Waratahs v Highlanders - Super Rugby round 3

[I like to watch]

i dont get this call for Horne to move to IC - I thought his attributes related to speed and elusiveness? Neither of those will get much of an outing at IC
There is one justification for playing a 10 at 12 and that is to have a second playmaker available if the 10 is caught in a ruck....when was the last time Hangers took the ball into a ruck?

A playmaking 12 is most effective when he receives the ball from the 10, not when substituting for the 10. A bit more space makes things much easier for a playmaker.

 

[Braveheart81]

There is one justification for playing a 10 at 12 and that is to have a second playmaker available if the 10 is caught in a ruck....when was the last time Hangers took the ball into a ruck?

Hangers has been taking the ball to the line a lot in the first two rounds. He has been making good metres most of the time too.

I've never been a fan, but he's probably strung together his two best games of super rugby so far this season.

 

[fatprop]

i dont get this call for Horne to move to IC - I thought his attributes related to speed and elusiveness? Neither of those will get much of an outing at IC
There is one justification for playing a 10 at 12 and that is to have a second playmaker available if the 10 is caught in a ruck....when was the last time Hangers took the ball into a ruck?

The playmaker argument is somewhat negated by Foley running around at 15. I like two playmakers, but as with Beale, when you have a creative unit at 15, do you really need a third at 12?

Horne has good speed, strong, aggressive defense, a good pass and is unselfish. He also played a lot of 12 as a schoolboy. His pace and defense got him early game time on the wing, then 13. But if he can demonstrate a bit of robustness, I see him as a good 12 option as well, somewhat Horan like.

 

[fatprop]

Hangers?
Surely not!

Dan Parks ... ... ..

 

[Lindommer]

Unless Harris has an Aussie parent or grandparent, he'd still be a year away from qualifying I believe.

He does.

 

[Braveheart81]

Fair enough.

Presumably they met his other grandparent after they moved to Bondi to take up a scaffolding job.

 

[Lindommer]

Can we all get back to dicussing the upcoming Clan/Tahs clash.

 

[andyq]

Pretty sure that Harris is eligible through an Aussie grandmother. I think people aren't super keen on him in Gold because he isn't the runner / passer that QC (Quade Cooper) is. Pretty damn good kicker but... would certainly make my team.

Oh, wait...

Still think Barnes should be playing 10 for the Tahs though. And JOC (James O'Connor) for the Rebs as well. The problem then becomes how to fit all three of those guys and Mikey Harris into the Wallaby setup. Good problem to have though.

reckon the Tahs will have a red-hot go at the Clan but still come up short this weekend, don't think Sarel and Hangers will cope with their space being taken away well enough

 

[Bruce Ross]

Horne has good speed, strong, aggressive defense, a good pass and is unselfish. He also played a lot of 12 as a schoolboy. His pace and defense got him early game time on the wing, then 13. But if he can demonstrate a bit of robustness, I see him as a good 12 option as well, somewhat Horan like.

Isn't it about time this myth was recognised as such? Strong defence? In his Super career since 2008 Rob Horne has attempted 276 tackles and missed 69 of them - exactly 25%.

This season he has attempted 29 tackles and missed nine of them - 31.0% of attempted tackles missed. (Source: Fox Sports Fantasy stats)

 

[Braveheart81]

It's strong and aggressive. Just not very reliable.

 

[Lee Grant]

There is nothing particularly new about getting past the ball, and controlling the space beyond it.

Exactly right. I have mentioned several times that I spent about 8 years in NZ during my high school and Uni years. At high school we were told to step over the ball and keep going; stopping at the ball was the sin of a beginner or a wuss. Of course, the other mob were trying to do the same. When defenders did this half a century later they were to call it counter-rucking.


That was in the ancient time when when players stayed on their feet to push the other side back because hands in the ruck, even by the attacking scrummie, was pinged as if it was in the laws. Of course it was, and still is. Going to ground to protect the ball was plain cheating, like pulling down a maul is now, and offenders got condign punishment from the referee after opponents had finished with them.


That was one of the ways that the All Blacks of the time had it over opponents and though it was always in the armoury of the men in black, the change to the tackled ball law over 50 years ago saw forwards using their hands more at the breakdown before the ruck was formed. To do so players had to stop at the ball and naturally sometimes they couldn't; therefore they started going off their feet and ended up on the wrong side of the pill. If they got away with it, it was the right side.


The days of the ruck moving up the field, ball at the feet like in a loose scrummage, as Craven called it, ended, though a new manoeuvre with the ball up came into vogue. It was called a "maul" and had hitherto been illegal.


Instead of deterring players going to ground referees dealt with this new kind of log jam ruck, by allowing attacking scrummies to put their hands into it to fish the ball out, because it wasn't coming out with feet. Once referees started down that path they changed the game, thinking they were doing the right thing by it.


The age of the specialist fetcher using hands at the breakdown arrived, like a new creature evolving under favourable changes to his environment. Further down the track and notably in the professional era, tacklers started twisting themselves around in the act of tackling so their bodies fell between the ball and opponents. They weren't punished: they hadn't done anything wrong after they hit the ground.


In the last 20 years there were various attempts to keep players on feet, and the several other abominations that branched out from that, but most solutions failed. Nobody was surprised: referees couldn't even get scrummies to throw the ball into the scrum straight.


Going back up the path the game had gone down was difficult so about 6 years ago lawmakers sidestepped to a new path by trying out several revolutionary ELVs. The important one, the free kick sanction for most infractions, failed, because professional referees were too shy to use yellow cards, whereas the amateur refs had not been in earlier trials, which were successful.


Darkness came upon the land; various guidelines were issued without effect, then, to save the kingdom, a comprehensive crackdown on the laws was issued to all the refereeing Frodos. Players were indeed to stay on feet and not kill the ball; they had to support their own weight and yarda, yarda.


I shook my head when hearing this but against the odds the referees took the directive seriously. In Stage II, this year, they even escalated pinging tacklers for falling in the wrong place if they thought it could have been avoided during the act of tackling. If this odd compliance by referees to directives continued, and they even sanctioned the underlying causes of infringements, the fabric of game would change; so the ever pragmatic Kiwis went back to their roots.


Counter-rucking, the old, old practice, had already been taken out of the armoury in the pro era. The law crackdown accelerated its use and revealed its natural progression to pushing past the ball into opponents space. So long as players remained bound this was not a problem; when they become detached from opponents on the other side of the ruck, it was. We are currently watching this space to see if another side path to a dark place is being travelled on.


Australian players at all levels stop at the ball too much; they have to go past it and to do that they have to go in low and push up to stop opponents killing the ball. Players outside of the tight five should learn some srummaging techniques for the counter-ruck; even the pretty ones.
.

 

[Elfster]

Great reading from LG there.

With two kickers - BB and DH - in the team, I am thinking that the Tahs should play the sideline in this game. Use their lineout to effect, though that said I am not sure of the strength of the highlanders lineout for this to be fully feasible.

 

[fatprop]

Australian players at all levels stop at the ball too much; they have to go past it and to do that they have to go in low and push up to stop opponents killing the ball. Players outside of the tight five should learn some srummaging techniques for the counter-ruck; even the pretty ones.
.

A "like" isn't enough I think it is because they don't know what the team is going to do next. They are too slow to re-align for that next phase, so they stop, have a think and hope there isn't a counter ruck

 

[Jets]

I must say this is an exciting prospect of a match. I have always had a soft spot for the Clan and I am a huge fan of Jamie Joseph as a coach. I think that he has managed to introduce some old school hardness in his team in a way that has allowed him to remain connected to the young men in his team. This is a difficult thing to do but the introduction of a guy like Hore and having MacIntosh and Thompson they seem to have the perfect balance. Gee theses guys seem to want to play for each other.

On the other hand I want all of the Australian teams to do well and I think that the Tah's need to be successful for the betterment of Australian rugby. I have always enjoyed watching the Tah's play, even last year when only WJ seemed to. They have the best front row in Australia and some class in the backs. I have liked everything I have seen of Kingston so far and really enjoy watching him each game. I also think Palu is due for a big game and he is a guy that can make a huge impact.

If the Tah's win then it will put other teams on notice that they will be hard to beat. If the Highlanders win then they might be in a better spot to play finals footy.

I'm going to go with the Clan at home but I think it will be very close.

 

[Bowside]

A "like" isn't enough I think it is because they don't know what the team is going to do next. They are too slow to re-align for that next phase, so they stop, have a think and hope there isn't a counter ruck

I very much agree that it occurs because of confusion due to a failure to re-align quickly. Which in itself is just poor support play - another symptomatic weakness in Australian rugby.

Poor realigning is on display every weekend in winter at your local rugby ground. Especially in schoolboys.

 

[Ash]

It's strong and aggressive. Just not very reliable.

Yup, exactly. Lately I've really been noticing Horne seemingly sitting back on his heels as he sets himself for a hit, which allows the attacking player to get past him with an easy step. (He's also fallen off a few, too.)

Tom Carter isn't what I'd call an aggressive defender - you'll rarely see him make a dominant tackle, but he will rarely miss one, either. He plays the percentages with his tackles - he doesn't attempt line up a big hit, for example - and is extremely reliable (in terms of completion) as a result.

With the amount (or importance) of the tackles Horne is missing, I'd pick Carter's style for my team, especially when you're at 13 and one on one tackles are very important. Closer to the ruck, in a congested channel, you can line up big hits and look like a goose if occasionally you fail because you'll have guys either side of you in close. In the 13 channel, you're pretty much isolated and giving away a line break if you fail. Not a good look.

 

[Swat]

Fair enough.

Presumably they met his other grandparent after they moved to Bondi to take up a scaffolding job.

Cheapshot Braveheart, remember most of us are immigrants or their descendants... I like Harris as a playmaker for Aus, who care's where he was born...

 

[waratahjesus]

The Highlanders are playing well, but I really think the jaded folks amongst us forget the heart and resilience the Tahs have. There the heart and soul of the country, representing Australia's first state and first in the hearts of every true blue Australian. Sure the "clan" might be playing well, sure they might be playing at home, sure the Tahs might have a few injuries. Yet reality is, once you pull on that jersey and see the mighty Waratah standing tall upon your heart you grow another inch, find another foot of pace and realize your part of history. NSW by 20.

 

[Swat]

The Highlanders are playing well, but I really think the jaded folks amongst us forget the heart and resilience the Tahs have. There the heart and soul of the country, representing Australia's first state and first in the hearts of every true blue Australian. Sure the "clan" might be playing well, sure they might be playing at home, sure the Tahs might have a few injuries. Yet reality is, once you pull on that jersey and see the mighty Waratah standing tall upon your heart you grow another inch, find another foot of pace and realize your part of history. NSW by 20.

That's absolute rubbish WJ!


Tahs by 30.

 

[waratahjesus]

That's absolute rubbish WJ!


Tahs by 30.

I was giving some respect to the opposition, but really it doesn't matter who they play.

Tahs by plenty.