wrong - I usually use them because my memory isn't the best.

I knew he was in the 22, and thought he had played, but when I checked, they had him as not playing - and I thought I'd had a senior moment:

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/game-91204.html

They never use the right jersey numbers for reserves; so they are a bit suss aren't they?

Yeah - now I see that the SMH stats have him coming on at 59 mins. I'll use them from now on.

Agree - he should have been on earlier. Juandrè Kruger made mincemeat of Dave Dennis as a lineout boss.

Can anybody remember if Dennis kept on calling the lineout moves for the Tahs after Chapman came on - or did Chappie take over?
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[Inside Shoulder]

we need Oz flyhalves, who can manage a tactical game as well as the running game spawned by our generally dry conditions and hard, sandy soil..
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Hallellujah and amen to your amen to my amen.

 

[Lindommer]

Watched a replay of this match last night, did I see the Tahs run on eight substitutes? Ulugia, Tilse, Ryan, Chapman, McCutcheon, Lucas, Volavola and Kingston. Is it just us in Oz who play 22 man squads?

By the by, hasn't Lucas got a lovely pass? I thought his passing against the Stormers was very good, he looks to have all the time in the world to decide who's going to receive his bullet-like deliveries. This was confirmed to me rewatching the Kings match.

 

[Braveheart81]

Watched a replay of this match last night, did I see the Tahs run on eight substitutes? Ulugia, Tilse, Ryan, Chapman, McCutcheon, Lucas, Volavola and Kingston. Is it just us in Oz who play 22 man squads?

Tilse wasn't in that team. He was just sitting on the sideline watching.

 

[Lindommer]

Coulda sworn I saw him on the paddock late in the second half.